why tech 15?

[Carlobrand]

... Ah, but those are four high-population TL 15 worlds, fully capable of producing all the spare parts needed to keep a lot of TL 15 starships flying ...

So the interstellar traffic of 272 Imperial worlds with some 256 billion people between them rests on Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora and Trin, the closest of them 10 parsecs from Regina and 18 from Jewell, while the industries of Fournice, Porozlo, Mire, Strouden, Lunion, Efate and other worlds can only look on and be jealous.

Problem 1: canon. Canon notes a number of shipyards at a number of worlds, and says shipyards exist at A and B ports. Imperial Encyclopedia, for example, notes the General yards at Regina, Efate and Pixie (Pixie??? What, is it robotic?). What are these yards doing if all ships are built to TL 15 out of 4 systems? But ... the rules stipulate a TL 15 ship is built at a TL 15 yard.

Problem 2: repairs. Your car needs spark plugs, you can get them almost anywhere, almost any time. Your car needs a damaged cylinder head replaced - that gets a bit more complicated. Routine maintenance, per rule, can be done at Class A or B ports: "Such maintenance ... requires two weeks at a class A or B starport." (Imperial Encyclopedia, pg 89) You still have the basic problem that major repairs will need major parts. Laser shot damaged your maneuver drive? Does the starport have a "cylinder head"? They might - free traders and scouts are pretty common - but if they don't, it's 5 months to request it and have it get to you.

Problem 3: Fournice, Porozlo, et al. There are 28 Imperial worlds of a billion or more population. 9 of them have the tech and starport to compete with the four TL 15s in the shipbuilding industry: Fournice (TL 12), Porozlo (11), Mire (11), Strouden (13), Lunion (13), Efate (13), Vilis (10), Jewell (12), and Palique (14). Of the Imperial hundred-million-pop worlds, an additional 4 meet the requirements: Ffudh (13), Edenelt (11), Adabicci (11), and Regina (12). Does anyone think the commercial interests of those worlds are going to let four worlds monopolize the shipbuilding industry? Let four worlds provide parts for 43 scattered Class-A Imperial starports? Let four worlds construct the sector's entire commercial fleet?

On the other hand, who pays twice as much for an inferior ship, when a better one can be built and shipped to you for less?

Option A: tech level does not apply to shipbuilding. It's more profitable for a world to import equipment for a TL 15 fusion reactor construction factory and a bonded-superdense-armor mill than to see that business go elsewhere, especially when most of the ship's other equipment can be manufactured locally. And, it serves the Imperium's strategic interests. Does anyone doubt the Duke of Regina wouldn't apply Imperial subsidies to help a Regina-based shipyard acquire the equipment to compete with the yards at distant Trin? Kindly ignore the rules.

Option B: tech level does not apply to ship repair, but only the TL 15 worlds build them. Same basic argument as above, the other worlds are importing equipment to manufacture parts - they just can't work high-tech armor, so can't build hulls (or complete power plants, if those are using bonded superdense to help achieve the smaller sizes). Kindly ignore canon.

Option C: all gods' Class-A children make ships, and at their local tech level. Tech level DOES apply to ship repair, and people ARE buying inferior ships at twice the cost because the starports can't import the equipment to do better - no one wants to find themselves stranded on Porozlo with a malfunctioning TL 15 power plant. Kindly ignore common sense.

 

[Carlobrand]

...Why would anyone think a tech-10 ship can have the same performance as a atech-15 ship for little or no mark-up? Gearhead munchkinism? The point is that, because of how the rules describe the setting, the setting should have many many ships,etc. of modest tech levels and not just the ubiquitous tech-15 gear.
-------------------

Why would anyone pay the mark-up when they could have better for less?

The real point is that the rules and the setting conflict with each other. Where tens of millions of credits in potential savings are involved, and where construction times of a year to two years are involved, the commercial interests WILL allow the few weeks of extra time needed to import the TL 15 ships from the distant shipyards - and other commercial interests WILL import whatever equipment is needed to serve those ships, so they can be the ones making the repairs and getting paid for them.

The rules point to a very different setting, while the setting points to very different rules.

 

[Dragoner]

These positions really don't help much.
The first statement then begs the question, if true, "Why doesn't the Third Imperium use tech-18 ships?"
Mirrors reality? .... citation needed.

