• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Civilian Wheeled Vehicles [IMTU]

I have a Classic Traveller PbP game ["BACKWATER"] that takes place on a TL 11 world in a TL 10-13 Universe. Many worlds in Traveller Worldgen have a POP that will require settlements to be located too far apart to make paved roads economical. Grav tech is too expensive for most people [using STRIKER/Megatraveller]. I needed a better selection of WHEELED vehicles optimized for DIRT ROADS and OFF-ROAD travel. Using DOD data for speeds as a starting point, I created some Civilian Vehicles for my worlds. I REALLY do not want to get into the HOUSE RULES on more realistic fuel consumption that was incorporated into them, or why I rounded the prices up to the nearest convenient figure ... so these are just presented as ART for you to love, hate, use or ignore as the spirit moves you ...

001.jpg
 
Yeah that bothered me, too. The issue is they are ENGINE SIZED for 40kph OFF-ROAD speed, so the performance is LOW by modern ROAD BIKE ... so STRIKER places most of the cost in the ENGINE.

When I compared the prices of the MOPED (where I started) ... Vespas needed about 3-4 times the price. On the other hand, "Scooters" from China and India could be had for about that price. I found that the different engine choices (TL 6) Improved Internal Combustion, (TL 7) Gas Turbine, (TL 8) MHD Turbine ... made only minimal difference. I went with FUEL CELLS (TL 8 in ROBOTS) because the world had a Hydrogen Infrastructure for the Starships, so it didn't NEED Hydrocarbons. The alternatives made minimal difference (mostly range due to weight) and the prices were comparable for the same performance.

That's where a spreadsheet helps.

For an example, a Cr 200 scooter is a bit over $1000 today. Here is a $900 scooter (TL 7.5) from Amazon ...
View attachment 5504
Hmm well it depends more on one’s take on economics than the vehicles per se. Yes the 5:1 ratio prices out that way, but the fuel cell vehicles are more capable then the Chinese TL now scooter. I tend to factor in more capability as costing more, if nothing else on market desirability.

The econo urban scooter is maybe a good arguing point for not adding the zero, but just pricing premium off-road motorcycles those are going for $9000 up. Cr2000 would be reasonable.

The classic CT ground car goes for Cr4000, $20000 today which just gets an econo sedan. These are off roading so should come at premiums.

The near ATV set looks right to me.
 
Hmm well it depends more on one’s take on economics than the vehicles per se. Yes the 5:1 ratio prices out that way, but the fuel cell vehicles are more capable then the Chinese TL now scooter. I tend to factor in more capability as costing more, if nothing else on market desirability.

The econo urban scooter is maybe a good arguing point for not adding the zero, but just pricing premium off-road motorcycles those are going for $9000 up. Cr2000 would be reasonable.

The classic CT ground car goes for Cr4000, $20000 today which just gets an econo sedan. These are off roading so should come at premiums.

The near ATV set looks right to me.
Taking a quick look at New Zealand prices, and seeing that CT says Cr4,000 for a car (MT says Cr3100), which is about 10% of what you'd need here and now, and seeing dirt bikes going for NZD3K to NZD16K, depending largely on engine size, the OP's car and bike prices look fine to me.
 
Taking a quick look at New Zealand prices, and seeing that CT says Cr4,000 for a car (MT says Cr3100), which is about 10% of what you'd need here and now, and seeing dirt bikes going for NZD3K to NZD16K, depending largely on engine size, the OP's car and bike prices look fine to me.
We’re talking about using the standard for CT pricing as being 1977 dollars. Apparently Miller just got catalogs out and took prices from them 1:1. Inflation makes prices now roughly 5x what they were, so that’s the basis of that part of the discussion.
 
We’re talking about using the standard for CT pricing as being 1977 dollars. Apparently Miller just got catalogs out and took prices from them 1:1. Inflation makes prices now roughly 5x what they were, so that’s the basis of that part of the discussion.
It works out the same ... USD 1 in 1977 = USD 5.40 in 2024 = NZD 9 in 2024. So Rupert is using Cr 1 = NZD 10 the way we use Cr 1 = USD 5.
 
It works out the same ... USD 1 in 1977 = USD 5.40 in 2024 = NZD 9 in 2024. So Rupert is using Cr 1 = NZD 10 the way we use Cr 1 = USD 5.
Also, I checked some current local car prices, and NZD30-40K will get you a new car. A Toyota Corolla or the like, so main-stream, basic, but new. So a 10:1 ratio of NZD to Cr seems fair for cars and such like items. You'd probably need to use other ratios for things like food and housing, just as you would in other countries.
 
IIRC, The ground car is the ford pinto 1976 list price as quoth in Popular Mechanics, rounded.
The Chevy Nova had a MSRP of $3,250-$3,970 in 1976 and $3,485-$4,150 in 1977.

