All things Zhodani

[kilemall]

Sounds more like Demolition from The Demolished Man.

 

[GypsyComet]

Zhodani don't exile people, as they would probably see it as producing unnecessary suffereing

Since the Zhodani don't appear to be in the habit of removing the misfit genes from the gene pool so much as making them fit regardless, I suspect they actually do exile a few, but only the Tavrchedl' see it as exile. Those misfit few who do get ejected are, I think, the ones who simply cannot fit in. No position they qualify for within the Consulate is suited to their temperament. Their fates are split from those the Zhodani simply brain burn or kill by aptitudes, patriotism, and other criteria that divides the unmanageable psycho- and socio-paths from those who simply do not fit. Some may be put on ice to await the next Core Expedition, while others are transited to a client state or other neighbor that they can fit into. A few are designated as "Suicide Squad" members, sent into Imperial, Vargr, or rimward space to accomplish something the Consulate needs done. Even if they survive, the Consulate expects to never see them again. Whether used as legal messengers deep into liar space or as deniable and expendable black ops, their anonymity makes them useful to the Consulate. If one walks into a Consulate embassy twenty years later and wants to go home, having now seen the universe and feeling able to finally fit in, he will still serve the Consulate through his memories.

 

[whulorigan]

Since the Zhodani don't appear to be in the habit of removing the misfit genes from the gene pool so much as making them fit regardless, I suspect they actually do exile a few, but only the Tavrchedl' see it as exile. Those misfit few who do get ejected are, I think, the ones who simply cannot fit in. No position they qualify for within the Consulate is suited to their temperament. Their fates are split from those the Zhodani simply brain burn or kill by aptitudes, patriotism, and other criteria that divides the unmanageable psycho- and socio-paths from those who simply do not fit. Some may be put on ice to await the next Core Expedition, while others are transited to a client state or other neighbor that they can fit into. A few are designated as "Suicide Squad" members, sent into Imperial, Vargr, or rimward space to accomplish something the Consulate needs done. Even if they survive, the Consulate expects to never see them again. Whether used as legal messengers deep into liar space or as deniable and expendable black ops, their anonymity makes them useful to the Consulate. If one walks into a Consulate embassy twenty years later and wants to go home, having now seen the universe and feeling able to finally fit in, he will still serve the Consulate through his memories.

Perhaps that is the reason for the existence of the Driantia Steblenzhtia ("Vanguard Consulate" / Colonnade Administrative District) in the Vanguard Reaches.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

I'm with Aramis here. Zhodani don't exile people, as they would probably see it as producing unnecessary suffereing, and so as a mental illness itself. They don't even lock people in jails, for the same reasons.

Hi McPerth,

*** How do dissident Zhodani get out? ***

I see the situation as potentially analogous to the Iron Curtain and Eastern Germany, where dissidents were doing everything they could do to escape: religious folks, political protestors, etc.

I always figured those nearby client states were where they went.

*** Has this theme been explored by others? ***

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Condottiere]

Escape to where and with what?

Stowing away with psionic lifescans has to be rather difficult, as is building your own unlicensed starship.

 

[McPerth]

Hi McPerth,

*** How do dissident Zhodani get out? ***

I guess they don't try to get out. They either try to change things from inside (after all, I see as one of the roles of the Taverchedle' is to scan peoples wishes to inform the government of what needs to be changed) or look for help (probably to the same Taverchedle'.

I see the situation as potentially analogous to the Iron Curtain and Eastern Germany, where dissidents were doing everything they could do to escape. religious folks, political protestors, etc.

I always figured those nearby client states were where they went.

*** Has this theme been explored by others? ***

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

I disagree in your seeing of the Zhodani. They don't feel oppressed, and they can freely talk about what they think must be changed (at least to a limit). If they feel unhappy, they probably look for help (as said above).

And they don't see Imperial space (or probably any other) as a place to flee to, being full of liars and untrustworthy people that always try to take advantage on each other. And any Imperial films/serials that can reach them will be seen by them as a proof of this.