The second statement may be true, but only if the tech goods are manufactured somewhere and shipped, if not manufactured on the world. Where, if not on one of the only four worlds that have tech-15 goods?

It is interesting that you have trouble with first statement not the second, which is far more troublesome, such as a TL5 world using minimum TL9 ships to import TL5 goods.

The Imperium is TL15, that's why it doesn't make TL18 stuff, because it can't, obviously there is a limit, it makes no sense otherwise, it would be a paradox as the Imperium would then be TL18 max. That is why TL's are overused, people barely understand the concept and then apply them across a broad spectrum. As far as lower TL ships being made in one place, like hulls for various naval vessels then brought to US shipyards to be finished off or the components sent out along with technicians, happens all the time, with all sorts of industries as well, especially weapons systems. Which brings forth another point, why does lower TL stuff exist? You don't see countries producing model T's or clipper ships, instead they buy new cars or ships, same with weapons, no army still uses muskets as standard equipment. The TL disfunction even became worse through the various iterations, TNE had riduculous rules for making muzzle loading cannons. Nitrocellulose is easier to make than black powder and a simple stokes-brandt mortar is far easier to make that a muzzle loading napoleon. That is because technology is often enough an idea how to do something simpler, easier and with a more effective result.

 

[aramis]

Ayup. MT is such an almost-good system. I wish we could just collectively take the thing, rewrite it, and re-release it. Even just finishing some of the details they left out would be nice - like how to integrate the various TL-9 passive detection gear into the space combat system, since it's not entirely unlikely to have a ship using those. MegaTrav-II!

The missing sensor rules are in World Builder's Handbook.

The missing Robot Brain rules and several weapons are in 101 Vehicles.

Oh, and MT trade is essentially CT Bk 7 trade.

 

[rancke]

There is no mixup. The rules as written are quite clear concerning tech levels and repairs. The make no distinction between military and civilian damage.

Because rules very often are simplifications of situations far too complex to take everything into account when all one wants is to have a nice simple game. The fact that the rules do not make any distinction between military and civilian damage (actually between small PC-level ship damage and honking big ship damage) IS the mixup I'm talking about.

"In any situation, repairs to a damaged ship following a battle must be conducted at shipyards of the required tech level ( although it is an option of the referee to make exceptions to this rule)".

That's a quote from TCS, right? TCS does not give rules for small individual PC-crewed ships. That doesn't mean that nothing it says can be used to referee small PC-crewed ships, but it does mean that what it says does not necessarily apply to small PC-crewed ships.

TCS does claim that only worlds with class A and B starports have ship- and boatyards. I claim that the rule in HG proves that it is possible to have some worlds that can build ships and boats despite not having a Class A or B rating. To explain this apparent canon conflict, either one or the other canonical rule must be wrong. Not completely wrong, but partly wrong in certain circumstances. They can't both be absolutely true in the same universe. To take an example, HG allows Zivije (C6B99C-B) to build SDBs, monitors, and Jump-2 ships for its planetary navy[*]. TCS forbids Zivije from building anything. Either Zivije can build ships or it can't. THe two rules can not both be true at the same time.

The explanation that I suggest makes the most sense and makes for the least discrepancy is that starport ratings are linked to the availability of civilian services, and that TCS fails to take into account the possibility of military shipyards that do not cater to civilians. (Though "fail" is not the right word. It's a game rule that makes for a less complicated game and is thus reasonable enough for TCS games.)

Basing capacity on pop is perfect for world-building in that it follows real-world tendencies to service shipping at or near areas with supply/demand.

Assuming a strong correlation between population size and shipyard capacity makes sense. Assuming that the link is absolute does not. An otherwise unoccupied world with a shipyard built and maintained by an outside organization might have a yard capacity around 1T per 10 inhabitants (Because the components are manufactured elsewhere, shipped in, and just assembled there). A "company world" that specializes in building starships with no other significant source of income might have a capacity of around 1T per 100 inhabitants. Many worlds with normal diversified economies would have shipyard capacities in the neighborhood of 1T per 1000 inhabitants (but not, of course, precisely 1T per 1000 inhabitants, whatever the canonical rule in TCS claims). And a world lying right next to one that outcompetes it on the building of large ships might have a single yard that specializes in small ships and have a capacity of far less than 1T per 1000 inhabitants.

