OTU Only: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way from Collace

[boomslang]

Where is RAW broken? Where, after 1981, is it specified that X-boats don't have power plants?

Engineering specifications for Xboats are not given in CT after 1981.

As late as S9 in 1981, however, they are still explicitly described as having only Jump drives. As S9 is a supplement to HG2, all vessels in it are (re-)designed under HG2 or, in the specific case of the Lightning class, converted to HG2 from HG1.

Reverse-engineering shows the S9 Xboat appears to also be rendered under HG2.

 

[boomslang]

The OTU does not use the CT rules as written.

This.

This right here exactly.

It never has, and it never will.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Engineering specifications for Xboats are not given in CT after 1981.

Quite, so where are the broken rules?

Reverse-engineering shows the S9 Xboat appears to also be rendered under HG2.

No, it is obviously identical to the S7 version. It's even specifically designated as a LBB2 design:

Some ships (the scout/courier, the xboat, and the mercenary cruiser) were designed using the starship design rules in Book 2.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The OTU does not use the CT rules as written.

It never has, and it never will.

They occasionally ignore RAW, but not consistently, and almost never when it comes to one of the cornerstones of the OTU: the limitations on FTL travel and communication.

Ancient or alien (Annic Nova) tech does not count as they are specifically outside the system.

It's not like we see time travel, J-10 ships, or ships not requiring fuel in every other adventure.

Of course minor details are fudged to fit the story, that is to be expected in an rpg.

 

[Grav_Moped]

...
Quite, the Far Trader was redesigned as needed. Note that 2 G is not stated, it might have it or it might not, we don't know. The extra MCr 4 for the bigger M-drive does not earn any extra revenue, just extra cost. The tonnage does not fit exactly with either 1 G or 2 G.
...

Build both, each under the appropriate rule set. The '77 version adds up if the drives are Jump-B, Maneuver-A, Power-A.

The only reason the later version doesn't match exactly with Jump-B, Maneuver-B, Power-B is that it sets aside 1 Td for fire control for a second turret (not installed). The mismatch would be worse if it had only a Maneuver-A.

In '77, going from 1G to 2G in an A2 takes 15Td and costs MCr 12 (PP-A to B, MD-A to B, add 10Td fuel).

In '81, it takes 2Td and MCr 4 since the larger powerplant and extra fuel are already mandatory.
And if you're going rules as written, having 2G allows landing on worlds larger than Size 8. This enables additional trading opportunities.

 

[Grav_Moped]

They occasionally ignore RAW, but not consistently, and almost never when it comes to one of the cornerstones of the OTU: the limitations on FTL travel and communication.

Ancient or alien (Annic Nova) tech does not count as they are specifically outside the system.

It's not like we see time travel, J-10 ships, or ships not requiring fuel in every other adventure.

Of course minor details are fudged to fit the story, that is to be expected in an rpg.

A world on an XBoat route sees at least one ship per day, every day, that either doesn't require powerplant fuel or can draw its jump fuel from a tender. This explicitly breaks the RAW limitations on FTL travel with routinely-used 3I technology. Maybe it's just wallpaper for the setting? (Of course it is, but it's wallpaper with significant implications for the setting.)

Engineering specifications for Xboats are not given in CT after 1981.

As late as S9 in 1981, however, they are still explicitly described as having only Jump drives. As S9 is a supplement to HG2, all vessels in it are (re-)designed under HG2 or, in the specific case of the Lightning class, converted to HG2 from HG1.

Reverse-engineering shows the S9 Xboat appears to also be rendered under HG2.

It could have been. On the other hand, even a properly-designed TL-13 HG2 XBoat comes up 2Td short if you keep the 13Td "extensive data banks etc." from the LBB2'77 version. It can't be an exact match until TL-15.*


*My spreadsheet had an error that led me to believe it could be an exact match at TL-13 previously.

 

[aramis]

Quite, so where are the broken rules?

