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Imperial Army Craft

In that case renting/requesting the Tenders but using your army lighters might be an option for the first part of an invasion to increase lighter survivability. Once the planet is secured and you are mopping up/garrisoning than you can replace even those with standard models increasing cargo delivered.
 
Agreed. If you're using the Gurps model of the Army then some of the richer or more active worlds could even have lighters preloaded with supplies, ammunition and so forth. For quick operations, you'd shuttle troops to the lighter, hook up to a carrier and move out. These would be small, low intensity operations so scheduling the carrier would be the hardest part.
 
An actual division or larger occupying or fighting on a planet will require tons and tons of stuff per day ....
not to mention replacements for equipment that has been shot up. say a trooper has been hit by a plasma gun and his combat armor saved his life, but the suit needs to be replaced. do you bring him a new suit, or bring him back to get it himself, or preload the deployment vehicles with spares (are these things one-size-fits-all?) or just tell him hide for now and we'll get back to you later?

... which has to be shipped in. The 10,000 ton bulk carrier can be chartered to jump in with a fleet cost of a few close and destroyer escorts and maybe an elderly cruiser or two, but the stuff has to get unloaded somewhere and the bulk carrier is not a Navy fleet underway cargo ship designed to load landers or shuttles, it is designed to hook up to a highport.
have to sign you up as a staff officer.

can a supply system run this way in a high-tech traveller environment? supply systems require some kind of "rear" area of relative safety. if we assume that the reason a major army is being deployed is because it is facing major opposition, will there be any "rear" areas groundside?
 
not to mention replacements for equipment that has been shot up. say a trooper has been hit by a plasma gun and his combat armor saved his life, but the suit needs to be replaced. do you bring him a new suit, or bring him back to get it himself, or preload the deployment vehicles with spares (are these things one-size-fits-all?) or just tell him hide for now and we'll get back to you later?

If wars are still fought the same it's more likely he'll be wounded than just have a hole in his armor and your logistics is not about replacing his destroyed gear but evac to and treatment at a field hospital before being sent back in or to the rear. In which case the gear replacement repair is also more to the rear.
 
...if we assume that the reason a major army is being deployed is because it is facing major opposition, will there be any "rear" areas groundside?

Not the way I'd see it, but then my take on the whole issue may differ significantly. The rear area in such a situation is another nearby star system.

The Navy is first in (including Scouts) and they make the space around the planet "safe" and then keep it that way through a blockade. That will involve slagging any nearby satellites (natural or other) from a safe standoff. Including any highports naturally. The safe standoff will depend on the target world resources. The Navy will then put it's own eyes and ears up.

Next imtu the Marines will be dropped (cans or boxes) to secure any threats to the Navy that they can't or won't simply glass. This will almost certainly include securing the downport and/or a suitable site for a temporary forward area. There will be a host of other special ops missions on the table as well. The Marines imtu are special forces, few in number but serious in use.

Finally to mop up the resistance, cow the population (primarily by sheer numbers), and restore commerce and order the Army will be delivered to the surface. The Marines will be withdrawn. The Navy (and Scouts) will fall back except for the forces needed to maintain the blockade.

That's it in a nutshell. Variations for less hospitable worlds than T-types may see a specialized Army force, or the Marines, or even just the Navy doing the mop up.

Of course Marines imtu are first and foremost the Navy Armed Forces, primarily used in boarding actions. It is a secondary role to go in hot on the ground from space. They are a prideful service imtu and can't wait to get off any mudball. That's a job for the Gro-Pos and they only do it when they have to, and then prefer to do it big. Drop cans, Battle Dress, and lots of hot plasma, fusion and tac-nukes. Fast in and fast out. They also like calling in ortillery and will grudgingly serve as snipers for high value targets. They will not use restraint and they do not see anyone in theater as neutral, if IFF does not tag you as friendly you are a target. It's usually best not to send in other (non-Marine) friendlies until the Marines advise all objectives met and request dust off.
 
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If wars are still fought the same it's more likely he'll be wounded than just have a hole in his armor and your logistics is not about replacing his destroyed gear but evac to and treatment at a field hospital before being sent back in or to the rear.
well if armor is effective then I can see quite a few troopers stuck in damaged battledress or combat armor that is no longer fit for combat - maybe not even mobile. the reason I bring this up is because in iraq the resupply of damaged major equipment, or rather its non-resupply, has been shown to be an unexpected major issue. in a traveller setting ground action where transport space is limited, weapons are effective, and operational tempo is high, I can see equipment loss as being a very high-order factor.