I am not so certain that 4 worlds can produce ALL the tech-15 gear used by an entire sector. Perhaps some experiment runs using Pocket Empires might show if that were possible, but I am afraid that I will remain unconvinced until shown otherwise.

As long as you can't show that it's not possible, the default assumption is that it is possible (when world-building in the OTU, of course -- what you do in your own TU is entirely up to you).

Also, if those 4 worlds are producing all that gear for the sector, there would be a great deal of unemployment on lower tech worlds as their goods are not needed?

They're not producing all the gear for the sector. They're producing all the TL 15 gear for the sector. Lower tech worlds will produce lower tech gear that will be used instead of TL 15 gear whenever it is cheaper.

Shipping costs would remain the same per ton for any shipping, eh? It just might involve shipping across more than a couple of subsectors...a more circuitous route of the shipper can only do jump 2 as a far trader might.

The per-jump cost of long-distance shipping is roughly the same for jump-2 and jump-3 traffic (exact figures depend on the specific ship design rules used), so a lot of regular shipping would be by jump-3. Much depends on astrography. There are shipping routes where jump-4 is cheaper than jump-2 and jump-3 (because jump-4 can take shortcuts where jump-2 and jump-3 have to detour or jump short).

So the Dragon Class SDB will actually be fairly rare compared to the other types ( mostly fan-made and unofficial/canon ) ;-)

I think any ship we've seen in any canonical source will actually be fairly rare. Even Type S Scouts work out at no more than an average of 2½ per system in the Spinward Marches.

Or perhaps the setting material chosen ( most things/ships/etc. are tech-15 ) does not logically follow the setting?

Isn't that the same thing?


Hans

 

[rancke]

So the interstellar traffic of 272 Imperial worlds with some 256 billion people between them rests on Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora and Trin, the closest of them 10 parsecs from Regina and 18 from Jewell, while the industries of Fournice, Porozlo, Mire, Strouden, Lunion, Efate and other worlds can only look on and be jealous.

Of course not. The interstellar jump-6 traffic of the Marches does indeed rest on Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora, Trin, and any TL 14 world with space technology a level in advance of its High Common tech level. How much that would amount to is a matter of speculation. Personally, I'd say a few handfuls of passenger ships connecting a small handful of the most important worlds. Others may say 'none' ("Jump-6 is an Imperial military secret"). The interstellar Jump-5 traffic is psread out across the aforementioned plus the TL14 worlds (and TL13 worlds with advanced space technology). There'd certainly be some of those (Jump-5 is definitely not a military secret; Oberlindes Lines has several Jump-5 couriers), but probably not a lot -- Jump-5 is considerably more expensive than Jump-4 and jump-3. Interstellar jump-4 traffic is in the hands of... well, you get the drift, I hope. Civilian jump-4 traffic is canonical and only about 25% more expensive than jump-2 and jump-3, so makes sense for high-end passenger traffic. There are even a few routes where it is cheaper, so some cargo traffic is also indicated. Jump-2 and jump-3 traffic will (logically) be the backbone of long-distance traffic, but by now we're down where TL12 worlds (and even TL11 worlds with advance space technology) can participate.

Problem 1: canon. Canon notes a number of shipyards at a number of worlds, and says shipyards exist at A and B ports. Imperial Encyclopedia, for example, notes the General yards at Regina, Efate and Pixie (Pixie??? What, is it robotic?). What are these yards doing if all ships are built to TL 15 out of 4 systems? But ... the rules stipulate a TL 15 ship is built at a TL 15 yard.

There are indeed a much too large number of canonical worlds with Class A and Class B starports that seem very hard to explain. Pixie is one of my own particular bête noires, though any low-population world with ship or boatyards is a problem (and contrary to the rules of TCS where the smallest population with a shipyard that is actually useful for anything is 100,000 -- a shipyard there can build, repait, or maintain ONE 100T ship at a time. In a TCS game Pixie would be as useful as a nose ring in a Denebian Slime Devil's nose).

Curiously enough, I have problems with more class B starports than I have with class A. Any world with a class B starport in a system without significant space traffic raises the question of who exactly is buying the boats they build[*]. With starships at least you can say that the ships are taken elsewhere and sold.

