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Yes, another "Impressions and Questions" thread

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As a fair warning to players in general and mine in specific: Following Supplement Four's General Rule of Thumb for T5 Players is most def Meta-gaming the odds and will be punished by the Gods of FairPlay. Be thou warned! :eek:mega:

Some referees are By-the-Book referees. Thrust me, I used to play with one such referee (and a great deal of fun we had too). Others are not graduates of the Referee Academy and don't have the skills to spot and prevent meta-gaming.

Bottom line: Relying on referees to correct the flaws of game rules is an utter, total, complete, and egregious fallacy and I'm sick and tired of seeing it propounded over and over again! :nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono:

Of course, I'm toning down my true feelings in order not to come across as loud and rude.


Hans
 
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Not sure what kind of locked storage you are familiar with but most of the ones I have come across do not have locks on the interior, just on the exterior next to the door. See, this is where we start having problems, we have some different standards on such simple things as what constitutes a locked heavy storage room. But still, silly as I think the lock placement is I will let that slide for now.

It's not silly at all, from my point of view. It's a Mark IIIa Vilani storage lock, provided on the world of Aramis, where, 23 years ago, they passed a law that mandates that all storage lockers have the locks on both sides of the door. There was an incident, where two teenagers, who worked at an establishment where the storage locker was in an unused part of the building, inadvertently locked themselves inside the locker in order to conduct some hanky-panky. The problem is, they couldn't get out. They went missing, and eventually died of thirst. The locker was checked, but no one actually went inside the locker to search for the kids when the searcher saw that the electronic lock was engaged.

Crazy, but crazy things happen. It's a big universe. Had there been a lock on the inside, the two could have freed themselves.

Since, the Marquis of Aramis has decreed a law that storage lockers must have access on both sides of the door.

BTW, I was thinking of the storage locker that Luke Skywalker was kept in, in Timothy Zahn's Star Wars novel, Heir to the Empire. That locker had two electronic pads, one inside and one outside. Luke escaped by working on the lock from the inside.





So, where are they getting the tools? Screws are notoriously difficult to remove with merely fingers.

Screws are not used. It's an adhesive holding the face of the lock onto the circuitry. But, since the storage locker is old, the adhesive is dry, weak, and cracked. With some determined effort, the Ref rules that the face can be pulled off (and this was made clear in the example).



Right, so what is the big deal, a 2.5% better chance to achieve the same result with pure luck and less Skill? Again, that does not bother me and does not seem like it is broken.

I'm not arguing that SS, at 2.5% better, is a problem. I made it bold to use it as the base point for comparison to the other outcomes.



Now see here is where we start having real problems. That first sentence should end at "Impossible" and not continued with any thing after that word since that would imply they could even attempt it.

That's not T5, though. The task system includes tasks that are harder than Impossible. Look at page 128.

Impossible = 7D
Beyond Impossible = 8D
Hasty Beyond Impossibe = 9D
Double Hasty Beyond Impossible = 10D

And, the TiH rule can always add a die to difficulty, regardless if the difficulty category is named in the book. If you've got a 10D Double Hasty Beyond Impossible task, and the TiH rule kicks in, then you're throwing 11D on your task.



Ziip isn't even getting to work with the e-lock other than randomly pushing buttons with his nose and praying to Lords of Space that he gets out. Or, he could attempt the not so impossible task of escaping the manga-cuffs and then see if he can crack the lock.

He raises his arms behind him, feels for the face of the keypad, tears that off, and deals with the wires, attempting to hot-wire the lock.






As I stated above, he has no chance till he escapes the cuffs.

No chance at all?

In the example, only a Spectacular Success will save the guy in cuffs. Every other outcome will not.

I thought you were accusing ME of not allowing the characters to be BIG DAMN HEROES!

BDH's have a chance to escape in cuffs.






I'M GOING TO STOP HERE.

It's clear to me that, no matter what I say, you will just argue against the example and ignore the problem with T5's SS rule.

Hey, if you want to play with a broken rule, then more power to ya.

Good luck.
 
Bottom line: Relying on referees to correct the flaws of game rules is an utter, total, complete, and egregious fallacy and I'm sick and tired of seeing it over and over again! :nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono:

There comes a point when you have to house-rule so much of a 700 page book that you would have been better off just writing your own game from scratch.
 
Bottom line: Relying on referees to correct the flaws of game rules is an utter, total, complete, and egregious fallacy and I'm sick and tired of seeing it propounded over and over again! :nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono:




Hans
I completely agree.
 
No, he doesn't, he gets a roll and an easier one since he has Electronics-3 a simple storage room door lock is pretty easy for him. It is more likely a mere 3D roll. And again Ziip the Cuffed does not get a roll versus the e-lock.

BTW, this caught my eye.

