BackworldTraveller
SOC-13
Why not? The alternatives are bleak!
Ageing by Tech Level
- Thread starter BackworldTraveller
- Start date
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I guess it depends on your memories. As for death, I do not fear it. As for aging, that is sort of meaningless when you are 100% disabled.
I don't fear death, either... but I'm in no hurry to get there, either. Both for the (religious) reasons.
Current average age at death in the US is closer to 4 score now...
Roughly 79 before COVID, and 77 during...
The US isn't the longest lived 1st world nation, either. (46th on life expectancy at birth, with 79 and change); peak is Hong Kong, at a hair shy of 85.3...
I suspect my grandchildren may see the number rise to about 85 in the US...
But I also expect the peak will remain about 120years until genetic tinkering on humans is legal and ethical.
Life Expectancy by Country and in the World (2024) - Worldometer
List of countries and dependencies in the world ranked by life expectancy at birth, both sexes, males and females. World Population Life Expectancy with historical chart
www.worldometers.info
Hairy Jim DeGriz
SOC-12
Were they on a quest to find Planet Fitness?
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Not at all. It isn't the names that I'm discussing, it is the size of a fiefdom and the number of ranks required to control interstellar domains. The point of a Medieval fiefdom was to put a knight in charge of enough land to support the cost of keeping the knight and his squire trained, armed, and mounted. Maybe a couple servants and some men at arms thrown in the mix. A Barony was also sized to include a reasonable number of knights, plus pay for a keep and garrison to protect the serfs.
If the domain of a Barony is only the starport and trade facilities then the tax base would be too small to build a defense fleet. If in control of a whole planet, just keeping a wary eye on the managers would be more than a full time job. Modest holdings accumulated over a few generations could be in the trillions. Even with a relatively small chunk of an established planet, a Barony would probably put one in the billionaire club.
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Perhaps such a system emerged in later narratives of OTU. Certainly not in CT77, which said,
A world, then, was basically parallel to a present-day country. The five basic noble ranks weren't as grandiose as OTU eventually made them.
Yes, that wording is unique to that 1st original CT'77 edition. The revised CT'81 edition and all editions forward used an interstellar interpretation. Just like many other things, such as J-Drive, M-Drive, and P-Plant/Fuel and J-Torps were also reconnected early on in CT'81 moving forward.
When CT'77 was written the OTU had not yet emerged (it was an entirely generic Sci-Fi ruleset). As it did emerge, the Imperium of the OTU needed to detail a nobility system at an extensive interstellar scale, and the meaning and implication of the titles was changed in CT'81 to reflect that.
The CT'77 verbiage does, however, form the basis for later Planetary (or Parochial) Nobility in the OTU, though it does not necessarily specify the earlier CT'77 titles names. Such names and terms (or even their existence) would be based on local planetary culture and politics, and would likely fall within the Soc 9-11 range on the re-scaled Soc values for Local Nobles, and Soc 12-13 for local world and most multi-world rulers.
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And the point that is being made is that the Imperium is not an analog of Medieval Fiefdoms. An Imperial Baron (or Imperial Marquis or Imperial Count) is not responsible for building a "defense fleet" like a Medieval Baron maintaining military retainers subinfeudinated on his lands, nor is he resposnsible for the governance of the world to which he is assigned (that is the purview of the local planetary govenment as described in the world's UWP).
Suppose the Imperium were instead a Federation with a constitutional-republican form of government. How would it govern itself? It would appoint administrators, bureaucrats, and functionaries at various levels of interstellar federal government to control its ministries and institutions, just like any modern government does for its own national ministries. The scope would be larger and require more levels, but since this Interstellar Federation is not directly ruling its worlds, but mostly governing its federal-level interplanetary commerce, and collecting tax revenues to support armed forces at a larger (federal) interstellar scale, it does not need to provide granular administrative oversight of local planetary affairs, budgets, economies, and armed forces (which are analogs to U.S. States, U.S. State Militias and/or U.S. State National Guard forces). Interstellar government (including Federal interstellar trade regulators and Federal military organization beginning at the Subsector level as Interstellar Military Active and Reserve Forces) does not need functionaries that scale down to the sub-planetary level.