According the article Zhodani Pjilosophies (JTAS 23, probably biased, of course, as it's written by a Zhodani diplomat), they may intellectually understand the concept of lie, but they are unable to understand why should one. I doubt they can understand the concept of cruelty except as a mental disease.

Imagine their horror at seeing any current intrigue filem or serial (e.g. CSI), where people harms other people willingly, lie without remorse to deffend themselves, etc... This would be seen by them as full madness and the worst side of humanity, and only reinforce their belief they live in the best of societies, where one can trust people one finds, instead of being afraid of them.

 

[Condottiere]

Deception, otherwise they'd be not that great at fighting wars.

 

[Blue Ghost]

If they can't fix you, they're unlikely to trust you.

They are not "evil" - at least not in the common gamerdome meaning of "acts for own interests at the expense of others"... They are axiomatically Lawful Good. Acts for the betterment of society, uses laws to do so, and will not tolerate evil to exist; tell the truth all the time, will give their word if needed, and will strive to live up to it with all their being. They are freaking old-school D&D Paladins.

The biggest difference (and you're getting a pass on the political references THIS TIME ONLY) is that the Soviets did what they did to come to power, and did not hold their leadership to the same standards, plus couldn't effectively edit people's desires and memories. And "Uncle Joseph" was a power-mad psychotic who really was out to rule the world, wielded the government to further his personal agendas (ask me about that in the pit; asking here would violate the no religion rule), and killed and blackmailed to get where he was (Both Dmytryshyn and Avrich have written about this).

The Zho's can edit memories and desires. It can be done using the rules as written in CT and MT. THey also don't exempt their leaders from the system. They don't use it for personal gain, only for the betterment of society. (And any noble trying to use it for personal gain would likely get read, accused before the next one up, and wind up reeducated.)

Well, the only reason I brought up a real world example was because it struck me that perhaps that whoever wrote the Zhodani was attempting to create a "space faring Russia" of somekind, post royals. They just seemed to compliment one another in terms how they handle people, not so much in socio-ideology and how it relates to us today.

The Zho version of rehab, to me, is to try psionics, and if they don't work, then throw him to the wolves.

Why not a relocation planet for incorrigibles? Throw them on some game preserve; water, wood, animals ... have fun eeking out a stone age like existence mister "I don't like the rules..."

Or, maybe offer to ship him to Vargr or Imperial space. Give him a one way ticket, maybe 1000 ImCr. standard, and off he goes.

But the Zhos don't do either of those things.

 

[mike wightman]

Well, the only reason I brought up a real world example was because it struck me that perhaps that whoever wrote the Zhodani was attempting to create a "space faring Russia" of somekind, post royals. They just seemed to compliment one another in terms how they handle people, not so much in socio-ideology and how it relates to us today.

I disagree, I never viewed the Zho in this way, the Solomani always seemed to be a better fit.

The Zho version of rehab, to me, is to try psionics, and if they don't work, then throw him to the wolves.

There is no evidence to back this up is there?

Why not a relocation planet for incorrigibles? Throw them on some game preserve; water, wood, animals ... have fun eeking out a stone age like existence mister "I don't like the rules..."

Because the Zho place a much higher value on human life than the Imperium and so treating and re-integration is the option.

Or, maybe offer to ship him to Vargr or Imperial space. Give him a one way ticket, maybe 1000 ImCr. standard, and off he goes.

But the Zhos don't do either of those things.

They don't need to.

How many Zhodani civil wars have there been?

 

[flykiller]

Because the Zho place a much higher value on human life than the Imperium

yeah, like a farmer places a much higher value on cattle life than the cattle themselves do. pretty soon he's cutting off their horns and putting them in stand stalls so they can't hurt each other, and giving them lots of anti-biotics so they stay healthy, and feeding them lots and lots of food so they get nice and fat ....

