Looking for Commonalities

[Condottiere]

Sieges pin down forces, and depending on how well planned this contingency was by either the defender or the offender, consider the Medieval castle, where twenty soldiers could hold off hundreds, if the besiegers had no idea what was going on in the castle.

Or you could bottle up an army in a city where they won't be trying to disrupt your lines of communications.

 

[Archangel620]

Man Mackinder again? Nooooo!

But seriously, Human Wave is just ridiculous on War Exhaustion. Someday the legions have to come home, and when 10% of the Empire's children return, that could create instant instability and revolt possibilities.

So is the setting currently in a "Balance of Power" moment? If so, the universe is gonna have a bad day.

 

[Archangel620]

Sieges pin down forces, and depending on how well planned this contingency was by either the defender or the offender, consider the Medieval castle, where twenty soldiers could hold off hundreds, if the besiegers had no idea what was going on in the castle.

Or you could bottle up an army in a city where they won't be trying to disrupt your lines of communications.

True, but that's what sabotage and espionage are for. When you lack information, send the spies.

 

[Adam Dray]

I guess then the question is, "what Empire doesn't have sensors on all available worlds and a bunch of satellites?

Information, if we go to Sun Tzu, is the really the art of war, either deceiving or depriving it, you don't win unless you control the information.

Are there not jump signatures created from FTL? And aren't there locations best for jumping every empire could know? Now I am hitting technical probably. But, information is always vital to controlling territory. The borders in Traveller are either vigilantly guarded or loose to prevent acquisitions by surprise FTL..

I believe there is an indication when someone arrives from jump. There is no warning before they arrive.

One minute, no enemies present. The next minute, an enemy fleet in your backyard. And I think they're not much further than 100-diameters (of your planet) away from you, which really isn't far.

Maybe they jump into the system further out near the gas giant to control their refueling options (and possibly for cover). Then there's a bit of warning to the home planet and they can mobilize a fleet.

Really, why not split your fleet? Send an attack force to the planet and send other forces to secure any strategic locations like gas giants.

Sensors on every system makes sense, but it doesn't buy you instant reaction to threats. Say you have sensors on system A and they detect an enemy fleet. The fleet goes into jump space towards ally system B. First of all, I don't think the sensors can tell where the fleet went. Second, there's nothing faster than that fleet that just jumped. The best you can do is send your own starship into jump space to /every system within reach/ to warn them of the enemy fleet. The warning will come after the fleet arrives at its destination system. Maybe you send your warning ship very close to the system's planet for a slight speed-of-light communication advantage. Minutes might matter, but you're not buying days or weeks, I think.

 

[Archangel620]

I believe there is an indication when someone arrives from jump. There is no warning before they arrive.

One minute, no enemies present. The next minute, an enemy fleet in your backyard. And I think they're not much further than 100-diameters (of your planet) away from you, which really isn't far.

Maybe they jump into the system further out near the gas giant to control their refueling options (and possibly for cover). Then there's a bit of warning to the home planet and they can mobilize a fleet.

Really, why not split your fleet? Send an attack force to the planet and send other forces to secure any strategic locations like gas giants.

Sensors on every system makes sense, but it doesn't buy you instant reaction to threats. Say you have sensors on system A and they detect an enemy fleet. The fleet goes into jump space towards ally system B. First of all, I don't think the sensors can tell where the fleet went. Second, there's nothing faster than that fleet that just jumped. The best you can do is send your own starship into jump space to /every system within reach/ to warn them of the enemy fleet. The warning will come after the fleet arrives at its destination system. Maybe you send your warning ship very close to the system's planet for a slight speed-of-light communication advantage. Minutes might matter, but you're not buying days or weeks, I think.

Well really the point of sensors is to give Missiles targeting paths and movements. You could send out skirmishers to verify, and then you have minutes awareness. That let's planetary forces rally in volunteer militaries, and in conscription forces, it allows experienced personnel to be placed in stronger, more necessary defensive positions.

Time is key in any battle. Heck, 6 seconds could be life or death for a planetary defense system. Awareness of enemy fleets in sector allow the defense to protect actively their computers and lines of communication.

However, why drop in two locations as an enemy fleet. I send in a Keplar-Syndrome weapon on the planet's location.

 

[Archangel620]

But then again, I always enjoyed the recovery from tragedy in my space operas. Comedic ones are fun, but in a serious setting, the atrocity of KSing a world, if not having been done before, I think would be the equivalent of Mustard Gas in the fields of France in 1915.

