2300 vs the Vilani

[Meeko100]

I really like the idea that the Terran Mercs go and supersede the Vilani because they became so important to the existence of the Empire they become the effective leaders. "Don't screw with the barbarians with the guns. They have much more practice then we do"

On the topic of "Terran Flu", it seems incredibly likely. Only one place in the Known Universe would have microorganisms so intimately close with humans, both illness-wise and other intestine sstaffers. Seems likely enough to me that the special cooking needed to be done to food was because of this.

So, only one group of people would have immunity to any of these diseases. The Colombian Exchange of diseases would look like a joke to this, until the Terrans started providing their medical knowledge. Any disease that would have stricken the minor human races or the Vilani would have been very slight, incidental bacteria that less were targeting human biology, more just were exist there and causing human biology to get upset by its presence. Smallpox, The Flu, Cholera, Malaria, any number of disease, carried either incidentally on the ships crew, or in the ships cargo would likely cream whatever world they landed on.

So that may change how the Terran Mercs would have been received. Its possible that they would have seen such an issue coming, with things like the Colombian Exchange in history, and the many times someone on earth has managed to get very sick from another lands disease, they could have seen the problem coming when they first made contact, and had every ship carry a doctor to care for/share medical knowledge.

 

[mike wightman]

Instead of snake oil and beads the Terrans take antibiotics and viral inoculations with them?

 

[SanDragon]

I don't remember anything about a great Vilani plague after the Terrans and Vilani met.

No diseases on Vland and millenia of isolation make me wonder...

Did the Vilani evolve to the point where they were no longer vulnerable to Terran diseases, or was the idea never addressed?

 

[epicenter00]

I don't remember anything about a great Vilani plague after the Terrans and Vilani met.

It's described in the GURPS: Interstellar Wars.

I personally really dislike this pseudo-intellectual angle of the "Columbian Exchange diseases" all over again idea. It's always seemed a bit ridiculous.

We have to assume that a lot of these alien worlds have their own microorganisms and micro-scale things such as spores or the alien pollen equivalents. Even if these microbes are not designed to live in human bodies, they can still cause diseases. Some of the most severe Earth diseases are caused by microorganisms that weren't intended to live in humans doing so.

A disease that kills its host too quickly is a bad disease; they're supposed to be parasites that live off their host. If they kill their host so fast they can hardly spread the disease, they're signing their own extinction warrant (well that's probably too dramatic, more like they're signing their own warrant to forever remain some "remote jungle bug"). However, since a microbe that was not evolved to parasite on humans might work too well. Many of these alien microorganisms have to be able to infect humans; some are going to require the same rough requirements as earthlife - familiar oxygen-water life. Some number of them are going to have virulent effects on human populations, perhaps just as a side-effect of their unique evolutionary development (say some bug that remains harmless for 50 years, long enough to between the flare cycles of their local star, then they start to produce some protein coat to survive the flare period, and these proteins are deadly to humans).

Since so many of these worlds seem compatible with Earth life in Traveller, the problem is even worse.

If anything, with tens of thousands of worlds in their Empire, it's more likely the Vilani are going to kill off earth humans with bugs they've come to conclude are harmless but we have no defense against.

 

[SanDragon]

Well, that explains part of my ignorance.

I don't have any GURPS stuff.

Not one scrap of it!

 

[aramis]

The most lethal disease that can be propagated is an incurable but very mild disease and highly contagious disease that prevents reproduction.

Perhaps a viroid or virus that turns off germ cell formation.

Such a disease would take some time to detect, and would ensure the next generation was the last.

 

[Murph]

Actually rhinovirus is an ideal vector, because no one ever defeats the common cold....

The most lethal disease that can be propagated is an incurable but very mild disease and highly contagious disease that prevents reproduction.

Perhaps a viroid or virus that turns off germ cell formation.

Such a disease would take some time to detect, and would ensure the next generation was the last.