The XBoat breaks the rule for Bk2-81 of needing a PP equal to the higher of MD or JD,

The Engineering Section: Drives are installed in the engineering section. A
non-starship must have a maneuver drive and a power plant. A starship must have a
a jump drive and a power plant; a maneuver drive may also be installed, but is not
required. In all cases, the power plant letter must equal or exceed either the maneu-
ver drive letter or the jump drive letter, whichever is higher.…

Other OTU inconsistencies...

An analysis of the frequencies of words in GDW published sectors notes ratios inconsistent with World Gen (bk 3 or Bk 6).

None of the adventures apply solar 100D limits; indeed, solar exclusion zones seem absent from rules generally. Sol's diameter is 0.00929 AU; this would have a solar exclusion zone of 0.929 AU...

(It is worth noting that the biggest lack of application of this is GTFT not including a conversion from in system travel time. )

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The tonnage does not fit exactly with either 1 G or 2 G.

Build both, each under the appropriate rule set. The '77 version adds up if the drives are Jump-B, Maneuver-A, Power-A.

I did, of course, otherwise I would not have been able to comment on size:
Far Trader (CT S7):

AT-22111R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 58,6         200 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=4
batteries                                            TL=9
             Pass=6 Low=4 Cargo=61 Fuel=50 EP=2 Agility=1

Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                    61        65  
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             2          200            
Configuration       Cone               2                     22  
Scoops              Streamlined                                  
                                                                 
                                                                 
Jump Drive          B                  2    1      15        20  
Manoeuvre D         A                  1    1       1         4  
Power Plant         A                  1    1       4         8  
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      50            
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1      20         1  
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4  
                                                                 
Staterooms                                 10      40         5  
Low Berths                                  4       2         0,2
                                                                 
Cargo                                              61            
                                                                 
Empty hardpoint                             2       2         0,2
Air/raft            4 Dton                  1       4         0,6
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 65,00            Sum:      61        65  
Class Cost          MCr  7,08           Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 58,56

Far Trader (CT A3):

AT-22212R1-020000-10001-0       MCr 66,2         200 Dton
bearing     1     1   1                            Crew=5
batteries   1     1   1                              TL=9
             Pass=1 Low=4 Cargo=64 Fuel=60 EP=4 Agility=1

Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                    64        73,5
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             2          200            
Configuration       Cone               2                     22  
Scoops              Streamlined                                  
                                                                 
                                                                 
Jump Drive          B                  2    1      15        20  
Manoeuvre D         A                  1    1       1         4  
Power Plant         B                  2    1       7        16  
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      60            
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1      20         1  
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4  
                                                                 
Staterooms                                  6      24         3  
Low Berths                                  4       2         0,2
                                                                 
Cargo                                              64            
                                                                 
Mixed Turret        Full                    1       1         1,1
  Weapon            Missile            1    1                 0,8
  Weapon            Pulse              1    1                 0,5
  Weapon            Sand               2    1                 0,3
Empty hardpoint                             1       1         0,1
Air/raft            4 Dton                  1       4         0,6
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 73,50            Sum:      64        73,5
Class Cost          MCr  8,02           Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 66,21

Note that cargo comes out at 64 Dt with 1 G and 62 Dt with 2 G, not the specified 61 Dt in either case.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A world on an XBoat route sees at least one ship per day, every day, that either doesn't require powerplant fuel or can draw its jump fuel from a tender. This explicitly breaks the RAW limitations on FTL travel with routinely-used 3I technology.

It was specified for LBB2'77 and supposedly quite RAW-compliant.

How it is done is not specified for the '81 edition, just that X-boats exist and work. As noted by us both X-boats can be built using LBB5'80.

No magic or broken rules required.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The XBoat breaks the rule for Bk2-81 of needing a PP equal to the higher of MD or JD,

That is a LBB2'77 design, published when that was current.

Why expect it to be compliant with any other system? As discussed in this thread RAW-compliant X-boats can be designed with LBB'80 for the '81 edition.

