Ageing by Tech Level

[robject]

As far as I ever thought about it, what noble player characters are depends on what the player wants their noble character to be, and the rules can't bind that.

I like the specific land grants given during career resolution. It serves "as a spur to the imagination", to the player, but also to the referee. It also shapes the way we think about nobles, in an economic sense and a governing sense. So it enhances the strange sort of Space Feudalism we've got here in Traveller.

It places a monetary-plus-power value on SOC, without requiring that the character take up the mantle of planetary governor and forcing him into a life of planetary intrigue.

 

[whulorigan]

Precedent.
Parallels.
It's something that's explainable to people who can then better grasp the concept, even if it is an inexact match.

Yes, but the cited medieval examples are being used to illustrate something that is NOT a parallel to the system being discussed, and hence generating confusion concerning its structure and function. The system (in the OTU at least) is neither direct rulership nor feudal governance of worlds directly via Imperial Title. (Note that this is not to say that a given noble couldn't rule a world by also being the local planetary sovereign or other oligarch independent of his Imperial title, or be so invested in local politics and economics that he can steer things the way he wants them to go and is in fact the de facto ruler if not de jure).

An Imperial "Barony" (or "County" or "Duchy", etc.) is comprised of a relatively small number of Terrain Hexes (THexes) on one or more world surfaces, each THex being about 6500 sq-km in area. A Barony is 4 THexes of Imperial territory on one world (i.e. ~ 26,000 sq-km). A County is 32 THexes (~ 208,000 sq-km) of Imperial territory scattered on several worlds across a subsector and/or sector. The appointment of an Imperial noble as a Landed Noble representing a particular world before the Imperial Moot is an Imperial government posting granted to a particular noble who possesses an appropriate level of precedence. The appointment of a local Imperial Duke to represent the local Subsector Capital-world also carries the appointment and responsibility to govern the corresponding Subsector. But that is not his "Duchy". His Duchy is 128 THexes (~ 832,000 sq-km) scattered across various words in the local Subsector and Sector.

When people use medieval feudalism as a referent for illustrating the OTU Imperial system, they have missed the mark. That is why I specified up-thread the 18th-19th Century European nobility parallel, which is quite different than medieval feudalism.

 

[whulorigan]

As far as I ever thought about it, what noble player characters are depends on what the player wants their noble character to be, and the rules can't bind that.

I like the specific land grants given during career resolution. It serves "as a spur to the imagination", to the player, but also to the referee. It also shapes the way we think about nobles, in an economic sense and a governing sense. So it enhances the strange sort of Space Feudalism we've got here in Traveller.

It places a monetary-plus-power value on SOC, without requiring that the character take up the mantle of planetary governor and forcing him into a life of planetary intrigue.

Well said.

 

[robject]

Two of my players had noble characters. Nobility to them meant privilege without much responsibility. They owned starships with luxurious interiors. One owned a security robot. One had battledress. They "paid" for fuel at Imperial starports with what I assume was something akin to a family account. And they hated certain other noble families.

They still got to get into dangerous situations, and they got into pickles that characters get into. When you're at least one week away from civilization, you still have to solve your own problems.

 

[mike wightman]

The duke of Regina does not rule Regina...

 

[kilemall]

I think it is sooooooo deeeeply silly to get into Space Feudalism Sim. It just has to be justifiable for suspension of disbelief and serve the cause of ex-noble as Traveller.

Game first, then justification to support and avoid story/min max dead ends.

 

[Condottiere]

There is the Roman model, with latifundium.

Speaking of which, it seems Alderaan colonized worlds appear to have planetary royalty, but represent their planet as senators in the Republic.

And then there's the Las Vegas alternative, but with blackjack and hookers.

 

[aramis]

The duke of Regina does not rule Regina...

True. But he does, by virtue of that Ducal title, head the subsector government as both legislator and a member of the deliberative/executive branch.
He does rule, as an extra-territorial to the world, his fief as near-absolute dictator.
The Subsector moot doesn't make the laws, it assigns the investigators and suggests to the duke (or sometimes, count).