 

[McPerth]

The most lethal disease that can be propagated is an incurable but very mild disease and highly contagious disease that prevents reproduction.

Perhaps a viroid or virus that turns off germ cell formation.

Such a disease would take some time to detect, and would ensure the next generation was the last.

Mumps, being a qute benign, droplet spread, highly contagious virical disease, leaves a small percentage of adults (mostly males) that are affected sterile. Not so hard as you say, but it can have an efect on the population growht in the next generation.

And in any case, an epidemic may have a great economic impact, as can leave many people temporaly incapacited (mostly adults, as its milder in children) without grat loss of life (death is very rare).

 

[BwapTED]

Well, Vilani are the ultimate creationists, intelligent design or whatever the parlance is for those who deny evolution which accounts for their worldview (universalview). As I said, much of the scientific revolution before is premised upon a denal of God. So imagine if biological subjects were all treated as unique organisms ordained by God(s), as the Vilani are likely to believe. So even, as their physics determined that breaking the Sky did not anger the Sky God, it was because the God existed in another dimension. Or that weather was the interaction of complex elements created by conditions on the globe rather than divine intervention. Many more mysteries remain. Now, if biology was the preview of the priestly class (the Shuggii) then those people may investigate the effects in biochemistry but never make the leap into genetics.

Part of the problem is that everything in today's world is subscribed to genetics (or at least a significant portion of the discourse) that it becomes almost metaphysical. Now, we have to imagine a world without the scientific revolution (unless you have traveled to the parts of the world that I have where there is modernism without modernity) impacting on all aspects. But, the analogy that I made earlier about creationists applies.

I am fairly well convinced that the Scientific Revolution was possible because of certain theological beliefs. Denial of a Supreme Being or Creator is not only not one of those ideas; it runs directly counter to the core ideas.
But you mention what seems like a very different (from what prevailed in Europe of the time in question) Vilani religion, with multiple deities of an elemental nature.
So European history may be applicable here by way of how showing how the Vilani did NOT develop their intellectual traditions.

We cannot get much further into the RW history I mentioned in this forum, I think.

But your mention of clerics and genetics makes me recall Gregor Mendel. Not just a man with an avid interest in peas.


I have edited, because it now seems clear you meant a VILANI Scientific Revolution, nothing to do with the Earth historical SR.

 

[BwapTED]

But count me in the camp that thinks the Vilani should probably have had more experience with alien diseases than the GURPS stuff suggests. After all, they had contact with multiple species and subspecies of humanity on various worlds.
Surely they had encountered pandemic and epidemic situations before?


I only buy the Plague of Duskir as biowarfare by the Terrans.
And even then, a quarantine should have been relatively easy to effect , given the distances, spacesuits and air locks, and all that.

The Vilani should have orbitally bombarded those damned, dirty apes back into the Stone Age. I guess they found out the truth too late.

Up the Ziru Sirka!

 

[mike wightman]

My take on it is that the Ancients bio-engineered all transplanted races with advanced immune systems so diseases just didn't affect them.

This includes the bio-engineered humans left on earth.

Problem is the diseases of earth then get a couple of hundred thousand years to evolve strains that start affecting humans again. The humans of earth evolve immune systems that can cope, the Vilani just don't have this evolutionary advantage since they are encountering different pathogens.

Notice that in the Zho alien module it actually explains that the originally transplanted bio-engineered humans from earth evolved into two species until eventually a third hybrid became dominant.

The vilani must have undergone similar evolutionary changes - unless bio-engineered not to.

 

[BwapTED]

As an alternative:

Contact between the French ( or whomever makes sense) and the Vilani at Barnard's Star ( or wherever makes sense).

Developments as you like.

Interstellar Wars flare up.

And then the Plague or Duskir hits the Earthmen. After all, who are the isolated natives that lack previous exposure to multiple diseases carried by men on vessels from far away?
The Vilani have contacted numerous human races and visited many worlds.
They have likely been dealing with alien diseases for millennia.