[*] Please note: I'm not saying that there aren't worlds where that question can be answered satisfactorily; I'm saying that in many cases (but not all) it can't be answered satisfactorily.​

Problem 2: repairs. Your car needs spark plugs, you can get them almost anywhere, almost any time. Your car needs a damaged cylinder head replaced - that gets a bit more complicated. Routine maintenance, per rule, can be done at Class A or B ports: "Such maintenance ... requires two weeks at a class A or B starport." (Imperial Encyclopedia, pg 89).

A TL15 fabrication facility should be able to make smaller parts. Or they could be imported if that was cheaper.

Also, the whole question of maintenance and repair vs. manufacture is problematical. Any rule that links the ability to repair something to the ability to manufacture it has been simplified to the point of being flat out misleading. There is not a single car factory in Denmark, but there are lots and lots of car repair shops.

You still have the basic problem that major repairs will need major parts. Laser shot damaged your maneuver drive? Does the starport have a "cylinder head"? They might - free traders and scouts are pretty common - but if they don't, it's 5 months to request it and have it get to you.

That's a problem with all repairs shops. The routine breakdowns they can deal with straight away, the big problems require factory parts. That's the sort of thing shipping companies has to absorb as the price of doing business and drives fledgeling lines and free traders into bankruptcy.

Major companies may have small stockpiles of major parts for their own ship in strategic locations. If the jump drive of a Tukera Long-Liner breaks down on Jewell, the company representative can get word to Regina in 17 days (two 6-parsecjumps) and a spare drive can be gotten there in four jumps (as soon as a suitable jump-4 freighter can be diverted or hired). Or if it's just an important component of lesser size that needs replacing, they could send it there by regular shipping. Or perhaps a delay like that is unacceptable and they have a stockpile on Jewell.

The thing is, these are problems on a scale lower than the current granularity of the game rules. The fact that the rules do not deal with such problems does not prove that no such problem could possibly exist. It just proves that the rules generalizes to a point where such problems are not dealt with.

Problem 3: Fournice, Porozlo, et al. There are 28 Imperial worlds of a billion or more population. 9 of them have the tech and starport to compete with the four TL 15s in the shipbuilding industry: Fournice (TL 12), Porozlo (11), Mire (11), Strouden (13), Lunion (13), Efate (13), Vilis (10), Jewell (12), and Palique (14). Of the Imperial hundred-million-pop worlds, an additional 4 meet the requirements: Ffudh (13), Edenelt (11), Adabicci (11), and Regina (12). Does anyone think the commercial interests of those worlds are going to let four worlds monopolize the shipbuilding industry?

No. But then, I don't think that the inference you draw from the available evidence that those four worlds monopolizes the shipbuilding is valid.

On the other hand, who pays twice as much for an inferior ship, when a better one can be built and shipped to you for less?

That is a failure of the economic underpinnings of the rules. Reverse the argument and you will conclude that a better ship will not be sold to you for half the price, whatever the rules claim. See the Law of One Price.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

A quick scan of Amazon or Ebay will reveal that the 'Law of One Price' is more of a rule of thumb than a hard reality.

From first hand experience, identical electronics have very different prices in Hong Kong, New York and Kingston (Jamaica).

 

[rancke]

A quick scan of Amazon or Ebay will reveal that the 'Law of One Price' is more of a rule of thumb than a hard reality.

From first hand experience, identical electronics have very different prices in Hong Kong, New York and Kingston (Jamaica).

For something as broad and as badly described as the economics of Traveller universes, rules of thumb are usually plenty good enough. Also, the article mentions that there are exceptions to the rule. However, the exceptions tend to have comprehensible reasons. Less than perfect information on the part of the buyers is one such reason, but not one that seem to apply here. If a starship of exactly the same performance as a TL 12 starship can be built for half the cost at TL15, then either there's a reason why the buyer of the TL12 starship couldn't buy one or he didn't buy the TL12 starship, in which case the TL12 starship wouldn't have been built in the first place. Since the setting material strongly implies that TL12 starships are, in fact, built all over the place all of the time, it follows that for some reason TL15 starships are not available for half the cost, whatever the rules imply.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

It is interesting that you have trouble with first statement not the second, which is far more troublesome, such as a TL5 world using minimum TL9 ships to import TL5 goods.