As a Ref, you lower or raise difficulty dependent on skill?

That's a strange practice for a Ref.

Basically, you're double dipping on the benefit or penalty to the character.



If the task to short-circuit an electronic lock is a 3D Difficult task...

Then, the 777777, Electronics-1 character has a (TiH rule) 5% chance of success (not counting SS).

And, the 777777, Electronics-3 character has a 50% chance of success (not counting SS).




See....most Ref's don't change the task based on skill level. That's what skill level is for--to give the character the benefit of his expertise on the same task as everyone else.



What you seem to be doing, given your comment above, is changing difficulty based on skill level, to something like this...

777777, Electronics-1 character has a 4D task, because he's not skilled enough, which is increased to 5D because of the TiH rule.

But, the 777777, Electronics-3 character should be able to easily hot wire the lock, so you give him a different task than the character above. This character will get a 2D task to hot wire the lock.



I think that's really strange (and not how the T5 task system is meant to be used, btw).
 
There comes a point when you have to house-rule so much of a 700 page book that you would have been better off just writing your own game from scratch.

Not if that 700 page book is well-thought-out, well written, with rules that make sense. Then, you just spend your time learning the game, rather then re-writing it, and play.
 
There comes a point when you have to house-rule so much of a 700 page book that you would have been better off just writing your own game from scratch.

I have about a dozen of those on my hard drive.

The problem is that in a super saturated market, nobody cares unless you have some name brand recognition.
 
Come on, Hans...

As a fair warning to players in general and mine in specific: Following Supplement Four's General Rule of Thumb for T5 Players is most def Meta-gaming the odds and will be punished by the Gods of FairPlay. Be thou warned! :eek:mega:

Some referees are By-the-Book referees. Thrust me, I used to play with one such referee (and a great deal of fun we had too). Others are not graduates of the Referee Academy and don't have the skills to spot and prevent meta-gaming.

Bottom line: Relying on referees to correct the flaws of game rules is an utter, total, complete, and egregious fallacy and I'm sick and tired of seeing it propounded over and over again! :nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono:

Of course, I'm toning down my true feelings in order not to come across as loud and rude.

Hans
Dude, there is noob GM and then there is letting players obviously cheat the system. I just can not see any GM worth two cents letting a player character disarm a bomb with no tools and wearing a blindfold! Seriosuly, Hans would you have let that fly even as a noob GM. Me, in those days would have been like "No EOD skills, no disarm bomb!", but I was a bit a of a hater GM back in the day. I have loosened up since then and let the players have more agency, so now I would let them attempt it with no Skills or Tools, but also, no Blindfold.

Look I have no problems with legit issues, hell, I only dealt with a limited set of systems, so I concede a lot. Like a the 1D pistol v. NPC which does seem sorta broke even if you don't use the Mook rule, which I don't because I am all sorts of anal retentive about keeping track of who is how wounded. The base pistol should be like 2D, it may not kill but it should hurt. And sadly, CharGen has some serious order issues which I have made note of. So, it is not like I am saying it is flawless, Hells I still have issues with there not being enough orders of Knighthood and even more some Ranks in those Orders of Chivalry. But hey that is what funky house rules are for. :D

But what Supp4 keeps doing is taking the rules and then coming up with the most ludicrous scenarios to exploit to him major flaw. I take issue with a fellow Referee saying "If you cheat the rules favor you so cheat!"! Supp4 is not some rookie Ref, he is an old hand from the tales he tells (his pirate story still sort of haunts me) so for him to take to using this tack to explain what he perceives as a flaw is wrong and I am calling him out.

Also, I am not sure he understand what the difference between Electronics-1 and Electronics-3 and boy oh boy do I want to get captured in his game, they guards are very bad at their jobs. :devil:
 
For real, changing the task now? *shakes head* Shame on you, Supp4.

BTW, this caught my eye.

As a Ref, you lower or raise difficulty dependent on skill?

That's a strange practice for a Ref.

Basically, you're double dipping on the benefit or penalty to the character.

If the task to short-circuit an electronic lock is a 3D Difficult task...

Then, the 777777, Electronics-1 character has a (TiH rule) 5% chance of success (not counting SS).

And, the 777777, Electronics-3 character has a 50% chance of success (not counting SS).

See....most Ref's don't change the task based on skill level. That's what skill level is for--to give the character the benefit of his expertise on the same task as everyone else.

What you seem to be doing, given your comment above, is changing difficulty based on skill level, to something like this...

777777, Electronics-1 character has a 4D task, because he's not skilled enough, which is increased to 5D because of the TiH rule.

But, the 777777, Electronics-3 character should be able to easily hot wire the lock, so you give him a different task than the character above. This character will get a 2D task to hot wire the lock.

