Imperial Army Craft

[rancke]

Given the relatively small number of warships in the Traveller Universe (as of MT:Rebellion SB)

Relative to what? You write as if you're stating a fact rather than expressing an opinion, but I know you're aware that not everyone agrees with you. For my part I'm of the opinion that 60+ combat vessels per regular fleet alone implies that the undefined number of auxiliary vessels belonging to the IN (that RbS specifically says isn't included in the figure) and the number of ships reserve navies and planetary navies have must be quite high. It stands to reason that for every big ship a navy has, it will have several smaller ones.

Oh, and the Imperium seems to have a lot of ships laid up in ordinary -- after the Domain went on a war footing, it took years to reactivate the Arrival Vengeance despite the fact that the most efficient use of shipyard space is reactivating mothballed ships (a TL14 ship in two months beats a TL15 ship in 20 months any day).

...that will operate in squadrons and fleets during a war thus reducing their number even further, acquiring some space defense / COAAC forces of their own should be first priority for the army. Having a battleship squadron around is nice but if that is your ONLY defense and it is suddenly needed elsewhere...

And as various sources say, the Army does indeed have COAAC forces. And planetary navies have SDBs and monitors that can't be moved as easily.


Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

Well Rancke, neither does everyone agree with you. I for example disagree and so I state MY view.

That aside during war the fleet will operate in Squadrons and (assuming any level of competence) with escorts bolstering the basic squadron layouts. And that will quickly reduce availabel ships of any kind since ten ships forming a squadron can only be at one place any given time.

As for "they have lots of ship in ordinary": Well that may be so. But judging by the time it takes them to re-fit and re-activate those even in the rather safe Domain it seems to take a lot of time getting them OUT of ordinary. And I guess telling General StumbleAlong to "wait a few years until the ships are ready" is NOT the way to fight a war.

 

[Garyius2003]

I tend to discount both MT and TNE as mistakes in the storyline, so I also reject the systems (plus MT was accounting adventures in space combat).

So, my question really involved CT and GURPS, and GURPS based on Ground Forces at least has Army landers and landing log and ops troops. If they have landers and landing operation troops, it is logocal that they run mobile highports for log unloading, which means they also must run fire support platforms in orbit....which leads to aux craft...

 

[aramis]

Garius:

given that Marc Miller has said that Virus is part of the official storyline, and has claimed credit for it....

... and that you asked in the fleet...

ignoring those sources is unlikely. You've gotten answers from the best and the brightest. Answers consistent with canon.

 

[BlackBat242]

And let that be a lesson to you, heretic.

How dare you question revealed knowledge, and reject the revised Gospels of MT and TNE!

Take care, lest the "Defenders of the Cannon" cast you from this forum for the blasphemy of "Classicalism".

You MUST accept the revealed mysteries of Emperioral Assasination and Viral contamination, you have no choice.



PS, there are a lot of us who deny MT/TNE... but we have learned to confine our "hide-bound paleo-gamerisms" to the CT forum, where we are tolerated in the hopes we will eventually "see the light-years" and convert to the "Reformed Traveller Church". :smirk:

 

[Garyius2003]

Fine, given the combat before and during the FFW, what craft and platforms does the Army operate under:

1) CT

2) GURPS

3) D20

4) the systems of MT and TNE?

GURPS has army landers, so the rest of a huge fleet of non-ships and platforms follows and huge transport and log ships may also follow.

For the rest...?

(Sorry I called out the storyline that was revolt and virus)

 

[aramis]

Canonically, the Army is implied to land in largish assault ships, well after the marnes who jump from orbit take and hold....

T20 makes no clear statements on the matter.

 

[pendragonman]

And let that be a lesson to you, heretic.

How dare you question revealed knowledge, and reject the revised Gospels of MT and TNE!

Take care, lest the "Defenders of the Cannon" cast you from this forum for the blasphemy of "Classicalism".

You MUST accept the revealed mysteries of Emperioral Assasination and Viral contamination, you have no choice.



PS, there are a lot of us who deny MT/TNE... but we have learned to confine our "hide-bound paleo-gamerisms" to the CT forum, where we are tolerated in the hopes we will eventually "see the light-years" and convert to the "Reformed Traveller Church". :smirk:

We free thinking heretics must remain hidden. CT is too open a ruleset for many who gather here. Independant thought must remain hidden until the prophesy is fulfilled.



Too Right! Heretics must be confined to the asylum known as CT! It's for their own good!

