casquilho
SOC-13
I wonder if that is true even when they are clustered like the cities in the greater Los Angeles area. Does the proximity impact this or not. Would be interesting either way.
Mega-Structures IYTU?
- Thread starter Spinward Scout
- Start date
The causation could go the other direction, too: the size of the city/county/state/oblast/whatever could adjust to include (and only include) populations of those sizes through either annexation or secession.
This could be a consequence of state or national government setting the size of subordinate governmental units at powers-of-ten numbers of residents, or those values being those that are most-amenable to that particular level of governance.
Keep in mind, statistically, one should expect about 5/6 of the Imperial population to be from Pop A worlds under CT/MT/T4... and 10/11 from pops A&B... But that's 1/36 and 1/18 of the mainworlds... 61,728,271,600 per 36 worlds is the expected population rate, of which 50,000,000,000 are on the 1 pop A
But the 2d6 throw was never intended to be every world, just the most important in the system. (with subordinate worlds being smaller, they seldom factor in.)
And Mongoose, by adjusting Pop by physicals, makes pop 12 possible. In a subsector, if present, a pop 11 or 12 is going to like be 90% of the pop of the subsector all by themselves...
and to dominate trade for 2-3 jumps around.
But the 2d6 throw was never intended to be every world, just the most important in the system. (with subordinate worlds being smaller, they seldom factor in.)
And Mongoose, by adjusting Pop by physicals, makes pop 12 possible. In a subsector, if present, a pop 11 or 12 is going to like be 90% of the pop of the subsector all by themselves...
and to dominate trade for 2-3 jumps around.
I'm not aware of that in MgT2e unless it's in the Sector Construction Guide which I don't have. The Core Rulebook suggests that a world could have a B or even C pop code if the referee decides to do so; the World Builder's Handbook also allows them by referee fiat, but does make reference to the Sector Construction Guide.
My understanding is thar GURPS Traveller has some rules for adjusting the population code roll according to main world characteristics. Is that, perhaps, what you were thinking of?
My apologies. I've dug out my PDF of the MgT1e core rules and there is indeed a sidebar with optional rules for adjusting the population code for Size or Atmosphere - there are three conditions which give a -1 DM, but only one condition which gives a +1 DM, so the maximum pop code is B (hundreds of billions).
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
The only mega-structure in my Traveller that has been defined is my take on the concept of Clarke's Rama.
I have a number of slight differences with the history of my Traveller setting - no Ancients (as later placed in the game), preceding civilizations follow the Forerunner concept of Andre Norton instead (many different ones over the eons, none significantly higher-tech than TL18), with a few different ones transplanting hominid (and canid) populations from Terra to other systems in the "galaxy-local area" (and doing a little "uplift" work as well).
My mgstr is actually from Terra/Sol's past - the civilization of Atlantis/Mu/Lemuria did exist from ~35,000 years ago to the start of the last glaciation period ~29,000* years ago.
This civilization developed a philosophical split between those who wanted to advance and explore the cosmos and those who wished to return to a more "ecologically-harmonious" existence. The "outlookers" convinced the "indwellers" to help develop the means to leave the system permanently by promising to "clean-up" all of the ditrius and physical remains of 5,000+ years of civilization before departing, leaving just a civilization comparable to the agricultural early 1800s [plus just enough dispersed light industry to maintain medical care at about the "2,000AD" level].
Needless to say, when the glaciation returned in strong form around 29kya this remnant of civilization disappeared, with the "low-footprint" structures being either erased by the ice or just deteriorating into micro-debris over the following millennia.
As for the "outlookers", while some left on colony ships to plant themselves on other worlds (accounting for nearly all of the "minor human species"), a small group decided to do long-term exploration in gigantic self-propelled vessels (jump-capable but designed for inter-stellar normal-space travel as well.
These vessels (12 in number) were sent out in different directions and have long since lost contact with each other and with any surviving "Atlantean" daughter colonies.
Note that this history is quite different from the one the adventuring party is given in the attached document - I used this in a game I refereed in the late 1980s, and as the comments at the end of the document indicate, the party was blatantly lied to by the government of the ship.
Here is one such explorer craft:
* the period from 130kya to 29kya was an interglacial period with varying degrees of localized glaciation.
I have a number of slight differences with the history of my Traveller setting - no Ancients (as later placed in the game), preceding civilizations follow the Forerunner concept of Andre Norton instead (many different ones over the eons, none significantly higher-tech than TL18), with a few different ones transplanting hominid (and canid) populations from Terra to other systems in the "galaxy-local area" (and doing a little "uplift" work as well).
My mgstr is actually from Terra/Sol's past - the civilization of Atlantis/Mu/Lemuria did exist from ~35,000 years ago to the start of the last glaciation period ~29,000* years ago.
This civilization developed a philosophical split between those who wanted to advance and explore the cosmos and those who wished to return to a more "ecologically-harmonious" existence. The "outlookers" convinced the "indwellers" to help develop the means to leave the system permanently by promising to "clean-up" all of the ditrius and physical remains of 5,000+ years of civilization before departing, leaving just a civilization comparable to the agricultural early 1800s [plus just enough dispersed light industry to maintain medical care at about the "2,000AD" level].
Needless to say, when the glaciation returned in strong form around 29kya this remnant of civilization disappeared, with the "low-footprint" structures being either erased by the ice or just deteriorating into micro-debris over the following millennia.
As for the "outlookers", while some left on colony ships to plant themselves on other worlds (accounting for nearly all of the "minor human species"), a small group decided to do long-term exploration in gigantic self-propelled vessels (jump-capable but designed for inter-stellar normal-space travel as well.