They will not use restraint ....
I see it just the opposite. the marines get sent in precisely because the admiral wants restraint, else the navy would just stomp the target.

They are a prideful service imtu and can't wait to get off any mudball.
(grin) I like that characterization. wouldn't fit imtu, but it's a great way to describe them.
 
<cut>

can a supply system run this way in a high-tech traveller environment? supply systems require some kind of "rear" area of relative safety. if we assume that the reason a major army is being deployed is because it is facing major opposition, will there be any "rear" areas groundside?

You will use a few to "Zee Solomanie Uboots" and "Towaritsch Zholomanie Partisanski" but basically you can run a war without a rear area that is fully secured. It will be like the Allies running Convois through the Atlantik or the Axis in Russia and Yugoslavia. After all even the Allied supply train shortly after Overlord was still attacked by submarines.

Actually that makes for a nice campaign or at least a few scenarios. Something along the lines of Bogart in "Action in the South Atlantic" with the players as important crewmembers of an armed frighter bringing in critical supplies, loosing their escorts, being hounded by raiders etc.
 
How about renting these on the odd occasions that the Army needs them and putting the savings to other budget items like weapons and equipment for the majority of your missions.

Remember during the first Gulf War, the US chartered a bunch of civilian ships to rapidly move the units needed to invade Iraq. It was determined really fast that the forward deployed RoRos and other prestaged cargo ships didn't have the capacity to sustain such a large invasion... So I can easily see the Imperial Army chartering civilian bulk freighters to suppliment their own lift capability - after all, the Army has better things to spend their money on then starships and shuttles!
 
Remember during the first Gulf War, the US chartered a bunch of civilian ships to rapidly move the units needed to invade Iraq. It was determined really fast that the forward deployed RoRos and other prestaged cargo ships didn't have the capacity to sustain such a large invasion... So I can easily see the Imperial Army chartering civilian bulk freighters to suppliment their own lift capability - after all, the Army has better things to spend their money on then starships and shuttles!

I also remember them chartering airliners to move a lot of troops.

I've been rereading GT:GF for details on the Army and it specifically states that the Navy may not have shipping to support major ground operations and thus will have to hire civilian ships to take up the slack. Subsidized merchants will be first.

Another example of this is STUFT. The wikipedia page says that "STUFT is a nautical acronym for Ship Taken Up From Trade, and applies to civilian ships requisitioned for government use." This is what the UK did to supply the Falklands campaign.
 
Indeed commercial ships will pressed into service. First among them, all those subsidized merchants. In mtu subbies are built to be quickly up armed and with a nod in the design to eventual military roles as supply and troop transport. A subbie can be theater ready in very short order. Even the crews are generally ex-Navy and retired Navy officers so you have easy integration into the chain of command. Army transport and supply are perfect roles.
 
The Loadmaster 113115 is one of three High Port modules operated by Detachment A, 2567th High Port Operation Regiment, a Reserve unit at Mora in the Marches. The three modules are rotated out of orbital standdown status by the unit during bi-yearly training sessions, and are otherwise watched over by a small full time staff of selected unit members.

The Loadmaster design is standardized Army wide at TL 13, allowing production at a number of worlds. The design has a number of tradeoffs allowing it to be shipped in a bulk carrier or a number of Navy tenders. Most notable is the fact that the module can be operated like a boat in route from its drop off location to high orbit, although it has limited ability to maneuver and also use its damper field.

The design also allows for processing and distribution of 400 tons of fuel beyond the module’s needs, and has two 200 ton boat bays allowing loading and repair of any 100 ton or smaller boat --in addition to its many standardized cargo hatches. Although the cargo area has tie downs and container support connectors, its primary intended use is transhipment of cargo to landers and small craft.

The bridge is designed to function as both a control center in flight and as an operation center for cargo and local control operations. The sickbay is also increased in size to act as an additional hospital unit prior to movement to low berths and shipment out of the system for the badly injured.

Most recently, Detachment A deployed during the FFW as a complete unit, joining all three modules to a badly damaged civvie highport and supporting an entire Corps. At the end of that deployment the unit lost all 12 of its assigned heavy fighters, all 6 of its assigned SBDs, and 8 of its 12 assigned gigs to the Starport Authority when it finished repairs and took over the highport and released the unit and its modules. The replacement equipment has been ordered but is not expected for at least one year.

There has been some talk of adding additional turrets to the standard loadout, and upgrading the damper field to a TL 15 design, but a decision has been deferred until the scheduled meeting of the FFW “lessons learned” committee on Capital/Core, scheduled for next decade.