 

[jec10]

Fine, given the combat before and during the FFW, what craft and platforms does the Army operate under:

1) CT

In GDW261-Spinward Marches Campaign there is a description of the history of the 4518th Lift Infantry, the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles. On page 38 there is a description of a famous battle from early in the Huscarles history. Menorb did not accept the rebels defeat by Empress Arbellatra and it fell to the Huscarles to enforce compliance. Two battalions were embarked in "transports of the subsector fleet" and dispatched to Menorb. An initial party used two subsidized merchants to recce the planet, and then a battalion assaulted from orbit using jump capsules while the second battalion (less the advance party) remained in reserve aboard transports.
In addition, as configured in the 5FW, the 4518th includes an ortillery squadron with three 400-ton SDBs, and a fighter squadron with ten Rampart fighters. SMC says that "if necessary, a transport squadron can be attached to the flight wing to carry the regiment interstellar". On page 40 it says "Interplanetary and interstellar transport for the regiment is provided on an as-needed basis, depending on available shipping space and on priorities. The regiment is capable of moving itself anywhere on a planet's surface using its own transportation assets (and elements with transportation equipment would be tasked by headquarters to transport elements without such equipment). Equipment for the regiment requires 7457 tons."

 

[flykiller]

Equipment for the regiment requires 7457 tons."

it would be interesting to see what that 7457 dtons included. when I drew up a company it came to 4900 dtons, but that included all kinds of reinforcements and specialty equipment, and the unit had its own interplanetary transportation.

 

[aramis]

I worked it (4518 LIR) out to about 6Ktons once, using the info in striker, and carrying loads of prefab HQ-base buildings... sufficient to bunk the entire regiment in a hostile environment.

 

[flykiller]

for what size unit?

anyone else work out anything?

it might be worthwhile to compare these. here's mine. one company, marines only since imtu armies don't play much of a role. most vehicles are 20 dton ships boats, hg2, tech 12, armor 4, except the tanks and the fighters.

personnel                            vehicles
----------------------------------------------------
16 infantry squads, 12 men each      32 APC's
16 crew                              04 tanks
16 crew                              04 SP artillery
08 officers, 08 crew, 04 techs       04 command gigs
08 crew, 08 techs                    04 nuc damper screen
04 crew, 06 techs                    02 EW/ELINT
04 crew                              02 fighters

hospital section:  09 men, 02 ambulances, 100 dton facility, 40 lowberths
maint section:     20 men, 02 AFV's, 02 recovery vehicles, 200 dton facility
command center:    40 dton facility
3.5 dtons for each man for berthing, lowberth, combat equipment locker
13 lifeboats
04 airraft bays
20 extra staterooms
04 extra ship's gig docking bays
cargo space for 10 months deployment

 

[aramis]

Fly:
you forgot the 2man crews on the APC's...

If you're lowberthing, the average man should probably take 0.75 Td: 1/2 Td per man for LB, and 1/4 ton (3.5 cubic meters!) for gear.

BD or combat armor troops probably go to 1 ton each if LB, and drop troops 1.5Td each if LB. (extra for the Drop Capsule)

Officers go double occ. on staterooms... 2Td each, plus 0.25 or 0.5 Td for gear locker. +0.5 Td for capsule if drop troop.

If APC's are Grav, lift infantry go down in grav vehicles.... even if not, it's likely that the drop ships will have the troops in vehciles anyway.

 

[flykiller]

you forgot the 2man crews on the APC's...

yep, sure did. that would bring the invasion to a halt pretty quickly. "uh, sir ...."

If you're lowberthing, the average man should probably take 0.75 Td: 1/2 Td per man for LB, and 1/4 ton (3.5 cubic meters!) for gear.

each man has both a lowberth and a berthing bunk. and the gear locker includes up to battle dress and full replacement parts (CR or BD is likely to be seriously beat-up and in need of parts replacement after a serious hit), all assigned weapons, quite a bit of ammo, repair parts and tools, etc. figured 1/2 dton for the gear locker was necessary. besides, 1/2 dton fits better on a deckplan.

(extra for the Drop Capsule)

imtu don't do drop capsules, everybody rides in, for several reasons. one, drop capsules are specialty items that won't see much use. two, the troops need to stay together for maximum effectiveness, and APC's are better for this. three, if the troops need to be withdrawn, APC's can do this.

Officers go double occ. on staterooms

I put 'em single. not much difference in dtonnage either way.

If APC's are Grav ....

they're armored ships boats. the Deckplans link in my sig has some deckplans for infantry gigs. Deckplans/Assorted Small Craft/Infantry Gigs.

 

[jec10]

20dT is a hell of a lot to carry just one squad - the Huscarles Grav APC in CT is 12dT and it carries up to 14 persons including crew. Seems like overkill to me. Why not carry two squads per gig or a section?

 

[aramis]

Flykiller: why double berthing of men in low? After all, thaw and load on the trip in... go down inside your transports.