These vessels (12 in number) were sent out in different directions and have long since lost contact with each other and with any surviving "Atlantean" daughter colonies.
Note that this history is quite different from the one the adventuring party is given in the attached document - I used this in a game I refereed in the late 1980s, and as the comments at the end of the document indicate, the party was blatantly lied to by the government of the ship.
Here is one such explorer craft:
* the period from 130kya to 29kya was an interglacial period with varying degrees of localized glaciation.
Last edited:
BasicPassage
SOC-2
The sheer scale of matter and energy (conversion) tech needed to manufacture a Ringworld with a radius of 1AU is so staggeringly/mind boggling large that the effort needed to construct such structures can be thought of as counterproductive (it costs more to do than you get out of the endeavor) ... to say nothing of the TL required to make it even possible.
Dyson Spheres run into the same problems, but on an even more massive scale. The sheer quantity of matter needed for a 1 AU radius project will often times exceed the sum total of planetary mass available in most star systems.
In John Scalzi's series of Old Man's War books, a high(er than Humans) technology alien species built a Dyson Sphere around a White Dwarf... so as to harness all of the energy radiating away from that white dwarf.
This is MUCH more practical of an application, since the "useful radius" for doing so is MUCH CLOSER than 1 AU from a G-type star ... meaning that the Dyson Sphere radius can be MUCH SMALLER and therefore does not need "wonder materials" at the (impossible) tech level of Scrith.
A ringworld needs the wonder material Scrith because its rotating for spin gravity, a Dyson sphere typically isn't. The classic Dyson sphere isn't even a solid structure, its a swarm of many satellites or stations that collectively block out a good fraction of a stars light. Those don't need any fancy materials, enough regular old solar panels orbiting around the sun could make a half decent Dyson swarm. Though you would probably want something cheaper and lighter. Concentrated solar is nice cause the mirrors for it can be foil thin in freefall. Enough thin metal foil solar concentrators to englobe the sun around the orbit of mercury would take less than the mass of mercury, which is mostly metal, so that's convenient.
If you want to make a more substantial swarm with space habitats and such you need more material, but the planets do provide quite a bit. And if they aren't enough, the sun has several thousand earths worth of heavy elements swirling around in it, more than all the planets combined. They are super energy intensive to get at, but well, if you're near the sun you have quite a lot of energy to play with. You get some material for free from the solar wind, which you can collect and sort with magnetic fields. And you can increase the amount of material being blown off by using mirrors to heat up small regions, that's the simplest low tech method of "star lifting". If you lift off enough matter, you can extend the star's lifespan too. That's a much bigger project than a Dyson swarm, but hey, the lifespan of G type stars are billions of years, so you have plenty of time.
Why?
With modern maneuver and grav drives, their utility doesn't come anywhere near the complexity, cost, and maintenance to justify one. (And "modern" M drives aren't that modern, they're 1000s of years old.)
If anything I can see stumbling upon a world with the remnants of an ancient, failed beanstalk. Beanstalk failure is covered in one of the Red/Blue/Green Mars book -- its not pretty.
Because they were built in the early days of colonization of the sector, and Grav tech was TL 9-10. The max tech level of the worlds in my sector are TL 12.
I have space elevators, people call the "tethers" imtu, grav tech is pushed up the tech tree, grav everything is not ideal, imo. I like keeping other vehicle types relevant. I also have a lot of stations, of various inspiration such as Varney's Gaea Trilogy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaea_trilogy
Page 74 of Andromeda Dragons, the system of GJ 1221, a Belter community:
Page 74 of Andromeda Dragons, the system of GJ 1221, a Belter community:
As an aside, it would be a fair argument against a Beanstalk, just simply due to the inherent risk of one. Catastrophe on a Beanstalk is a global catastrophe.
And, just straight out, hard to imagine the costs being justified, or it paying for itself over who knows how many generations.
I don't know the heavy lift capability of one would be worth it.
BasicPassage
SOC-2
I feel like global catastrophe is overselling it a bit. Even a rather large beanstalk cable is only a couple of feet across and made of very light weight materials, its terminal velocity isn't going to be very high. It would suck for you if it lands directly on top of you, and would wrap around the world, but the path of destruction would be very thin. Most of it's landing over the ocean or unpopulated wilderness, and even if it did intersect a city at some point, its only taking out a few city blocks and you have hours of warning.
And if you're using a wide flat ribbon or a web of many thin redundant cables with spacing for maintenance, rather than one think cable, the few bits that don't burn up could have such a low terminal velocity it just flutters to the ground and is just kind of a nuisance rather than a disaster.
The transport tube in mine is made of polymer aerogel, working off pneumatic principles, I guess if it fell over it would be "The Great Cellophane Disaster."
en.wikipedia.org
Aerogel - Wikipedia
King Midas
SOC-9
I never thought about it, but I presumed they would be thicker, and the elevator would run up and down the interior. More thought, and how about both? Having an interior and an exterior elevator would allow passing without some kind of switch track system.
King Midas
SOC-9
Interesting stuff. I have a couple of thoughts.The transport tube in mine is made of polymer aerogel, working off pneumatic principles, I guess if it fell over it would be "The Great Cellophane Disaster."
Aerogel - Wikipedia
<Pedant mode>
I know what they are trying to say, but it seems to me that aerogel would be a very good conductor of radiant energy. in that almost no heat is lost in transference. Of course if for some reason you wanted to absorb radiant energy, you could just put little black flecks of paint in the mix...
/Pedant
Second, I'm glad they mentioned waterproofing late in the article. I was reading "dissolves in water" and visualizing a huge heap of melted spun sugar after the first rainstorm!