I think that's really strange (and not how the T5 task system is meant to be used, btw).
Really, when does hot-wire become short circuit, because those are two separate tasks, they do different things. See hot-wiring is making the device function without proper authority. Short-circuiting it is just breaking it (which generally causes it to stay in whatever condition it was in when it got broke, but again, I'll let that slide and they fail-open even though they are supposed to be secure storage and thus fail-close to keep burglars out or in). Breaking requires no skill whatsoever and all the characters could easily attempt this.

See I thought when you said "hot-wire" and "re-wire" you meant reconfigure the circuit so the door would open, an easy task for a sophont with Electronics-3, but a more difficult one for the sophont with Electronics-1. The greater skill means more experience and better knowledge base thus an easier difficulty. Oh and all this ignores the duration. All the characters could eventually get some serious rolls to escape given time and all of them could get caught messing with the mysterious locks that are on the outside and inside, but can't actually open the door because it is being used as a cell, but it has locks on the inside because some kids starved because they couldn't escape the locked room...

Yeah, sounds like this is more an issue with math than an actual session result. And quit trying to move the goal posts, it looks like maybe you aren't as sure as you think. Seriously, Supplement Four I conceded a lot in your example that in a real game I would have never let fly, like disarming bombs with blindfolds on (for non-Aware sophonts, it might actually help one with Awareness) and "safety" locks that can't just be opened by a big red button saying EMERGENCY OPEN! PUSH IF TRAPPED! HELP WILL ARRIVE SHORTLY! DON'T PANIC! or perhaps like the man-trap at work a more friendly OPEN..

Look, saying you think the math is broke is one thing. Saying the math is broke if you cheat the system with ridiculous modifiers is plain another.

And again, I do not see this as a bug. What is so bad about characters have Lady Luck grace them with a boon of Spectacular Success when they attempt the heroic tasks that neither of us (me for sure) dare undertake, like disarming (or more properly rendering safe, though by that logic it means blow the damned thing up and poke through the wreckage to see how it worked) a live bomb?

And just ripping wires out of the lock pad's internals is a straight 1D task for the Electronics-N folks and Ziip once he gets the cover off his, which is at least at 3D task since he is in cuffs and working by touch and loses some power to pull at the cover due to the strain on his arms. Unless he has Athletics, then it is just time and maybe a smidge sore from exertion, but it comes off quicker and at 2D since it is just a Strength feat at that point, "grab and yank!".

EDIT: By the way, you seem to have skipped the part where I say once he slipped the cuffs he had a chance to work the lock. I wish you would read the parts where I actually do concede a point or two to you. Sometimes even without snark, and slipping the cuffs was one. Geez, man I am trying to be accommodating, but you do some times make it a rough thing to do some times. :p
 
Dude, there is noob GM and then there is letting players obviously cheat the system. I just can not see any GM worth two cents letting a player character disarm a bomb with no tools and wearing a blindfold! Seriosuly, Hans would you have let that fly even as a noob GM.
I'm not a by-the-book referee.

And S4 is exaggerating for effect, to illustrate the problem. You're fixating on the admittedly ludicrous example, but, seriously Craig, can't you appreciate that there are going to be times where the effect is going to be less blatant but still give the more handicapped character a better chance to succeed than the less handicapped character?


Hans
 
Dude, there is noob GM and then there is letting players obviously cheat the system.

I don't understand how this is a case of the GM letting players cheat the system if it is the system that is allowing the players to "cheat".( huh? the player would be trying to follow rules-as-written )
In order to prevent such occurrences, you are essentially telling the GM to cheat the system to get the desired effect. Anytime the GM has to cheat the system, there is a potential flaw in the system itself.

Personally, I think the system for spectacular anything is wrong.
It should be based on how much a roll beat or missed the task target number ( which imho is the level needed to just get the task done ). Succeed by a lot, then the success is spectacular; fail by a lot, the failure is spectacular.

*I don't own or play T5. I am just an interested party following the conversations about it.
 
Dude, there is noob GM and then there is letting players obviously cheat the system. I just can not see any GM worth two cents letting a player character disarm a bomb with no tools and wearing a blindfold!
I have no strong opinions about T5 (one way or the other) ... simplified makers are sort of a good idea; I am not a real big fan of variable dice; some of the starship stuff sounds interesting ... so sort of a mixed bag for me.

However, I think that rules do matter and tend to color the 'flavor' of a game. In AD&D-1ed, everyone who could use a long sword and shield, did use a long sword and shield because the game mechanics favor that particular weapon combination above all others and the published adventures contained more and better magic long swords and shields than other items. For a player to recognize that and act accordingly is not "cheating the system" IMHO.

