Maximum Viable Battleship Size

[mike wightman]

IIRC, in TNE you could build spinal scale lasers with fantastic damage, penetration, and range.

If you cheated and powered the lasers with chemical cartridges of perhaps 1 dT such a spinal scale laser could be carried on a fighter. It would be a single shot weapon, but the beam would go straight through a BB even at extreme range.

Since it is 20 years since I made any TNE designs, I may remember incorrectly...

You remember correctly - spinal lasers are nasty.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The 'if it hits' should read 'if it hits and penetrates' defences.
A #J meson has a lousy overall hit probability against a properly designed ship.

Yes, that is what I meant, sorry for being imprecise.
Yes, they are not very good at hitting (and penetrating), but there are a lot of them compared to bigger guns.

A Meson J takes 1000 dT [weapon] + 900 dT [power plant] + 900 dT [fuel] = 2800 dT (+ crew etc)
A Meson N takes 2000 dT + 1000 dT + 1000 dT = 4000 dT, only 43% more, yet they penetrates more than twice as often.

It looks like the Meson N should be better, but from what I remember Meson J worked out better. I obviously haven't done this in a while.

 

[Garnfellow]

What about T4 or T5 -- Do they change the viable sizes of battleships?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That's a really important point. The Solomani are also capped at TL 14. So potentially, against lower TL opponents, larger capital ships might have some benefits.

This would also help explain why the Rebellion was such a bloodbath.

Not, really. I haven't looked at TL15 vs TL14, but at TL13 vs TL12 vs TL11, a single TL advantage is about a factor 5, a single TL13 ship is worth 5 TL12 ships. When you fight at such long odds you really want more ships, rather than bigger ships.

 

[Garnfellow]

Not, really. I haven't looked at TL15 vs TL14, but at TL13 vs TL12 vs TL11, a single TL advantage is about a factor 5, a single TL13 ship is worth 5 TL12 ships. When you fight at such long odds you really want more ships, rather than bigger ships.

I think what I was saying was that the TL advantage possibly allows the Imperium to indulge in larger ships.

 

[flykiller]

The Solomani are also capped at TL 14.

(blink) they are?

(spit)

I haven't looked at TL15 vs TL14

a tl14 fleet needs 3/1 to match a tl15 fleet. hg2, all other things being equal, etc.

I think what I was saying was that the TL advantage possibly allows the Imperium to indulge in larger ships.

correct. irw terms a larger ship would require less armor and be cheaper to operate, and thus economically preferable if the strategic and tactical situations allow it.

 

[flykiller]

A #J meson has a lousy overall hit probability against a properly designed ship.

yeah, but a squadron of light cruisers armed with j's and on a strategic raiding assignment would be a blast to game.

 

[whartung]

With statistical combat resolution from Trillion Credit Squadron a Meson J or bigger automatically inflicts a Fuel Tank Shattered if it hits, so 100% mission kill.

I don't know how the statistical combat resolution works.

I mention the probability of a single Meson hit, regardless of the source.

It doesn't take in to account any additional effects of a hit such as critical hits due to weapon size. The large ships are immune to the extra crits since the spinal tubes aren't big enough to impose them, however just being hit by the spinal alone gives a free crit as I recall.

But if your factor 3 Meson Bay happens to hit something, there's a 20% MK right there.

 

[aramis]

Mesons also "destroy" ships primarily by killed their crews. Repairing and replacing damaged and destroyed systems is simply a matter of money, time, and yard space.

Which is not consistent with the text of what's left behind in Striker (nor, for that matter, in HG).

In striker, nothing is left standing within the area of effect of a meson spinal. It turns a minimum 10m circle into rubble, destroys any building or vehicle outright, and kills any life forms. Even the ground itself is disrupted

 

[Garnfellow]

(blink) they are?

(spit)

In the Classic Era the Solomani are capped at TL 14, but in Solomani and Aslan (set in 1121, during the Second Rim War) this is lifted to TL 15.