 

[McPerth]

The Zho version of rehab, to me, is to try psionics, and if they don't work, then throw him to the wolves.

As they see it, they try to heal those suffering, and, if not posible, they end their suffering and eliminate the risk for the society.

I disagree, I never viewed the Zho in this way, the Solomani always seemed to be a better fit.

I guess he Zhodani were initially to be the bad guys, but were latter replaced in this role by the Solomani, with their supremacist policies. Reasons for this change escape me...

Because the Zho place a much higher value on human life than the Imperium and so treating and re-integration is the option.

That's also the reason for them to use warbots. Warbots are expendable, soldiers aren't, if that can be avoided.

 

[flykiller]

I guess he Zhodani were initially to be the bad guys, but were latter replaced in this role by the Solomani, with their supremacist policies. Reasons for this change escape me...

because anti-supremacism is popular, and it's easy to assert the solomani are not superior. saying the same thing about the zhodani nobles, however, rings hollow.

That's also the reason for them to use warbots. Warbots are expendable, soldiers aren't, if that can be avoided.

it's much easier to believe the zhodani simply don't distinguish well between proles and bots. why should they?

 

[McPerth]

it's much easier to believe the zhodani simply don't distinguish well between proles and bots. why should they?

They distinguish them quite well, and they care for the proles wellfare.

See that the bots are seen as expendable for them, while troops not.

And the most used (and most risked) troops are probably the Consular Guard comandos, that are not precisely proles....

 

[Condottiere]

Racism is rather considered bad, while casteism with limited social mobility is alright; mind control does tend to push the pendulum back to evil.

Lawful neutral, at best.

 

[flykiller]

They distinguish them quite well, and they care for the proles wellfare.

yeah, and the farmer waters his corn. such a nice man.

See that the bots are seen as expendable for them, while troops not.

yeah, that's the advertising.

... most risked ... troops are probably the Consular Guard comandos, that are not precisely proles....

used when they need guaranteed results, same as any core citizen troops.

mind control does tend to push the pendulum back to evil.

'pends on who's doing the controlling. like always.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Hi McPerth,

I guess they don't try to get out. They either try to change things from inside (after all, I see as one of the roles of the Taverchedle' is to scan peoples wishes to inform the government of what needs to be changed) or look for help (probably to the same Taverchedle'.

One of the most solidly hard-wired aspects of the human mind is that we all are apt to think the "other" as far less than perfect. Any time you have at least two people, they'll disagree and likely to a very significant degree.

If the Zhodani managed to eliminate that aspect of Humaniti, they'd probably stop being human altogether.

No matter how well the mind control and reading works, someone will figure out how to hide within the system, and secretly dissent. That's human nature.

The Zhodani still have political parties and politics is usually a great wedge in-between folks.

I disagree in your seeing of the Zhodani. They don't feel oppressed, and they can freely talk about what they think must be changed (at least to a limit). If they feel unhappy, they probably look for help (as said above).

Please see above. Maybe no proles feel oppressed, but I would think it quite likely that some intendants and nobles feel like they unfairly got the short end of the stick.

Increasingly this thread is reminding me of late 19th and early 20th century Russian literature in which dissidents hide and try to avoid the Czar or his successors.

And they don't see Imperial space (or probably any other) as a place to flee to, being full of liars and untrustworthy people that always try to take advantage on each other. And any Imperial films/serials that can reach them will be seen by them as a proof of this.

Most of the Zho client states are in directions of open space rather than in the direction of the 3i.

According the article Zhodani Pjilosophies (JTAS 23, probably biased, of course, as it's written by a Zhodani diplomat), they may intellectually understand the concept of lie, but they are unable to understand why should one. I doubt they can understand the concept of cruelty except as a mental disease.

Likely.

Imagine their horror at seeing any current intrigue film or serial (e.g. CSI), where people harm other people willingly, lie without remorse to deffend themselves, etc... This would be seen by them as full madness and the worst side of humanity, and only reinforce their belief they live in the best of societies, where one can trust people one finds, instead of being afraid of them.