In the same way, the T5 rules as written do favor spectacular success as the best way to accomplish a difficult task ... the more over-the-top the attempted task, the better the statistical odds of success. I see it as inappropriate to want to punish players for attempting super-heroic tasks when the rules encourage such actions. IMHO, simply embrace that T5 subtly rewards McGyver behavior and accept that it is part of the flavor of T5 (like playing a super-hero game) or create a house rule to change it.

It bothers Supplement Four that the rules work this way. It bothers you that a player might try to exploit the rules that work this way. Strictly IMHO, but if it bothers Marc that his rules work this way, then he should change them. If it doesn't bother Marc that the rules work this way, then that is how the rules work in T5 ... larger than life is encouraged ... and you and S4 are free to house-rule how things work in your game and at your table. I don't say that to be flippant, more a "that's how the universe works" statement of fact.

For me, I prefer the simplicity of the UGM in Classic Traveller over all of those different targets and modifiers ... so that's what I use at my table. That doesn't change the 'official Classic Traveller' rules, or make them broken ... I just prefer a different flavor of ice-cream. :)
 
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Personally, I think the system for spectacular anything is wrong.
It should be based on how much a roll beat or missed the task target number ( which imho is the level needed to just get the task done ). Succeed by a lot, then the success is spectacular; fail by a lot, the failure is spectacular.

I like that thinking as well.





And S4 is exaggerating for effect, to illustrate the problem. You're fixating on the admittedly ludicrous example, but, seriously Craig, can't you appreciate that there are going to be times where the effect is going to be less blatant but still give the more handicapped character a better chance to succeed than the less handicapped character?

Exactly. Insert whatever example makes sense to you.





For me, I prefer the simplicity of the UGM in Classic Traveller over all of those different targets and modifiers ... so that's what I use at my table.

Yeah! The UGM!! :D
 
It bothers Supplement Four that the rules work this way. It bothers you that a player might try to exploit the rules that work this way. Strictly IMHO, but if it bothers Marc that his rules work this way, then he should change them. If it doesn't bother Marc that the rules work this way, then that is how the rules work in T5 ... larger than life is encouraged ... and you and S4 are free to house-rule how things work in your game and at your table. I don't say that to be flippant, more a "that's how the universe works" statement of fact.
It seems to have bothered most of those in the playtest forum, too. A game designer who ignores his playtesters isn't doing a good job.
 
It seems to have bothered most of those in the playtest forum, too. A game designer who ignores his playtesters isn't doing a good job.
That depends on the perceived 'job description' of a 'game designer' ... doubly so for a Traveller game designer. ;)

'Ignoring' criticism is usually foolish ... no argument from me on that account. However, one could reasonably argue that the job of a game designer is to design the game that he envisions, which could mean that there are times when he will hear the criticism and the alternatives and choose to do something 'his way'. For good or bad. Our options are then to vote with our dollars and house rule in our games.

I don't happen to care for the way spectacular success works and actually like S4's suggested solution ... but I am not the publisher of T5, so my vote doesn't really count (except for moral support). Marc is the publisher, so for better or worse, his is the ultimate deciding vote.
 
That depends on the perceived 'job description' of a 'game designer' ... doubly so for a Traveller game designer. ;)

'Ignoring' criticism is usually foolish ... no argument from me on that account. However, one could reasonably argue that the job of a game designer is to design the game that he envisions, which could mean that there are times when he will hear the criticism and the alternatives and choose to do something 'his way'. For good or bad. Our options are then to vote with our dollars and house rule in our games.

I don't happen to care for the way spectacular success works and actually like S4's suggested solution ... but I am not the publisher of T5, so my vote doesn't really count (except for moral support). Marc is the publisher, so for better or worse, his is the ultimate deciding vote.
If the buying public rejects it, the design is worthless.

A designer's task is to design something that others will play and use.
 
If the buying public rejects it, the design is worthless.

A designer's task is to design something that others will play and use.

It has been said that the market is flooded with game materials. Could this be said of 90% of the games out there? Most are what the designer wanted and not players. As to quality, it all depends on the development and management of the playtester group. Unmanaged feedback-only is pretty common.
 
It has been said that the market is flooded with game materials. Could this be said of 90% of the games out there? Most are what the designer wanted and not players. As to quality, it all depends on the development and management of the playtester group. Unmanaged feedback-only is pretty common.

Most of the successful ones have extensive feedback from playtesters incorporated. Most have one or two gaping holes, as well.

For example, the FFG Star Wars line: the combat mechanics for movement are abstracted to excessively, making piloting skill useless in ship combats. Also, there's no way to escape in ship combat, except by hyperspace jump. Otherwise, it's excellent. A couple gaping holes.

Pathfinder, D&D Next (D&D 5), the FFG 40K lines, COC/BRP - all have had extensive fan feedback incorporated. Real and important changes made between initial draft and release.
 
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