Ship: Loadmaster 113115
Class: Loadmaster
Type: High Port Module
Architect: Jackson Virrgeri
Tech Level: 13

USP
HP-B3011C2-050300-50000-0 MCr 497.446 2 KTons
Bat Bear 1 1 Crew: 28 (flight operations)
Bat 1 1 TL: 13

Cargo: 800.000 Fuel: 420.000 EP: 20.000 Agility: 0
Craft: 2 x 200T Bays
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 4.974 Cost in Quantity: MCr 397.957

Detailed Description

HULL
2,000.000 tons standard, 28,000.000 cubic meters, Cylinder Configuration

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 20.000 EP, Agility 0

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
20 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
2 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-5), Nuclear Damper (Factor-3)

CRAFT
2 200.000 ton Bays (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.000)

FUEL
420.000 Tons Fuel (400 tons for refueling operations and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
24.0 Staterooms, 100 Low Berths, 800.000 Tons Cargo, 33 tons divided between bridge and sickbay improvments

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 502.420 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4.974), MCr 397.957 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
132 Weeks Singly, 106 Weeks in Quantity
 
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One of eight Landers belonging to 13245th Lander Battalion of the Imperial Army, “Six Charlie” is typical of the Army Landers used during the FFW. Based at Mora, the reserve battalion usually works in concert with the detachment of the reserve High Port Operation Regiment also based there.

The Landers are typically used on a rotating schedule by reservists during their bi-yearly Training Duty to support planetary army operations in addition to normal training.

The design is standardized at TL 13, to allow construction throughout the Imperium. During the FFW the basic damper screen was seen as ineffective for the high threat operations the design found itself in. When first used, during the Rim War, the C100 class were only used in low and medium threat environments, however the lack of lead time for the FFW meant that the Marines and Navy were not able to secure landing areas to textbook standards in many cases, nor provide standard anti- missile suppressive fire. Several units were lost to nuclear attack during the war, although no ‘45th’ Landers were lost.

Leaving aside the damper issue, the Landers performed very well in both the initial landing and support phases of all operations. Consideration is being given to a TL 15 upgrade to the damper unit.

The Landers are noteworthy in that in addition to two multi sized side cargo hatches which are designed to mate to all standardized station and ship hatches, they also feature a "bow ramp". The bridge is located in the rear of the Lander, near the engines. The front of the ship can open into a ramp at the same time the Lander kneels on its bow gear, allowing rapid deployment from the lower cargo deck, and the upper deck after the lower is empty and it is partly lowered.

The design is not economic to build or buy for commerical highport to ground operations, but several C100s have been surplus transfered for use on new Starports on the edge of the Imperium, where they are well admired.

As with most of the C100 class, Six Charlie is supervised by a senior NCO, Msgt Nielson, who leads as "Boat NCOIC". The entire unit usually only contains eight officers, the CO, XO, Op O, Maint O, two Liaison Officers, and two Section Commanders. New officers being brought into the unit are sometimes given command of a Lander as OIC after a period of time shadowing one of the other Os, but this assignment will typically not last more than 6 months and the Landers' NCOIC is usually left in place to assist the officer.

80% of the 45th are vets of the FFW, either with the unit or another space operations unit of the Army. Most members remain with the unit until retirement, and many have command of their own Lander as their primary goal.


Ship: Lander 153A526C
Class: 13C100
Type: Army Lander
Architect: Xriggeri Smith
Tech Level: 13

USP
LA-A1046B2-050100-50000-0 MCr 622.500 1 KTons
Bat Bear 1 1 Crew: 17
Bat 1 1 TL: 13

Cargo: 492.000 Fuel: 60.000 EP: 60.000 Agility: 4
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 6.225 Cost in Quantity: MCr 498.000


Detailed Description

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 7 Engineers, Medic, 6 Gunners

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 4G Maneuver, Power plant-6, 60.000 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/2fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
4 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organized into 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
2 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organized into 1 Battery (Factor-5), Nuclear Damper (Factor-1)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
60.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
10.0 Staterooms, 200 Acceleration Couches, 492.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 628.725 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 6.225), MCr 498.000 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
 
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Indeed commercial ships will pressed into service.
very problematic.

1) how long will it take to assemble the necessary ships? will corporations willingly leave their boats in places where they could be "requisitioned"? will individual captains, hearing rumors, avoid this draft? (recall when we here in california were having our electric power shortages the first thing governor davis talked about was the state seizing the power company's equipment. the company promptly responded by moving every piece of mobile equipment it could out of state and transferring it all back to its parent company.)