 

[robject]

Kessler Syndrome, you mean? Very interesting. Using siege engines at a distance to create a sustained Kessler Effect at Geosynch. A great low-cost way to besiege a planet. I love it.

Also consider a number of asteroids or similar masses accelerated to relativistic speeds, pointed at the mainworld, as a Final Solution of sorts.

 

[mike wightman]

There are some major misconceptions about Traveller - or rather OTU space warfare - creeping into this thread. To clear some up:

1. The nature of the battleship changes with TL, spinal mounts do not dominate until the mid TLs of 12 and 13. Below TL12 missile bays can win you a battle. Meson guns are not the decisive weapons people think they are.
2. There is no such thing as stealth in space - but you can confuse a firing solution
3. There is no FTL communication or sensor network - you don't get word about an enemy invasion until courier ships bring you the news - and the enemy fleet may be right behind them.
4. A TL advantage usually means the lower TL force will have to be at least three times bigger than you in order to win.
5. Choke points are:
locations where ships refuel - gas giants, ice asteroids, comets, planets with water/methane/ammonia
bases or worlds that you want to take or neutralise or interdict

The Imperium has changed its doctrine over the years, there are several essays I could write on that subject alone

If you haven't seen it I highly recommend you take a look at this site - but be careful , you may lose a few hours trying to read everything

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php

Note that this is only once section.

 

[Archangel620]

There are some major misconceptions about Traveller - or rather OTU space warfare - creeping into this thread. To clear some up:

2. There is no such thing as stealth in space - but you can confuse a firing solution

Everyone says that, but they don't explain why. Just because hard or soft cover doesn't exist does not mean information deprivation and therefore surprise attacks, ambushes, and the such cannot exist. If the fleet requires scouts to find information, an enemy can have scout killers deployed to blind an enemy. All you need for stealth in war is Fog of War.

3. There is no FTL communication or sensor network - you don't get word about an enemy invasion until courier ships bring you the news - and the enemy fleet may be right behind them.

Yikes, no Morse Code, no pinging off satellites to move information through waveform? That's pretty low-tech communications then. Good to now.

4. A TL advantage usually means the lower TL force will have to be at least three times bigger than you in order to win.
5. Choke points are:
locations where ships refuel - gas giants, ice asteroids, comets, planets with water/methane/ammonia
bases or worlds that you want to take or neutralise or interdict

Choke points are just depots, they are any point where supply and information must stop at one location or point. A Choke point is literally anywhere where you force all knowledge, munitions, and troops to pass through one area to reach an entire sector or region.

The Imperium has changed its doctrine over the years, there are several essays I could write on that subject alone

And me on Russian Space Operations.

My philosophy on research is Terran military knowledge and Travelle setting. Anything else, I feel isn't justifiable unles The Powers That Be consent it can be used.

 

[Archangel620]

Kessler Syndrome, you mean? Very interesting. Using siege engines at a distance to create a sustained Kessler Effect at Geosynch. A great low-cost way to besiege a planet. I love it.

Also consider a number of asteroids or similar masses accelerated to relativistic speeds, pointed at the mainworld, as a Final Solution of sorts.

Yeah I derped there for a moment. Thanks for the recovery. And it is a weapon the modern Chinese use, which is why I brought up the weapon. Anti-Satellite Weapons. Good Times.

 

[whartung]

As Robert mentioned earlier. Detection is easy, lock on in harder.

You can't hide the fleet in the system, any reasonably advanced society will know that you are there, and reasonably quickly.

The key factor is that since there is no FTL communications, information moves at the speed of travel.

Interstellar travel time is roughly fixed, although the distance is not. All Jumps take about a week, regardless of the distance involved.

You can have strategic surprise (your fleet jumping in to a system where the enemy has insufficient forces), but not really tactical surprise (beyond a "I didn't know they had that weapon" scale).

Also, many Jumps tend to be "one way", in that a ship that makes the jump typically has enough fuel tankage to make the trip in to the system, but rarely has to get back home.

Geography can affect this, of course. Typically ships will use resources in the arriving system to refuel before they leave (usually a local gas giant). A ship with a J3 capable drive and fuel could make a J1 jump and back out, or J2 jump in and a J1 jump out. Ideally the jump back out is to a system that it can refuel at safely. But operationally, the basic premise tends to be that a fleet that has arrived intends to stay, at least until refueled at the local gas giant (if present).