From the 1975 New York Times:
DETROIT. Sept. 18—The Ford Motor Company announced today that a special 1976 model of its subcompact Pinto would be priced at $2,895, making it the lowest‐priced car built in the United States.
It will be $3 below the American Motors Corporation's Gremlin (tentatively priced at $2,898) and $4 less than a stripped‐down version of the Chevette—designed to carry two passengers and called the Scooter (priced at $2,899).
Ford's move is aimed primarily at strengthening its competitive position in relation to the Chevette, the new minicar introduced by the General Motors Corporation two days ago.
Lee A. Iaccoca, president of Ford, said in announcing the new Pinto that “It is America's lowest‐sticker priced domestically produced automobile—and the back seat comes at no extra charge.” (In the lowpriced version of the Chevette. a back seat is available as an option.)
[It is just so cool that we can Google this information now.]
 
Last edited:
What's the primary production cost driver for cars?

As I understand it, regulations, weight, and electronics; plus the requisite software.

Also, if you pay for it, optional features can be unlocked, like air conditioning, and heating.
 
What's the primary production cost driver for cars?

As I understand it, regulations, weight, and electronics; plus the requisite software.

Also, if you pay for it, optional features can be unlocked, like air conditioning, and heating.
In Striker, it is far and away "the engine".

Here is a typical Ford F-150 Pickup [3000 kg GVWR]

ITEM (Kilograms) [Credits]
wheel suspension (400) [500]
TL5 IC engine (1260) [5040]
transmission (95) [142]
hydrocarbon fuel (705) [221]
body shell (223) [223]
TOTALS (2683) [6125]

ITEM (Kilograms) [Credits]

wheel suspension (400) [500]
TL 6 improved IC engine (788) [1575]
transmission (95) [142]
hydrocarbon fuel (544) [170]
body shell (223) [223]
TOTALS (2050) [2610]

ITEM (Kilograms) [Credits]

wheel suspension (400) [500]
TL 7 gas turbine engine (536) [2517]
transmission (95) [142]
hydrocarbon fuel (423) [132]
body shell (223) [223]
TOTALS (1677) [3514]

ITEM (Kilograms) [Credits]

wheel suspension (400) [500]
TL 8 MHD engine (394) [3938]
transmission (95) [142]
hydrocarbon fuel (363) [113]
body shell (223) [223]
TOTALS (1474) [4916]

"Feature" or "bug" ... it is what it is and Striker is the DNA for both MegaTraveller and TNE:FF&S, so it carries through editions.
 
Also, if you pay for it, optional features can be unlocked, like air conditioning, and heating.
rant triggered...
That's a new thing; in the old days of the 60's to early 90's, they didn't install things with subscriptions and/or unlock fees; if it was an option, ordering it required the dealer to install it, or to order it from the factory with those specific options added. About the only exception was FM Radio... that was pretty stadard.

AC was a physical module not included unless you paid for it.

Heating was required by law in many states. Alaska, in the cities with Emmissions checks, the heater not working meant either having seasonal tags (can't be used from 1 Oct to 1 Apr) or not being allowed on road at all. It's essential for winter driving, and without it, the windows rapidly become opaque.

Alaska required dealers to ensure there was a working AM radio in new cars - needed for road closure notices and emergency instructions. Oregon expects you to have AM radio, same reason, but I'm not sure if it's required as it is in Alaska, but it is expected.

I remember emergency buttons (specifically OnStar) hitting in the 90s; a lookup shows OnStar being in operation from 1996 until 2024.

CB radios were available from the dealer in some models, nicely mounted into the dash, and a thinner than standard AM/FM above it.

OnStar was the first feature I recall being pay-to-enable and installed in all of the models it was available in. There are certain concerns about pay-to-enable... very few consumers like it, even as they use it.

It also ties into the Right to Repair movement; is it unlawful to unlock features without paying on the hardware that aren't enabled? Subscription radio, sat or VHF, you're basically renting the decrypt keys.
 
With satellite internet and a credit card, you could unlock heating when you're stuck in the middle of a blizzard.

On a frontier world, you probably do want a pseudo tank, so with increased weight, you need a more powerful engine, and a bigger chassis to compensate for that.

There are two ways to look at it: you only pay for stuff you want, for as long as you want, or it's shrinkflation.
 
What about aircraft? The smaller ones aren't terribly expensive, and for some needs speed is a consideration.

Toyota Hilux is very popular in the rougher parts of the modern world for pretty much the same reason wagons were more popular than horse and carriage in such setting in an earlier era, which is to say the trucks you've designed are likely to be more common than the passenger vehicles. They're useful work vehicles, people can always ride in the bed if needed - not comfortable but working folk in such areas tend to put utility ahead of comfort, and if you own a dual use vehicle then you don't need to buy a dedicated person-carrier.
 
There are two ways to look at it: you only pay for stuff you want, for as long as you want, or it's shrinkflation.
In my opinion there is only one way to see it. It is shrinkflation (I would have used a stronger word but I do not want to be banned).

The number of things that have been taken away while the costs have gone up is crazy. The insane greed that has taken over is not, in any way, excusable under some fake excuse like "pay for what you want. The cost of the car didn't go down. The cost of the computer did not go down, the cost of the food did not go down. But the services, volume, and value have.
 
Back
Top