I agree, and that's an entertaining scenario, but surely many Zhodani are hardened to the ways of violence. I think of them more like Victorian gentleman-adventurers than modern action heroes. Many Zodani may be naïve to hardened Solomani or Imperial ways, but those at the cutting edge have already seen it.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[mike wightman]

it's much easier to believe the zhodani simply don't distinguish well between proles and bots. why should they?

Because proles can produce intendents - psionics is non-genetic...

 

[McPerth]

One of the most solidly hard-wired aspects of the human mind is that we all are apt to think the "other" as far less than perfect. Any time you have at least two people, they'll disagree and likely to a very significant degree.

If the Zhodani managed to eliminate that aspect of Humaniti, they'd probably stop being human altogether.

No matter how well the mind control and reading works, someone will figure out how to hide within the system, and secretly dissent. That's human nature.

The Zhodani still have political parties and politics is usually a great wedge in-between folks.

Sure there are people who disagrees in the Zhodani society, and I guess they are (at least) heard.

And sure there are also political parties (or their equivalence), and some low level infighting in the government organs, but they are mostlu concerned on the wellfare of society over their own interests (while not forgeting them), as this is how they have been raised.

I expect Zhodani to be more like a game of AH Republic of Rome (without all dirty tricks there, but in what the first goal is to keep Rome intact) than WEG Junta (were the goal is to end with more moey in your Suiss bank than the other players).

Please see above. Maybe no proles feel oppressed, but I would think it quite likely that some intendants and nobles feel like they unfairly got the short end of the stick.

Increasingly this thread is reminding me of late 19th and early 20th century Russian literature in which dissidents hide and try to avoid the Czar or his successors.

If they feel they're undervalued, I guess their attitude would be to work harder to make evident they deserve more responsability.

Most of the Zho client states are in directions of open space rather than in the direction of the 3i.

Among other reasons because in the direction of the 3I there's no place for them, both being so closer and with a DMZ between them (more or less like on the Vargr Expaneses direction).

I agree, and that's an entertaining scenario, but surely many Zhodani are hardened to the ways of violence. I think of them more like Victorian gentleman-adventurers than modern action heroes. Many Zodani may be naïve to hardened Solomani or Imperial ways, but those at the cutting edge have already seen it.

Considering the basic honestity of the Zhodani and their quite secure society, I guess they see violence (at least against other citizens) as a sign of mental disorder (or at least stress), and I don't expect them to be hardened in those ways. As violent crime is so rare, why should they?

I even believe that in such a society, their recruiting pool for armed forces would be quite lower than pur standards, as they must heavily indoctrinate their soldiers to do what they have always been told it's a sign of disorder. Of course, both psionics and their "knowledge" they're fighting to preserve their honest society from a "horde of untrustworty liars" help in this...

 

[Blue Ghost]

I disagree, I never viewed the Zho in this way, the Solomani always seemed to be a better fit.

You know, given how and what SolSec is supposed to be, and how all of Soli society operates, then yeah, sure, I agree on that point. But I think the Zhos have no less a similar power structure, they just don't rely on "the proletariat" to support Zho society. They just screw with your mind.

There is no evidence to back this up is there?

Well, it's per Aramis's explanation a few posts back.

Because the Zho place a much higher value on human life than the Imperium and so treating and re-integration is the option.

Eh, that's not how I see it. And to be brutally honest, that's not my personal view on life in general, so in a gaming a real world sense I disagree with it. Life isn't sacred. Freedom is.

How many Zhodani civil wars have there been?

What, in this neighborhood?

I need to crack the Zho AM at some point. I seem to recall reading about discontent somewhere. Or maybe that was just my reaction to it.

 

[Murph]

I don't recall any discontent, it might be in one of the stupid TNE books where everything dies and falls apart.