Why would imports in your example be limited to TL-5? Do you treat it as truth that the Imperium controls trade and thus controls the distribution of technology? ( I feel that the Imperium is a hydraulic empire that controls technology ). Obviously the world may import anything it can afford to pay for.... including TL-15 goods and services, based on many of the arguments being presented here. Of course, that would mean treating Tech Level as a measure of local manufacturing capability.... but then again, that's exactly how Tech Level is used in various meta-games involving economics. And cover the importation of technicians and equipment to service hi-tech ships on a low-tech world. ( else those imported technicians and equipment mgith boost the tech level of the world up just by their presence ).

The Imperium is TL15, that's why it doesn't make TL18 stuff, because it can't, obviously there is a limit, it makes no sense otherwise, it would be a paradox as the Imperium would then be TL18 max.

Wait...what????
You had just said , "I use HG1 rules: "The technological level of the world holding the shipyard governs the construction capabilities: the tech level of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the tech level of the shipyard." Which mirrors realty."
Which would mean that you use the idea of a TL-15 world building TL-18 ships....

 

[rancke]

Obviously the world may import anything it can afford to pay for.... including TL-15 goods and services, based on many of the arguments being presented here. Of course, that would mean treating Tech Level as a measure of local manufacturing capability.... but then again, that's exactly how Tech Level is used in various meta-games involving economics.

No, it would mean treating tech level as the level of technology used by a significant portion of the local population. The local manufacturing capability can be 0 (example: mining colony employing imported machinery to mine stuff to sell, then buying goods from offworld), lower than the tech level of the goods employed (example: agricultural world using local bucolic technology to grow crops, selling the crops, and importing technological goodies from offworld), or the same as the tech level (people buy local goods even if they aren't as good as offworld goods because they don't produce anything that those pesky offworlders is willing to pay for -- at least not pay enough to enable the locals to import enough tech goodies to let the majority of the population enjoy them; the local elite is quite likely to import a little TL15 stuff, but the hoi polloi can't afford to.)

Which is not one of the two or three different canonical definitions, but it is the one that (IMO) is the most useful for referee and player purpose. It is useful for providing answers to the questions "What can I buy here?", "What are people here using?", and "Can I get my broken doohickey repaired here?" (Or, perhaps more likely, "What weapons can I buy here?", "What are people here armed with?", and "Can I get my broken gun repaired here?" )


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

Because rules very often are simplifications of situations far too complex to take everything into account when all one wants is to have a nice simple game. The fact that the rules do not make any distinction between military and civilian damage (actually between small PC-level ship damage and honking big ship damage) IS the mixup I'm talking about.

Only for you, not the rules or the setting. Besides, given how traders are usually armed and armored, there isn't much difference between civilian ships and military ships besides the trade-off between drives and cargo capacity.

That's a quote from TCS, right? TCS does not give rules for small individual PC-crewed ships. That doesn't mean that nothing it says can be used to referee small PC-crewed ships, but it does mean that what it says does not necessarily apply to small PC-crewed ships.

Actually, that bit of rules-quote is from MT Ref's Manual covering repairs to damage taken by a ship.
MT does account for the idea that worlds can build ships for themselves, but using only local resources.

Assuming a strong correlation between population size and shipyard capacity makes sense. Assuming that the link is absolute does not. An otherwise unoccupied world with a shipyard built and maintained by an outside organization might have a yard capacity around 1T per 10 inhabitants (Because the components are manufactured elsewhere, shipped in, and just assembled there). A "company world" that specializes in building starships with no other significant source of income might have a capacity of around 1T per 100 inhabitants. Many worlds with normal diversified economies would have shipyard capacities in the neighborhood of 1T per 1000 inhabitants (but not, of course, precisely 1T per 1000 inhabitants, whatever the canonical rule in TCS claims). And a world lying right next to one that outcompetes it on the building of large ships might have a single yard that specializes in small ships and have a capacity of far less than 1T per 1000 inhabitants.

I mentioned 'shipping', not shipyards directly. A starport covers both shipping concerns ( berthing, freight transfers, etc. ) and ship building. They are not the same thing although Traveller tends to try and lump disparate information into a single letter of code. But it seems reasonable to assume that shipyards will be present nears areas where lots of ships converge. The numbers from TCS ( is it even considered canon? I thought it was not. ) do bother me, because I am basing my ideas on MT's rules. Besides, there were too many "might"'s in your arguments to consider it as solidly based on published materials.