Jec10:
the 4518th isn't fully battledress nor combat armored... and thus can pack troops tighter in the APC's. The CT G-Carrier APC's are 12man. The Astrin is 8 BD troops+2 crew, and use 8 man squads... and borders on being an IFV.

One can build a 6-squad, 3 section, 3 vehicle lift infantry platoon in 30 tons:
Each Section:

• One foot squad of 8, 10, or 12 troops
• One vehicle squad of 2 crew and one vehicle

Platoon:
3 sections.

Company:

• 3-4 platoons
• command section:
  • 1 vehicle, 2 crew,
  • 5-12 staff, including CO
• support section:
  • 1 EW vehicle 4 crew + XO
  • 1 repair vehicle, 2 crew, 2-4 mechanics

So, for an astrin-based heavy combat or battledress company

1PLT: 4 vehicles, 8 crew, 30 troops, 1 SLT, 1 SNCO
2PLT: 4 vehicles, 8 crew, 30 troops, 1 SLT, 1 SNCO
3PLT: 4 vehicles, 8 crew, 30 troops, 1 SLT, 1 SNCO
4PLT: 4 vehicles, 8 crew, 30 troops, 1 SLT, 1 SNCO
HQSct: 1 vehicle, 2 crew, 1 Cpt, 2 SLT, 3 SNCO, 4 staff
SptSct: 2 vehicles, 6 crew, 4 troops 1 LT
Total: 19 vehicles, 40 crew, 1 Cpt, 1 LT, 4 SLT, 7 SNCO, 4 staff, 124 troops

124.0Td Troops: 1 Td Ea in Lowberth + Locker
 10.0Td staff: 2.5 Td Ea (DO SR + Locker)
 17.5Td SNCO: 2.5 Td Ea (SO SSR + Locker) Or (DO SR + Locker)
 12.5Td SLT & LT: 2.5td ea (SO SSR + Locker)
  4.5Td Cpt: 4.5Td (SO SR)
247.0Td Vehicles: assumes Joint Delivery System berths at 13 Td; 
              save 57 Td if dedicated Astrin-only berths used instead
=========
415.5Td per company in JDS transport.
358.5 in dedicated AStrin-only transport
548.5 in "open bay transport"

Now, realize a regiment is 4-17 companies (nominally 9-13)...
A LIR could easily top out 6000 Td if carried in open hangars

Now, a TL14 J5 assault ship eats up roughly
J5: 56%
PP5: 15%
MD1:2%
Bridge: 2%
Crew: 5%
Weapons: 1%
total~ 81%

So a rough tonnage estimate fo J5 1G TL14 transports is 5x the tonnage of cargo. This puts a company on about a 2500-3000 Td Transport.
Make it 4G instead, and you get a company per 5000Td, with roughly 90% being ship...

Oh, and I remember there being a 5000Td limit on what can actually set down, so that would be about as big as they get: low-thrust get two companies on a 5000Td, and high thrust get 1....

 

[jec10]

SMC page 40: "Equipment for the regiment (computed based on vehicle tonnages plus one ton per trooper or officer) requires 7457 tons. Transportation tonnage for the personnel requires 5656 tons at standard rates (one stateroom per officer, double occupancy for enlisted personnel), or 1323 tons for low passage."

As per SMC, the 4518th LIR totals 182 officers, 2464 enlisted personnel, 192 12dT APCs, 94 20dT tanks, 20 MRLs (on 12dT APC chassis), 16 RDMs (on 12dT APC chassis), 13 Ramparts and 3 400-ton SDBs.
There are nine Lift Infantry Companies, three jump infantry companies, four Grav Tank companies, and six Lift Cavalry Troops (Companies).

Details of the Grav APC from Adventure 1: Kinunir...
Grav APC: The grav armored personnel carrier is capable of atmospheric
flight, and limited orbital flight. It is pressure-tight, and heavily armored. Weapons
systems include one rapid pulse Y gun (top mounted, and fired from internal
controls), six battlefield missiles (of 10 - 20 km range) and 30 smaller 'fire and
forget' missiles. The troops carried aboard have firing ports (which break the
pressure seal when used) and acceleration couches (which make the interior quite
crowded). The APC weighs 12 tons, and can carry a payload of 6 tons, including
weapons, ammunition and personnel.
The six battlefield missiles have nuclear warheads in the one-tenth to one kiloton
(Kt) range (probably one 1Kt, one half Kt, and four tenth Kt). The fire & forget
missiles are a mixture of high explosive and flechette rounds.
Top speed for the grav APC is 900 kph, but generally cruises at 500 kph at
approximately 1000 meters altitude. Avionics allow a speed of 150 kph in nap of
the earth (NOE) flight. Experienced pilots (grav vehicle skill) do better, generally
+50kph per level of expertise. Very broken terrain reduces normal NOE flight to
75 kph, with each level of grav vehicle skill allowing an increase of 25 kph.