2) how much will this disrupt civilian trade?

3) are the ships fit for duty? if (when) they break down, are civilan support systems available to keep these things running? do they have the necessary attributes for the job - maneuver, jump, stealth, comms, endurance, armament, armor?

4) just who is crewing these civilian ships? are they competent? are they loyal? are any of them sleeper agents? if you give them a cargo worth 100 MCr and tell them to jump to a certain location, will they actually go there?

etc.

too many potential problems. imtu the emperor theoretically owns every jump-capable ship in the imperium but the military uses its own supply system unless it has no other choice.
 
1) how long will it take to assemble the necessary ships? will corporations willingly leave their boats in places where they could be "requisitioned"? will individual captains, hearing rumors, avoid this draft? (recall when we here in california were having our electric power shortages the first thing governor davis talked about was the state seizing the power company's equipment. the company promptly responded by moving every piece of mobile equipment it could out of state and transferring it all back to its parent company.)
A lot will depend on how much of the total available civilian shipping you're talking about. If the sector has 186 billion tons of shipping, and you only need 500,000 tons of it, that's very different from needing 25% of the available tonnage.

To go to a somewhat older example, note that many passenger liners were placed into service during WW1, WW2, and during the Falklands War. Usually, like with the CRAF aircraft, there's some agreement with the owners already in place that covers some sort of compensation. If an airline contracts to have its planes as part of the civilian reserve, it gets a shot at some lucrative air-freight deals, for instance.

Moving ships out of an entire sector is radically different than driving a few hours to get across a state line, too. There are other options if a government is willing to play hardball -- if Governor Davis had arrested the managers and directors of the power company, and placed the families of all the workers who had removed equipment into "protective custody", I expect that the equipment would have reappeared in short order. He'd have had legal trouble to deal with, and some really upset power-company workers, but he'd have had possession of the equipment. The exact nature of the legal trouble in an analogous situation would depend entirely on how much legal control there is over the requisitioning authority.

The Imperium is a government of men, not laws, after all.
2) how much will this disrupt civilian trade?
Depends on how much excess capacity there is, and on the actual demands of the situation. While some level of overcapacity is just a facet of the way trade works (meeting any unfilled needs, and allowing for the inefficiencies required for maintenance and human nature), it won't get too dramatic, or economic factors will cut some of it back out. There's also the "There's a war on, you moron!" factor to consider, too; some disruption is expected and accepted.
3) are the ships fit for duty? if (when) they break down, are civilan support systems available to keep these things running? do they have the necessary attributes for the job - maneuver, jump, stealth, comms, endurance, armament, armor?
Depends on how much you're talking about, and what arrangements have been made beforehand. Presumably, there's currently enough civilian support systems to keep them running now, and those facilities can be commandeered to some degree in wartime. Combat losses may cut into the number of ships needing support or facilities to provide support -- your specific rules may give more details. The capabilities will also depend on what's needed, and what's out there; bulk hauling will be easy, but high-speed handling of hazmats might not be so easy to find.

I'd also expect that the Navy has been eyeballing civilian shipping with an eye to what their projected needs might be in case of war -- the CRAF example springs to mind here.
4) just who is crewing these civilian ships? are they competent? are they loyal? are any of them sleeper agents? if you give them a cargo worth 100 MCr and tell them to jump to a certain location, will they actually go there?
A lot depends on the nature of what you're going to need them to do. If the job is "Deliver a platoon of assault troopers with all their gear to World X, and drop them off at the navy base there", I'm fairly sure they won't try to run off with that cargo. :) There's also the often-neglected factor of the loyalties and other ties that crews may have to their nation-states, too.

I'd rarely expect to see impressed shipping on the bleeding edge of the front line; it's doubtful that the crews would know what they're doing, or be well enough equipped to handle the situation. Instead, they'd get to do the non-glamorous things, like haul containers of ration packs or tents. In the rare cases when they would be doing something like running supplies into hostile areas, they'll either be well-compensated, or given some other strong motivator to get the job done -- maybe the ship's captain has a daughter who is depending on a noble's permission to marry her true love, and the noble will only give that permission if the captain makes sure that the huscarles get this shipment of ammunition.
 
Civilian ships going in harms way are more likely to be blockade runners. Otherwise, the most likely use is to bring bulk cargo to an orbital transfer point / temporary high-port and transfer to landers that will take the cargo to the down-port. These ships will get close enough to hand off their load but will be kept away from potential threats. Depending on the level of surface threat, this point may be far out in orbit. The only serious excitement I see is if the defenders counter-attack the blockade. Another difference from normal is that you're dealing with a type E/X port, doing ship to ship transfer of cargo under the control of two guys in a cutter.