An analysis of the frequencies of words in GDW published sectors notes ratios inconsistent with World Gen (bk 3 or Bk 6).

Which is perfectly RAW:

World Occurrence: There is a basic one-half chance normally that a world (and its attendant stellar system) will be in a hex. Systematically check each hex, throwing one die and marking the hex with a circle if the result is a 4,5,or 6. This indicates that a world is present; otherwise, leave the hex blank.
The referee may elect to alter the normal chances of worlds, making them more frequent or less frequent to correspond to specific regions of the galaxy. This is easily accomplished by imposing a DM of +1 or -1 on the whole subsector, or on broad areas within a subsector.

Of course you can fudge rolls in an RPG.

Note that you are supposed to modify the rolled results if it suits you, e.g.:

World Size: The generation tables assume that the world in question will be a
solid matter sphere. Some alternatives are possible, although they are rare enough to require implementation by the referee.

The Imperium building a Dyson sphere, that would be breaking the setting! But perfectly RAW by LBB3.


When I talk about breaking RAW or breaking the setting, I of course don't mean fudging a roll here and there...

None of the adventures apply solar 100D limits; indeed, solar exclusion zones seem absent from rules generally. Sol's diameter is 0.00929 AU; this would have a solar exclusion zone of 0.929 AU...

Stellar diameters and exclusion zones were established deep into the LBB6 system? That was kind of optional and I suspect most people didn't get that far into the tables.

But, yes, directly specifying that you can safely jump from or to a position deep in a gravity well would be breaking RAW.

Just ignoring the star would be LBB1-3 default.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I did, of course, otherwise I would not have been able to comment on size:
...
Note that cargo comes out at 64 Dt with 1 G and 62 Dt with 2 G, not the specified 61 Dt in either case.

It does if the computer is a Mod/2, not a 1/bis.

 

[Grav_Moped]

It was specified for LBB2'77 and supposedly quite RAW-compliant.

How it is done is not specified for the '81 edition, just that X-boats exist and work. As noted by us both X-boats can be built using LBB5'80.

No magic or broken rules required.

They can't be the LBB5'80 version until TL-15 because the 13Td of mail servers and comms gear of the LBB2'77 version won't fit. Until then, they're either breaking the '77 version (by allowing smaller data/comms stuff) or the TL of the OTU.

Something that does J4 in 100 Td can be built at TL-13. But it doesn't have all of the 13Td unaccounted for by normal starship components of the LBB2'77 version.

 

[Grav_Moped]

And for me, the bottom line is what the '81 change to LBB2 was intended to rule out.

As I said earlier,
"J-4 in a 200Td hull (TL-10), J-5 in a 400 or 600 Td hull (TL-12 & 13), and J-6 in a 600Td hull (TL-14) have full 4-week powerplant fuel allocations and room for maneuver drives."

And then there's drop tanks, which allow even J6 in 100Td at TL-12 (because that's the TL for fuel-short-enabling Jump Capacitors and the Mod/6 computer). If you can't mix/match between LBB2 and 5 (neither book says you can't, just talks about fuel use), J6 might need 200Td minimum enabled by drop tanks.

These are clear violations of the blanket LBB5 Jn/TL rule, and not repudiated by LBB5.

That is, the exceptions are that J-4 is TL-10, J-5 is TL-12, and J-6 is TL-14, rather than being TLs 13, 14, and 15 respectively without drop tanks. With drop tanks, J-6 is available at TL-12. This is true even if you don't accept that ships don't need to carry more powerplant fuel than they'll use between access to external support.

The writers are silent about whether this was an intended outcome. They are not silent about whether the J4 in 100Td XBoat is allowed despite breaking the LBB2 design as written -- it is. If there's a TL-13 analog (less data banks etc), that's fine, it fits the TL limit rule, but doesn't explain why there were XBoats in mass production and use when the TL wasn't up to it.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It does if the computer is a Mod/2, not a 1/bis.