 

[jec10]

More CT references of note:
From Supplement 9 - Fighting Ships
page 9: "Carriers are designed to carry large numbers of small combat boats,
termed either fighters or system defense boats, for use in the screen of the battle fleet or in support of a planetary invasion."

"Cruisers are the smallest ships to carry the large spinal weapons needed
to cause serious damage to a large armored ship, although most are too lightly armored to stand in the line of battle. They form the cadre of commerce raiding task forces and provide fire support for planetary invasions."

page 24: Has the 50-ton TL15 Troop Transport described "The 50-ton troop transport was designed and produced by the Imperial Navy to meet a long-established need for deployment of troops from orbit to world surface. The 50-ton limit on displacement allows the craft to be deployed on ships having standard 50-ton launch tubes. Each troop transport can carry 50 combat-ready troops from orbit to planet in a matter of minutes. The 10 ton cargo bay allows the simultaneous transport of vehicles, supplies, or equipment during deployment operations."

page 25: Describes a SDB: "SDBs can be used in space combat against starships, or they may be pressed into service as air and orbital superiority
craft in operations against ground forces...Some types have jump shuttles which fit to the craft and provide jump capability. Another method is simple transport in large bulk cargo carriers; the SDBs are loaded into 10,000-ton or 20,000-ton bulk carriers for the multiparsec journey. This method, of course, is not recommended if immediate combat is expected at the destination."

page 29: Describes the 50,000t Arakoine class Strike Cruiser: "Named for famous battles in Imperial history, the Arakoine class strike cruiser is specifically designed for ground support and surface bombardment. It has large missile resources available, as well as both meson gun and particle accelerator weaponry. The ship is supported by its large phalanx of fighter craft. These fighters are capable of close defense for the ship, and of ground support in combat."

page 36: Describes the 100,000t Antiama class Fleet Carrier "The ship's meson gun and particle accelerator can be used against ground targets, as can its missile racks and its laser batteries. Generally this type of ground support occurs only in the final stages of a battle, when things are being mopped up. Doctrine would preclude risking this ship early in a battle when there is the potential disaster of surface-based return fire...Where once a large dreadnaught would carry regiments of troops, phalanxes of fighters, and myriad weapons mounts, current practice is to split these various tasks into individual ships. Naval doctrine is to carry troops on troop transports, fighters on fighter carriers, and large weapons for the line of battle on battleships."

page 42: Describes the 200,000t Kokirrak dreadnaught "Normally, the Kokirraks do not carry troops. It is possible to install modular quarters for up to 2,000 troops (usually only 1,000 are carried) in the cargo hold. A squadron of eight Kokirraks can carry between 8,000 and 16,000 troops, or the equivalent of a reinforced division."

 

[flykiller]

20dT is a hell of a lot to carry just one squad

actually, imtu the 20 dton gig carries just a fire team, for several reasons that all came together for me. one, I just standardized at a 20 dton cylindrical gig so that all craft and docking bays are interchangeable for maximum fleet flexibility. two, no-one knows what the next assignment will be so everyone is in an actual ship's boat so that whereever they need to go, whether its groundside or in an asteroid belt or its on the next planet over because the big ships are busy or can't come in, or its a boarding action, the marines can still get there and operate with mobility from one side of the planet to the other, from one asteroid to the next, from one disabled enemy ship to the next. three, the gig provides the marines with a place to go if they're wounded or need repairs or need to retreat or just need to lay down and sleep for a few hours. four, maximum dispersal of the infantry vehicles contributes to their survivability when facing serious opposition. and some other reasons.

After all, thaw and load on the trip in... go down inside your transports.

that would be more efficient logistics, but I don't believe men can be used that way. there has to be some down time and the men have to get to know each other or they stop functioning both individually and as a team. I can see a one-shot certain-victory invasion army being transported that way - train 'em up, pack 'em in, four months transport, drop 'em down and let the battle begin - but imtu marines get used for all sorts of odd jobs at all sorts of times in all sorts of places, so they spend quite a bit of time awake. if the ship is conducting a long-term transit and the troops don't need any training they'll lowberth, just to save on lifespan, but otherwise they're up.

 

[flykiller]

(looking over the other t.o.e.'s)

they're heavy on weapons and up-front efficient logistics, but I see no casualty retrieval, no hospitals, and no maintenance facilities. perhaps, given the weapons used in traveller, these would be useless as there would be nothing to retrieve or treat or repair afterwards?

I would have expected at least to see a nuke damper in there somewhere, and more EW/ELINT.