So the Earthmen get hit by Denebian Pertussis or Antarean Fever or what have you.


The Vilani win the Interstellar Wars and occupy Earth along with several of its colonies.
The Vilani bureaucrats, backed by soldiers, stop the pandemics through a program of compulsory vaccination and other treatment. Mortality drops.


Some Earthmen emigrate to the independent colonies. Many accept the new regime.
Others make their way out to the alien stars, exploring, trading, and fighting.

The Vargr, Kafers, and others races may pose threats to the victorious Ziru Sirka.

 

[Murph]

Interesting

As an alternative:

Contact between the French ( or whomever makes sense) and the Vilani at Barnard's Star ( or wherever makes sense).

Developments as you like.

Interstellar Wars flare up.

And then the Plague or Duskir hits the Earthmen. After all, who are the isolated natives that lack previous exposure to multiple diseases carried by men on vessels from far away?
The Vilani have contacted numerous human races and visited many worlds.
They have likely been dealing with alien diseases for millennia.

So the Earthmen get hit by Denebian Pertussis or Antarean Fever or what have you.


The Vilani win the Interstellar Wars and occupy Earth along with several of its colonies.
The Vilani bureaucrats, backed by soldiers, stop the pandemics through a program of compulsory vaccination and other treatment. Mortality drops.


Some Earthmen emigrate to the independent colonies. Many accept the new regime.
Others make their way out to the alien stars, exploring, trading, and fighting.

The Vargr, Kafers, and others races may pose threats to the victorious Ziru Sirka.

 

[BwapTED]

In a 2300 vs Vilani scenario, I imagine gravitics would give the Vilani advantages until the Earthmen managed to obtain the tech by espionage or salvage and reverse engineering.

 

[BwapTED]

Interesting

I am glad you find it so.

Another thing to consider with a 2300 scenario: Earth has rival nation states instead of a global federation.

It seems possible that one of the Earth based star faring nations might try to remain neutral, or even make an alliance with the Ziru Sirka.

Forgive me if I have duplicated something already dealt with upthread.

 

[Murph]

Hmm, the Vilani means that at some point WE become the Solomani....

 

[Murph]

I suspect a little of each.

In a 2300 vs Vilani scenario, I imagine gravitics would give the Vilani advantages until the Earthmen managed to obtain the tech by espionage or salvage and reverse engineering.

 

[mike wightman]

In the years between the wars traders from Earth just bought advanced technology from Vilani worlds. They sent students to technical colleges and universities on Vilani worlds.

I have a pet theory that the espionage they conducted included breaking into the forbidden technology archives, which is why the Terrans were able to leap ahead of the Vilani technology wise - jump 3, meson guns, AI robots...

 

[BwapTED]

In the years between the wars traders from Earth just bought advanced technology from Vilani worlds. They sent students to technical colleges and universities on Vilani worlds.

I have a pet theory that the espionage they conducted included breaking into the forbidden technology archives, which is why the Terrans were able to leap ahead of the Vilani technology wise - jump 3, meson guns, AI robots...

I think that makes good sense if you want to preserve the idea of Earthmen beating the Space Empire through superior pluck and cleverness.
This is a fun, classic sci fi theme.

I prefer the Ziru Sirka conquering Earth. But that's classic stuff, too.

In any case, I like this idea of a 2300 + OTU mashup.

 

[Bromo33333]

My take on it is that the Ancients bio-engineered all transplanted races with advanced immune systems so diseases just didn't affect them.

In GURPS Interstellar War, diseases caught from Terrans was a very big source of death in the Vilani Empire according to the source book. So while the bio-engineering might be a great idea, it couldbe that the transplanted human races just didn't experience the native biome so there were a limited number of diseases they'd be susceptible to.

But what you are doing is plausible as well, I never viewed GURPS as being Canon, and of course a 2300AD-Vilani crossover isn't Canon either so have at it!