All sorts of machinations can be done to affect this, of course. Tankers can accompany the fleet, for example. The idea of having drop tanks can affect this as well.

There is also the scattering of arrival times of the fleet (since Jump takes 168 hours +/- 10%), meaning the ships arrive in the system, randomly, over the course of of 33 hours. Some argue that the Military has figured out a way around this, and can somehow sync the fleet up to arrive at the same time. I don't know if that's actually settled canon or not.

But once arrived, you're out of contact with whatever command you didn't bring with you, and the target system typically can not respond with external resources (unless the attacking fleet just dawdles), so these are important strategic concepts.

 

[Archangel620]

So what stops Mutually Assured Planetary Destruction. If my homeworld is hit by an assault an defense is impossible, it means the next option is destroying their homeworld with everything I have. If distance matters not, the Space Triad goes live and Space Combat is no longer an Opera battle, but a hot potato match.

Hell I don't even have hit the home world. I just target the bread world *those that feed the Empire with people, food, money, or strategic resources.* Actually, why not detonate my gas giants in a doomed situation?

Realize, my education and professional training has me think like a dangerous monster with nothing left to lose, as a way to counter and stop actual dangerous monsters. If this is the Opera, as the bad guy, it is my job to commit as many atrocities as possible and break the morale of the good guy by the evil I carry out.

And honestly, espionage has to occur to protect these empires. Rarely do you have a last minute invasion. It would seem more appropriate for the setting that Big Battles occur rarely and rather skirmishes and spy operations are more frequent.

But in reality, stealth is always possible. No boarding action, no piracy, no insane raiders on the fringe? No computer attacks from a double agent 40 hours prior to attack? Has there not been an evil megalomaniac trying to brutally conquer the known universe?

The reality is that there is probably a critical 24 hours before each invasion where spies can either save the system or doom it.

 

[robject]

Yes, many electrons have been burned over the question of "how can you protect World X against Attack Type Y?"

As far as targeting a breadbasket world: also many electrons have pondered the nature of trade relationships between entire worlds, the sizes and quantities of ships required to allow an abject dependency on a world that may be weeks away, versus the technology to grow edible but nasty yeast cakes in vats on your own world.

And so on.

This is where Traveller is a bit less Space Opera, in that "everything" is driven by economics and time. In a fashion.

Resource worlds, however, do exist, in a vague way, and owning those could be a long-term goal for securing a chunk of space.

Also, worlds are rather independent. Since communication is at the speed of jump, a kind of feudal system of government emerged, where the local authorities (and the local starship captain) is required to decide what to do in a given moment. He can't wait for High Command to dictate actions.

The boundaries between empires become very long and deep, because communication is the speed of travel, and as mentioned before, travel is at least one week to any interstellar location, up to a maximum distance of about 19 light years (6 parsecs). The Zhodani Consulate's assault fleets may be six parsecs into Imperial space and laying siege to Jewell before you know it.

 

[Adam Dray]

The reality is that there is probably a critical 24 hours before each invasion where spies can either save the system or doom it.

All FTL communication happens as messages carried by jump ships. Every jump takes one week regardless of distance, with the distance usually being between 1-6 parsecs.

So again, in the case of a fleet amassing in system A to attack system B... A spy on system A detects the oncoming attack 24 hours before it will occur. What can they do?

They can jump to another system C where there's an ally fleet and send them to B as reinforcements. These will arrive one week after the enemy lands in B. Maybe that matters. I assume most space battles won't take a week to resolve.

They can jump to B and warn them. B does not have time to get reinforcements from another system. B has less than 24 hours, and out-of-system reinforcements will be at least two weeks away (one week out, one week back)--assuming that a reinforcement fleet is fueled and ready to jump.

They can try to sabotage the fleet at A. As this can happen right here and right now, this might be the best or only option. Hacking, mechanical skulduggery, assassination, kidnapping, and assisted defections seem plausible. Or infiltrate the enemy command ship, make the jump with them to B, then disable their command and control somehow during the battle.

 

[Archangel620]

Yes, many electrons have been burned over the question of "how can you protect World X against Attack Type Y?"

That is pretty much the purpose of policy-making. Fretting over Xs and Ys that the general population cannot nor cares not to worry about.

The Fleet is devoted to Ship Strategy, so I am glad I asked. I know it can be an X/Y debate.