Why would it waste MCr 9 on a m/2, when a MCr 4 m/1bis is enough?

A Trader is supposed to at least pretend to be profitable?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

They can't be the LBB5'80 version until TL-15 because the 13Td of mail servers and comms gear of the LBB2'77 version won't fit.

Since Traders & Gunboats don't seem to care if the implied, but not specified, comms & data banks are 15 Dt (p9) or 12 Dt (p10), I can't really care if they only are 10 Dt in a LBB5 X-boat.

Changing the size of a component not covered by the rules hardly breaks the rules or the setting.


If you are really that worried about the exact size of the Comms & databanks, declare double occupancy and use half-staterooms (TCS), freeing up the needed space in the LBB5 X-boat.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And for me, the bottom line is what the '81 change to LBB2 was intended to rule out.

I have no idea what they intended, nor do I care to speculate.

These are clear violations of the blanket LBB5 Jn/TL rule, and not repudiated by LBB5.

They are not ruled out by LBB5, but by the setting.

No matter what standard drive the First Imperium used they could not produce more than J-2.

... but doesn't explain why there were XBoats in mass production and use when the TL wasn't up to it.

The X-boat network was designed and built around year 600, when Imperial max tech was TL-13. So, no X-boats were not produced before the Imperium were capable of mass producing TL-13 equipment.

 

[mike wightman]

Agent of the Imperium, which let's face it is a setting bible, has Imperial ships with jump 5 in the 400s, while jump 6 ships are mentioned in the 700s.

Building a semi-civilian xboat network to jump 4 standards when it could have been built to jump 5 shows the IN is not completely stupid.

 

[BRover]

Concerning drop tanks vs. direct siphoning of jump fuel:

I agree, what you end up with is an ATU at best.

Every merchant ship travelling the jump lanes would be able to buy jump fuel from a jump station/tender and wouldn't need jump fuel tankage - thus increasing cargo and passenger capacity by a large amount.
The only ships that would need to carry their own jump fuel would be ships that travel to systems not on the jump lane network.


I agree once again, there is no canonical evidence that jump stations/tenders can provide the fuel directly to a jump ship in the moments leading up to jump.

How about this interpretation: drawing the fuel from a tender--and even more from a handy station--could leave the tender or station dangerously close to the jumping ship, risking misjump. The much smaller mass of the empty drop tanks, plus the "unmentioned" jump tank equipment--small thrusters of some kind to move the tanks the necessary short distance--are what allow jump tanks, but not directly feeding the fuel from a tanker.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Why would it waste MCr 9 on a m/2, when a MCr 4 m/1bis is enough?

A Trader is supposed to at least pretend to be profitable?

Because when you're two hours out from Jump Limit and some pirate decides that they deserve the MCr20 of computers you're hauling more than you do, that Cr10,417/month is going to be the best investment you made.

(HG: +1 on everything*. LBB2: Not being a sitting duck for the turn before Jump, and being able to use the computer reprogramming phase.)

A Type A might be able to get by on a hold full of Cr1000/Td generic cargo. An A2 almost has to run spec cargo, so often has a lot more value to defend.

*by comparison.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Concerning drop tanks vs. direct siphoning of jump fuel:



How about this interpretation: drawing the fuel from a tender--and even more from a handy station--could leave the tender or station dangerously close to the jumping ship, risking misjump. The much smaller mass of the empty drop tanks, plus the "unmentioned" jump tank equipment--small thrusters of some kind to move the tanks the necessary short distance--are what allow jump tanks, but not directly feeding the fuel from a tanker.

Under the rules, it's diameter, not mass. Take the "diameter" of a 1KTd XBoat Tender as its length of 130m(?)*. 100 x 130m is 13000m. At 1G, it takes about 36 seconds for an XBoat Tender to get 13000m (its 100D limit) away from its starting point.


*eyeballing it from deckplans that may not be accurate here...