As long as you can't show that it's not possible, the default assumption is that it is possible (when world-building in the OTU, of course -- what you do in your own TU is entirely up to you).
They're not producing all the gear for the sector. They're producing all the TL 15 gear for the sector. Lower tech worlds will produce lower tech gear that will be used instead of TL 15 gear whenever it is cheaper.

I'll just have to see using PE, which is OTU, after all.
And tech 15 gear will nearly always be cheaper than low-tech gear. Or so the arguments have gone here and in the past...

Why would anyone pay the mark-up when they could have better for less?

( the same argument has surfaced during nearly every discussion on the Imperiums macro-economic state )

I think any ship we've seen in any canonical source will actually be fairly rare. Even Type S Scouts work out at no more than an average of 2½ per system in the Spinward Marches.

And yet published materials focus nearly exclusively on hi-tech (14 or 15) ships and vehicles, which give the distinct impression that they are common. And the only ones that can be considered 'canon'.

Isn't that the same thing?

I suppose in that either shows how the setting can generally say "f*** the rules we say describe the setting"... far to often in my opinion.

 

[Dragoner]

Why would imports in your example be limited to TL-5? Do you treat it as truth that the Imperium controls trade and thus controls the distribution of technology? ( I feel that the Imperium is a hydraulic empire that controls technology ). Obviously the world may import anything it can afford to pay for.... including TL-15 goods and services, based on many of the arguments being presented here. Of course, that would mean treating Tech Level as a measure of local manufacturing capability.... but then again, that's exactly how Tech Level is used in various meta-games involving economics. And cover the importation of technicians and equipment to service hi-tech ships on a low-tech world. ( else those imported technicians and equipment mgith boost the tech level of the world up just by their presence ).

Because it's listed as a TL5 system.

Wait...what????
You had just said , "I use HG1 rules: "The technological level of the world holding the shipyard governs the construction capabilities: the tech level of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the tech level of the shipyard." Which mirrors realty."
Which would mean that you use the idea of a TL-15 world building TL-18 ships....

No, by that logic it would would a TL18 world and then be able to build TL21 ships and then so on ad nauseum; thus logically there has to be an upper limit.

 

[Ishmael]

For something as broad and as badly described as the economics of Traveller universes, rules of thumb are usually plenty good enough. Also, the article mentions that there are exceptions to the rule. However, the exceptions tend to have comprehensible reasons. Less than perfect information on the part of the buyers is one such reason, but not one that seem to apply here. If a starship of exactly the same performance as a TL 12 starship can be built for half the cost at TL15, then either there's a reason why the buyer of the TL12 starship couldn't buy one or he didn't buy the TL12 starship, in which case the TL12 starship wouldn't have been built in the first place. Since the setting material strongly implies that TL12 starships are, in fact, built all over the place all of the time, it follows that for some reason TL15 starships are not available for half the cost, whatever the rules imply.

This does not take into account the "Penn Effect" or the "Balassa-Samuelson Effect" which are conditions where the rule of one price may fail.
It also assumes a constant supply and demand ratio.
Nor does it cover total cost of ownership ( which would include maintenance costs and the idea of the necessity of visiting one of the four worlds in the Marches that can service a TL-15 jump drive.)
Or that the cheaper TL-15 ship has its price marked-up to gain extra profit from building a ship identical to a TL-12 ship, but using TL-15 materials/manufacturing techniques.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balassa–Samuelson_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_effect

 

[Ishmael]

Because it's listed as a TL5 system.

Yay! A world whose technological progress is being artificially retarded through trade, which the Third Imperium is said to promote. Imperial propaganda failure? or just incompetence? or is the Imperium controlling its member worlds through control of their economies and innovation....
(Clearly the Vilani protect their intellectual properties so rabidly that they make Microsoft and Apple look like pikers.)

No, by that logic it would would a TL18 world and then be able to build TL21 ships and then so on ad nauseum; thus logically there has to be an upper limit.

Hey...you said you used those rules
And
you said it mirrors reality.

so again
WAIT...WHAT???

 

[Dragoner]

Yay! A world whose technological progress is being artificially retarded through trade, which the Third Imperium is said to promote. Imperial propaganda failure? or just incompetence? or is the Imperium controlling its member worlds through control of their economies and innovation....
(Clearly the Vilani protect their intellectual properties so rabidly that they make Microsoft and Apple look like pikers.)