Essentially, Straybow's observations on European nobilitly are irrelevant; Traveller has consistent titles used in a manner quite akin to the Russian model, not the British, French, nor German models.
The Grand prefix, under the Russian system, is solely for descendants of former Tsars, with the partial exception of Finland, and were personal titles.

From the Petrine reform, most Russian nobles were unlanded honor titles. Provided one wasn't cashiered, certain ranks gave noble titles upon retirement, subject to veto by the Tsar. (Ranks 1 to 8, lower number is higher authority.

As with Traveller, Grand was a denotation of relationship to the Emperor.. Grandchild was Grand Duke, Great-grandchild was Grand Count, etc.

Only Archduke is wonky.

 

[mike wightman]

The world government of Regina is not headed by Norris, Norris is duke of the Regina subsector. There are very few worlds that are governed directly by Imperial authority, it is something that has always been lacking in the rules and the setting. As you head towards Core more and more worlds should be directly rules by the Imperium, but they are not.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The world government of Regina is not headed by Norris, Norris is duke of the Regina subsector. There are very few worlds that are governed directly by Imperial authority, it is something that has always been lacking in the rules and the setting. As you head towards Core more and more worlds should be directly rules by the Imperium, but they are not.

The way I've seen it is that Planetary Nobles are the Imperium's representatives to/for their worlds, not necessarily their rulers (though in some cases they are). They're responsible to their superiors for maximizing their world's value as an asset to the Imperium (however that may be defined). One assumes they have sufficient power -- direct or indirect, at least in theory -- to effect the desired outcome.

 

[mike wightman]

I have always, or at least for a very long time now, linked lesser nobles to starports.

While the duke 'rules' the subsector every world government is an independent entity bound by treaty to pay their protection money to the duke. The duke in turn guarantees peace, security and offworld trade.

To my mind the civilian starports are Imperial, so are likely to have nobles in charge. On many worlds these nobles may have been inhabitants elevated to Imperial nobility. They are responsible for making sure the duke gets his cut of the profits. Credits for the big guy must flow.

These local nobles will likely have property and land, and certainly will make enough money they can buy more.

I wonder if there are any rules as to who is allowed to buy shares in a megacorporation...

 

[Condottiere]

Assuming that the starport is the gateway (to the stars).

Or a deliberate bottleneck.

As far as I know, there is no restriction on the establishment of spaceports in the Imperium.

 

[aramis]

Assuming that the starport is the gateway (to the stars).

Or a deliberate bottleneck.

As far as I know, there is no restriction on the establishment of spaceports in the Imperium.

Both...

IMTU, the world's primary landed noble's fief is the starport... and it's profit margin, capped by restrictions on pricing, is a carefully chreographed dance encouraging ensuring the minimums (if you don't, you may still be a _title on world_, but you won't remain the title of world ), as well as using the rest for other supports. Non-imperial ports onworld are subject entirely to the local government, and the IN, SSN, IACOACC, and/or IISS can stop and search any vessel leaving one that's more than 10 diameters out. Given that the COACC is usually locals, it's the least likely to do so, but that can be a curious phenomenon on balkanized worlds... which state(s) get recognized as the Imperial Army members...

There may be other portions of fief as well, but the importance of the primary starport is that it's the only one guaranteed to be extraterritorial.
Noting that canon also gives us worlds with more than one starport (Earth has Phoenix in North America, AECO in Africa, LaGrange in Western Austrialia), IMTU, that means nobles having the others.
Which is why, IMOTUV, there's a scoutbase on Kodiak and thus a Baron Kodiak (/Earth/Sol/Solomani Rim.)

 

[whulorigan]

IMTU, the world's primary landed noble's fief is the starport... and it's profit margin, capped by restrictions on pricing, is a carefully chreographed dance encouraging ensuring the minimums (if you don't, you may still be a _title on world_, but you won't remain the title of world ), as well as using the rest for other supports.

For a world that has more than one Landed Noble, would you assign the Port to the oversight of the highest-rank Landed Noble on-world, or to the Landed Knight of the world specifically (since every populated Imperial World that is not under interdiction is assigned a Landed Knight who generally remians on-world)?