The Imperium functions the same way, it is just that its higher-level interstellar "administrators and bureaucrats" are a subset of individuals chosen exclusively from an "old-boys" network of individuals and/or families who have otherwise been granted Noble titles and land grants for self-support and upkeep by a current or prior Emperor as a sinecure.
- An Imperially-assigned Landed Knight is an Imperial ambassador to the world that represents the Imperium and its interests to the local government and people, and advises accordingly. His fief is merely provided for prestige and his own personal upkeep thru a portion of local Imperial tax-revenue.
- An Imperially-assigned Landed Noble is a representative for the world to the other worlds of the Imperium (thru their own Landed Nobles) at the local Subsector Moot at the Subsector Duke's court, and to the Imperium as a whole at the Imperial Moot on Capital (either personally or by proxy thru a chosen representative).
- Imperial "Gentlebeings" or "Gentlesophonts" (Soc=10) would be the general run-of-the-mill operatives of the various Imperial Ministries and Bureaucracies who operate at the Interplanetary level.
- An Imperial Ceremonial Knight or Ceremonial Noble is an Imperial administrator overseeing some aspect of the Imperial Subsector governing structure at some level as a Director, Deputy-director, or lower level departmental-supervisor of the various Imperial Ministries and Bureaucracies.
The Medieval Fiefdom is a straw-man argument. The Imperium is not an analog of Medieval Feudalism, so showing how the OTU as otherwise described could not work as a network of Medieval Fiefdoms is simply disproving a case that nobody else is making.
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If I were re-designing the Social Standing stat and its setting-implications from scratch, I would probably use a mediating position between the two interpretations. I would use the CT'77 version of local nobility largely as described, but overlap it with Imperial Nobility beginning at Soc=13 ("Imperial Knight"). Soc=14 would be "Imperial Baronet", and Soc=15 would be "Imperial Baron".
That would also mean that all Imperial Titles would have to be earned either thru elevation during CharGen or actual game-play.
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Sure. But since those corporations are notionally not a part of the Imperial governing structure, those top VPs (or their ancestors historically) et al, would likely have been granted Imperial recognition thru appropriate minimum commensurate titles classified under the category of "Honor Noble" as noted above.
There are already examples in the OTU.
- All of the four Vilani Megacorporations (Makhidkarun, Naasirka, Sharurshid, and Zirunkaarish) are held and/or administered by long standing high-noble families.
- Tukera Lines is associated with the family of Count Blaine Trulla Tukera.
- The Ling family is associated with Ling Standard Products.
Such families likely have their fingers and tendrils intertwined throughout Imperial politics.
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
A fiefdom should be profitable enough to cover expenses and expected lifestyle of the entitled aristocrat.
And any military obligations.
And any military obligations.
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Not an analog, no. But the point of scale remains. The way it is presented is one Barony per planet, where there should be many, and someone with sway over a whole planet (even if it is just interstellar trade and relations to the greater polity) should be much higher in rank.
A Federation, by definition, means an agreement between parties or a binding of parties. They act together for the purposes of the Federation, but retain their own authority or autonomy. You are describing something of a different nature (I won't veer off into current events). But such a government would have no authority to appoint nobles to control anything. Member polities would send representatives to the Federal, not the other way around.
The analog to the antebellum era and the ACW is apt. The Federal Army was not a permanent body, but more a skeleton crew and an officer training corps. States were responsible for raising military units which would be submitted to the Federal Army when called up. While direct warfare with a foreign state would call on Federal assets to venture outside the borders, local defense against uprisings and barbarians should be handled by militia. Instead, States abdicated the expense of maintaining a decent strength of militia. When trouble came they called on the Federal Army to intervene, going all the way back to the Whiskey Rebellion. An exception to this would be Texas using Rangers and militia to fight against Mexican cattle gangs and the like.