There was one TL 15 exception in an Imperialines issue: Darsei/Aldebaran (Aldebaran 1401 A765845–F), a member of the Bootean Federation.

The T5SS also has a TL 15 Confederation world in Spica sector: Trilion/Trillion (Spica 0634 A8C899C-F). As that sector is still under review, it's unclear if that's an error or design. The T5SS rolled back a lot of TL 15 worlds, but this could certainly be justified in 1105 from presumed Hiver contact.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It doesn't take in to account any additional effects of a hit such as critical hits due to weapon size. The large ships are immune to the extra crits since the spinal tubes aren't big enough to impose them, however just being hit by the spinal alone gives a free crit as I recall.

Spinals get an extra damage roll for each factor bigger than 9. PAs reduced by armour/2. So a Meson J roll for damage 10 times on each radiation and interior explosion. They also get free crits.

But if your factor 3 Meson Bay happens to hit something, there's a 20% MK right there.

No, with a factor less than A it gets +6 on the damage table, so no crits or Fuel Tanks Shattered. Besides it will not penetrate even a minimal screen.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Which is not consistent with the text of what's left behind in Striker (nor, for that matter, in HG).

In striker, nothing is left standing within the area of effect of a meson spinal. It turns a minimum 10m circle into rubble, destroys any building or vehicle outright, and kills any life forms. Even the ground itself is disrupted

Not entirely, there is also a lot of radiation killing the crew in a bigger sphere. A spinal meson hit will generally produce a few crits, consistent with a 10 m sphere of total destruction.

 

[aramis]

Not entirely, there is also a lot of radiation killing the crew in a bigger sphere. A spinal meson hit will generally produce a few crits, consistent with a 10 m sphere of total destruction.

10m is the diameter of a Factor 1 meson gun.
A factor A meson does a 100m sphere.
Factor F does 150m.
Factor L does 200m

 

[AnotherDilbert]

10m is the diameter of a Factor 1 meson gun.
A factor A meson does a 100m sphere.
Factor F does 150m.
Factor L does 200m

Sorry, I only remembered 10 m for the battlefield meson.

That should be a Ship Vaporised if we hit dead centre. Perhaps we have to assume that we mostly miss and only affect a part of the ship.

 

[mike wightman]

Here are the rules as written:

Spinal Mounts: All spinal mount weapons which hit and penetrate inflict one extra damage roll (on each appropriate table) for each letter by which their size exceeds 9. For example, a particle accelerator with a code of A gets 2 rolls on both the surface explosion and radiation tables; a factor of B receives 3 rolls, etc. The number of extra rolls is reduced by one for each factor of armor the target ship has (but a weapon always gets one roll). Meson guns are not reduced by armor.

Critical Hits: All batteries whose weapon code exceeds the size code of the target ship will inflict (if they hit and penetrate) automatic critical hits equal to the size difference. For example, if a missile battery of factor 9 hits a size 4 ship, it will (in addition to any other damage) inflict 5 critical hits. These critical hits are reduced in number by one for each two factors of armor the target ship has; roundodd numbers down. Meson gun hits are not reduced by armor.

A meson J only gets free crits on ships of size H and lower.

 

[flykiller]

Round 1 - Everyone Shoots, Round 2 - Sweep Up The Rubble

actually, that might be a great scenario for prospectors - investigating old battlefields. don't know why I never thought of that before ....

 

[mike wightman]

You don't have Adventure 1 Kinunir?

 

[flykiller]

no, have nothing past lbb6. (never saw the point ....)

but I don't mean intact ships, I mean entire battlefields that have vectored off into wherever. imperial ships, enemy ships, in various states of repair and disrepair.

 

[mike wightman]

Adventure 1 Referee's Notes section:

Battlefield Salvage: The area of space where the Battle of Two Suns was fought could have starship wreckage, both of Kinunir class ships and of other ships involved, in salvagable condition. Serviceable parts for the restoration of the Kinunir could be available.

 

[flykiller]

cool. but I still should have thought of it.