I would think the Landed Knight, but YMMV.

Multuple Imperial Ports on-world might have the least significant overseen by the Landed Knight, and more significant Ports overseen by Greater Landed Nobles, I suppose.

 

[Krikkitone]

Assuming that the starport is the gateway (to the stars).

Or a deliberate bottleneck.

As far as I know, there is no restriction on the establishment of spaceports in the Imperium.

There probably are limits on spaceports…if stuff from a location reaches more than 0.1 diameter off a world’s surface, the imperium is involved. (at least in traffic control)

 

[Condottiere]

In regard to appointed and/or titled Imperium nobility and starports, as I understand it, it's an Imperium agency run institution, and if it's to administer it, you'd have to continuously appoint new administrators and grant them the fief.

The "land" could be a fief, and the starport has a lease, and pays rent.

And/or the noble could have a seat on the board, or is it's ceremonial chairman.

Since occupation, the Terran starports might have been consolidated under one authority, or every starport outside the primary one got demoted to spaceport.

On the other hand, very important large population worlds might have multiple starports, such as sector capitols.

Are there multiple starport worlds in the Spinward Marches?

 

[Spinward Flow]

Are there multiple starport worlds in the Spinward Marches?

Risek / Rhylanor for starters ... if you're looking for an example.

There's also Porozolo / Rhylanor with this tidbit in the wiki page article:

All but one of Porozlo's A-quality starports are located in FT-controlled nations, with the most traffic at Nemso Down Starport. Nemso maintains the planet's sole orbital facility as well, Nemso Orbital. Among PO nations, only Almarac maintains an A-level starport facility at great expense to the populace. In order to uphold the virtues of the PO bloc, Almarac spares no expense to make its primary port a jewel among common stones. Though the facility is arguably the most modern of all Porozlo's starport facilities, traffic at Almarac Starport is somewhat sparse.
Free traders should be warned that legal cargo in one Porozlan nation is contraband in another. Be wary of the trade laws in each nation you intend to visit. More than one trader has had his ship impounded for carrying goods from an FT nation into a PO nation and vice versa.

So the answer to your question is ... YES ... you just need to dig a little deeper into the world details to find them, since that kind of information isn't going to be appearing in the UPP.

 

[whulorigan]

There's also Porozolo / Rhylanor with this tidbit in the wiki page article:

All but one of Porozlo's A-quality starports are located in FT-controlled nations, with the most traffic at Nemso Down Starport. Nemso maintains the planet's sole orbital facility as well, Nemso Orbital. Among PO nations, only Almarac maintains an A-level starport facility at great expense to the populace. In order to uphold the virtues of the PO bloc, Almarac spares no expense to make its primary port a jewel among common stones. Though the facility is arguably the most modern of all Porozlo's starport facilities, traffic at Almarac Starport is somewhat sparse.​

Free traders should be warned that legal cargo in one Porozlan nation is contraband in another. Be wary of the trade laws in each nation you intend to visit. More than one trader has had his ship impounded for carrying goods from an FT nation into a PO nation and vice versa. ​

So the answer to your question is ... YES ... you just need to dig a little deeper into the world details to find them, since that kind of information isn't going to be appearing in the UPP.

Be aware that the quote above from the Wiki is footnoted as coming from an Unpublished Fan-source (RICE Paper). It is not canon.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Be aware that the quote above from the Wiki is footnoted as coming from an Unpublished Fan-source (RICE Paper). It is not canon.

Quibbling over the provenance of materials is an exercise I'll leave to those parties interested in taking a stand on such matters.

Are there multiple starport worlds in the Spinward Marches?

The Spinward Marches is a big place with a lot of worlds "of all shapes and sizes" (so to speak).
The notion that there COULDN'T be multiple starports on worlds anywhere in the sector would seem to be the more farfetched one, I'm thinking.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Indeed, there must be multiple landing pads for many worlds - after all, airfields (or equivalent) with customs post is all that is needed. Assuming runway-like infrastructure, about 1 per 10-Million (10^7) seems to be needed with potentially supported being about 1 per 100,000.