 

[Adam Dray]

This is where the feudal nature of the Imperium sets in. There's almost no way to prevent a world from getting crushed by a superior force.

Sure, you can hide meson guns deep in the planet's crust and obliterate ships that try to bombard cities with ortillery (orbital artillery), but most planets don't have that kind of tech.

Most likely, when a fleet decides it's going to crush a planet, I'll bet it gets away with it... for now. But word gets out, and that planet had friends and protection, and a giant force amasses and finds the enemy fleet and crushes it. Make an example of them. Maybe the next time, the usurpers will think twice.

 

[ovka]

There is also the scattering of arrival times of the fleet (since Jump takes 168 hours +/- 10%), meaning the ships arrive in the system, randomly, over the course of of 33 hours. Some argue that the Military has figured out a way around this, and can somehow sync the fleet up to arrive at the same time. I don't know if that's actually settled canon or not.

Under the T5 rules, regular ships take 168+(2*(2D-7)) hours and Navy ships take 168+2D-7 hours.

One thing you *can* do is have your ships jump into the system from several different locations. That way you can hide the size of your fleet. 1 squadron in each of 126 different hexes within jump distance of the target world.

The only way to communicate this to the target world ahead of those squadrons is to have a ship stationed in each of those locations that jumps out as soon as the enemy arrives. That provides a few hours or more notice assuming the squadron stops to refuel before jumping out.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[ovka]

And honestly, espionage has to occur to protect these empires. Rarely do you have a last minute invasion. It would seem more appropriate for the setting that Big Battles occur rarely and rather skirmishes and spy operations are more frequent.

But in reality, stealth is always possible. No boarding action, no piracy, no insane raiders on the fringe? No computer attacks from a double agent 40 hours prior to attack? Has there not been an evil megalomaniac trying to brutally conquer the known universe?

The reality is that there is probably a critical 24 hours before each invasion where spies can either save the system or doom it.

... and this is the crux of the game.

The players get to be the boarding parties, pirates, insane raiders on the fringe, and double agents. They initiate or prevent the computer attacks 40 hours prior to attack.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[mike wightman]

The Imperium was forewarned of the Zhodani attack that began the Fifth Frontier War thanks to a group of PCs discovering a secret Zho base.

You can play the Fifth Frontier War without that happening...

Speaking of which get hold of the rules to that boardgame and then a lot of things about the logistics of warfare in Traveller become apparent. Even better print out two maps and get a third party to be the referee. You are only allowed to see where your fleets are and where the enemy fleets were prior to the game starting. You only find out about enemy movement when the referee has said enough time has elapsed for couriers to get the information to you. You have to rely on local admirals and nobles to do their job, because by the time the Emperor gets news of the war starting it could be all over.

One note about your spies having 24 hours notice - they don't. They are at least a week away. No subspace communicators in Traveller.

Even if your spies have 24 hours warning and send a message to a courier waiting in the outsystem ready to jum with the warning - it is possible that part of the enemy fleet may arrive before your courier...

 

[aramis]

The original question was centered around this problem I had looking at the map of the setting my father has. How the heck do Empires hold territory, and can I get a map of Space Lines of Communication, or are we in a setting where Lines are everywhere? Are there planetary and system chokepoints, and if so, how often do Empires trade these chokepoints?

For instance, in RL, the Singapore Strait, the Panama Canal, Gibraltar, and the Suez Canal are all chokepoints. These are not traded often, but in terms of wars and political events, they have been traded willingly or not. Knowing how Space Lines of Communication determines how Empires fight to hold territory of vital importance, and how diplomacy works.

But then again, my Mahan bias is leaking through. But I love studying Empires in RL, and part of a good Empire is holding a vital trade and movement route by land and by sea that forces enemies and friends to pay and move through you, or oppose you. The other part of a good empire is a force that can match any type of threat.

Sure these are things that may not matter to a player, but to a GM, that could mean not suffering through an over-smart player during a planetary invasion scenario, or having illogical modules written that discuss planetary invasions.

Its a question that starts in Space Combat and how fleets function, and to me, at least permeates the entire setting of Traveller. But I am a history and political nerd, so maybe my question is not so important to the fun of the game. It was just curiosity though. Thanks!

Also, I will go look at those books. For me, planets and empires falling have to be explained somehow, outside of a hand-wavey "bad emperor, bad government" or "corruption, instability, revolt."

Traveller is, from a Mahanian analysis, entirely pelagic. Therefore, one holds space by defending every world in reach from the border.