Refueling may also be a problem. Gas giants may be OK, but ocean / down-port refueling is not likely to happen. The Navy will have to set up some kind of fuel supply operation for the incoming transports.
 
Captain Midnight has some good answers for the assumptions he makes, but the answers may not fit other campaigns.

just as an exercise, on a star map figure a battle location, an assembly location, and the distribution of civilian ships to be summoned. find how long it will take to summon the civilan ships, assemble them, and then get them to their destination - using jump 2 at best. see how many of them get there and then back to a civilian maintenance yard before they exceed their annual maintenance date.
 
I have never owned Invasion: Earth but I recall once someone (Aramis?) said that it was really a planetary invasion mechanism for MegaTrav in disguise. Has anybody played/owned Invasion:Earth and can comment how it handled the types of issues we have discussed in this thread? Is supply and logistics a consideration for instance? Does the Imperial player have to capture a highport/downport first (as might be suggested by the canon descriptions of the climactic battle of the Solomani Rim War) and subsequently use it as a supply hub? Do Marines have to go in first before Army troops? Are all assaulting troops shipped in the Assault Rons evident in the counter-sheets? What is their capacity? What is the role of Solomani planetary defences on Terra?
 
I guess it depends a bit on the Universe/Setting. Let's take GURPS:


+ There are quite a few 10.000dton and bigger Megaliners

These ships only operate between major planets and along prime routes leaving feeder duty to smaller ships between 1000 and 5000dton. And since these same high pop/high tech worlds are those most likely to send Army units, the civies are almost where they are needed

+ These big ships are run by MegaCorps like Oberlindes and Tukera

It's safe to assume that like the big shipping lines of today they have high standards of crew and maintenance. So these ships are no more likely to break down than any military ship, possibly less so since they are less complex. And they have a trained crew, in the case of Oberlindes even trained in using military systems.

+ The Big Corps are Connected

Oberlindes has traditionally good contacts with the Navy (buying surplus frighters, buying a surplus AHL) and builds it's ships to quasi-military standards of armament. Tukera is run by nobles and the boss during CT/MT is actually married to a Cousin of the Impie. Connections are always a "give and take" thing so if they want to keep the connections, they have to help out on occasion

+ It's only a sector/domain

Until the Rebellion there had been no "Imperial-Wide war". It is unlikely that shipping will suffer in more than a few sectors or the local Domain at worst. And in that region shipping will suffer anyway since sending in a few light cruisers or heavy destroyers to mess up the local civilian shipping is a common plan in War IMHO. Pitty the poor Typ-T that comes up against the Zho Äquivalent of a Saberwolf DD. So even requesting that ship will likely no more disrupting than the war anyway

+ The big boys are faster

Average Jump of a big freighter is IIRC J3 and liners (Troop transports) can do J4 in GURPS.

+ Blockade runner

No way. These big guys will stay well out of the fight. The first phase of a space assault will likely by a Navy thing using naval vehicles. Only when planetary defences are mostly destroyed will civilian crafts come in. They didn't bring Liberty ships on the D-Day after all.

+ Loose some

You always do.
 
+ These big ships are run by MegaCorps like Oberlindes and Tukera
The first ships taken have already been paid a subsidy to be available in times of war. Given the number of major wars, five frontier wars in how many centuries, this may be a good bet.
+ The Big Corps are Connected
They are also being paid in both cash and good will for helping the war effort.
+ It's only a sector/domain
Maybe even less. In some situations it may even be a case of phoning the local factor and booking a charter for a jump or two.

+ Blockade runner
I mentioned it as one of the few ways for the civilian ships to get excitement. It's a very specialized task and extremely unlikely. Missions for the PCs, however...
 
1) how long will it take to assemble the necessary ships? will corporations willingly leave their boats in places where they could be "requisitioned"? will individual captains, hearing rumors, avoid this draft? (recall when we here in california were having our electric power shortages the first thing governor davis talked about was the state seizing the power company's equipment. the company promptly responded by moving every piece of mobile equipment it could out of state and transferring it all back to its parent company.)
Remember that in the OTU the owners of the megacorps - including shipping ones - are usually ranking nobles and major cogs of the Imperial government system; so no requisition is required, but rather a redirection of assets. Take Margaret for example - she doesn't need to requisition anything to have access to Tukera ships, does she ;)
 
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