Hey...you said you used those rules
And
you said it mirrors reality.

so again
WAIT...WHAT???

No, the illogical interpetation is not mine.

 

[Dragoner]

Nor does it cover total cost of ownership ( which would include maintenance costs and the idea of the necessity of visiting one of the four worlds in the Marches that can service a TL-15 jump drive.)

So why doesn't the world just import a automated 3D printer to make the spares and do the maintenance itself? Or maybe the TL15 worlds also have mobile repair ships? Nowhere do the rules state anything about these subjects, what went wrong?!?

 

[rancke]

This does not take into account the "Penn Effect" or the "Balassa-Samuelson Effect" which are conditions where the rule of one price may fail.

How would the Penn Effect prevent half-priced TL 15 ships from outselling TL12 ships unless there were something else going on? (Which, incidentally, is what I'm arguing is the case; I'm saying that something must be preventing the Law of One Price from applying, thus making commercial TL 9-14 shipbuilding viable.)

The Balassa-Samuelson Effect does not apply because starships are, in fact, tradable.

It also assumes a constant supply and demand ratio.

It does? How?

Nor does it cover total cost of ownership ( which would include maintenance costs and the idea of the necessity of visiting one of the four worlds in the Marches that can service a TL-15 jump drive.)

Any Class A and B starport is capable of servicing a TL 15 jump drive, as long as you're talking about maintenance only. The rules expressly say so. They say that annual maintenance is available at any class A and B starport[*], with no mention of any tech level restrictions.

[*] Indeed, it should be possible to have maintenance performed at some class C starports (starports that for some reason don't build boats but have invested in the tools to maintain ships). Not explicitly provided for in the rules, but nevertheless a logical ramification). ​

Or that the cheaper TL-15 ship has its price marked-up to gain extra profit from building a ship identical to a TL-12 ship, but using TL-15 materials/manufacturing techniques.

Such a mark-up would be a manifestation of the Law of One Price.


Hans

 

[rancke]

So why doesn't the world just import a automated 3D printer to make the spares and do the maintenance itself? Or maybe the TL15 worlds also have mobile repair ships? Nowhere do the rules state anything about these subjects, what went wrong?!?

The game rules that dealt with the subject were simplified for the sake of gamability, that's what went wrong. Though I don't think it's actually gone wrong unless you (generic 'you') fail to take into consideration that the rules ARE simplifications of a mind-bogglingly complex fictional reality. (It's a fictional reality that is conceptually every bit as complex as Real Life, and Real Life is quite often mind-bogglingly complex).


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Gents, there is some canon (TCS?) that helps with the issue of varying TL manufacture. There is a TL conversion factor for prices. Basically and from memory the default value is the TL15 Credit, that is what everything is built at with the rules, even if it isn't a TL15 product. Then to find the actual value you adjust for the manufacturing TL, subtracting 5% per TL below TL15, again iirc. So two ships built for the same cost, say a TL15 J1 Trader and a TL9 J1 Trader will sell at different prices. The TL15 model will sell at 100% the cost, while the TL9 model will sell at 70% the cost, if my memory of the exchange rate is correct at 5% per step. Personally I don't think that is enough on it's own, but it helps. Double that would be better imo, making the TL9 ship available for 40% the cost.

 

[Dragoner]

The game rules that dealt with the subject were simplified for the sake of gamability, that's what went wrong. Though I don't think it's actually gone wrong unless you (generic 'you') fail to take into consideration that the rules ARE simplifications of a mind-bogglingly complex fictional reality. (It's a fictional reality that is conceptually every bit as complex as Real Life, and Real Life is quite often mind-bogglingly complex).


Hans

That 'what went wrong?' is from math and engineering textbooks.

The reality is that the rules are over-interpeted (we agree, to be precise); however, as much as it is futuristic, the economics becomes a disconnect between applying today's scarcity economics to what would be in the future a most probably post-scarcity society which (IMTU) put at TL12+. TL's work if one looks at them from an arbitrary viewpoint of a TL15 created in an academic manner, which of course fail when actually applied. TL conceptually has become a sort of frankenstein monster gamewise as the different iterations have run with it.

What about a ship with different TL components, why reinvent the wheel at each TL? We don't do that today.