In a milieu wherein the nearest Naval force might be weeks away under average circumstances and months away if engaged in some defense deemed more important, it would be up to the local government(s) to maintain local defense at a strength sufficient to repel any minor incursions or raids.
Except if the Imperium doesn't rule locally, how does it have authority to grant fiefdoms locally? You can only grant from what you rule or possess. How does an externally appointed noble, with no organic connection to the local governance/populace, represent that government or populace in a higher polity?
In the USA, the Federal government can't appoint anybody at the state level. There are Federal courts, with Federal judges seated, but only to handle Federal issues. A Territory has Federal appointees for governance and law enforcement, but not a constituent State. What does the Imperium administer that it appoints administrators and happens to have control over local lands to hand out as fiefdoms for those appointed?
How many Bureaus does this Imperium-that-doesn't-rule need? A Department of Defense equivalent, a Bureau of Investigation equivalent, an Intelligence Agency, and a State Department equivalent. The Imps wouldn't do any equivalent to domestic bureaus (education, health, housing, transportation, etc). Yes, some sort of Interplanetary Trade oversight to handle disputes between or involving member world interactions.
I would argue that you don't actually want nobles entrenched into any of these Bureaus. That would be inviting all kinds of trouble, lucky to last a whole century without a coup of some sort. State would be small in the OTU. There are only half a dozen outside polities significant enough to require formal external relations. Yes, there would probably be some sinecures in Trade.
I didn't argue that the Imperium was Feudal. I was only looking at the size of noble holdings and what benefit the Imp gets from having appointed offices of that sort.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Rule by exception: direct intervention only occurs if the situation appears to be beyond the control of local authorities.
And going by starports, the Imperium does impose upon localities.
And going by starports, the Imperium does impose upon localities.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Compared to the scale of an entire world surface, that imposition is something of a "light touch" as far as land area is concerned (think way less than 1% of total world land area). In terms of world economy, that footprint can be way higher, but in pure land acreage terms it's going to be relatively small (some tens/hundreds of square kilometers out of an entire world).
Additionally, the "starport zone" essentially functions on a sort of "diplomatic extraterritoriality" basis, much like an embassy from a foreign state in terms of legal systems. This places the onus of obligation towards Law & Order on the starport authorities to provide the necessary security (in both directions) within the "starport zone" to prevent smuggling/etc. from becoming entrenched.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
No migration without representation.
Krikkitone
SOC-12
The Imperium has authority over interworld Commerce… and that can work it’s tentacles into just about anything “local”. The Imperium does appear to be fairly hands off, but they don’t have to always be hands off. The Imperial noble for a high pop world is not necessarily the highest Social standing (actual rulers /elite of the world would probably have higher Soc as long as they are close to home)
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
"Planetary" nobility is Social: A.
Imperial "Interplanetary" nobility is Social: B+.
Of course, it's perfectly possible for "courtesy noble" ranks of B+ to be earned for various reasons ...
Looking at Boughene/Regina (SM 1904), Pop 5, the Imperial representative is a Knight (Soc B).
The world/station's governing Executive Council members (the top eschelon of the Self-perpetuating Oligarchy) top out at Soc A, regardless of their formal governmental titles.
However, it's also the corporate headquarters for the megacorporation General Products. It's entirely possible that some of GP's high-level executives are Soc C or possibly higher, at least in effect if not formal title, due to the megacorporation's scale and economic power. Nonetheless, if they're landed nobility their fiefs are not on Boughene, nor do they entitle Boughene itself to a vote in the Moot.
Such Noble executives would not be in the direct line of authority over the planetary Knight (which passes through the Count of Menorb).
I'd expect that worlds whose ranking noble is Soc C or higher could have planetary-government leaders with what amounts to Soc B (but without the Imperial title, unless explicitly granted).
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
If you look at it from the eighteenth or nineteenth perspective, an Imperial Knight is likely the equivalent of the justice of the peace, keeping an eye (and a lid) on the local situation.
You can have any number of higher ranked aristocrats living in the area, but they don't have imperium.
You can have any number of higher ranked aristocrats living in the area, but they don't have imperium.
