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All Warships Should Have Drop Tanks

Of course empty hex jumps are canon - first mention is actually A3 Twilight's peak - during the 3rd Imperium OTU...

BUT

it is also canonical that during the ISW through to DN historical era such empty hex jumps were not possible for Vilani or Solomani or Aslan ships.

And as has already been pointed out, it is also mentioned in Dark Nebula that the ability to perform jumps into deep space was invented/discovered during the time where that is set. And the Interstellar Wars took place before the events covered by Dark Nebula.

There are severe problems with the no-deep-space-jumps-back-when-the-Vilani-first-expanded bit, but canonictiy and the ability to perform deep space jumps in the Classic Era are not among them.


Hans
 
No, I was trying to enlarge on your point. Supporting what you said. Addressing the same people you were addressing, not replying to you.


Hans

Further enlarging upon what was said - the Humans didn't have jump 2, yet were able to cross through "empty" hexes earlier on.

Now, to put things in perspective? If the techniques used by the Terrans permitted jumping into non-stellar hexes that early on, such techniques would have been possible through out time from that point onwards. I find it difficult to believe that such techniques were not discovered by the Villani as well.

That's just me though ;)
 
Maybe those empty jumps were quite unreliable, or just difficult, and may be done by single ships, but not by a fleet as a whole, less so when combat may be expected.

If so, exploratioin might be done jumpint to empty hexes, and sporadic contact maintained, but fleet operations couldn't.

PS: that's not at all canon, just one idea that crossed my head.
 
There was quite an involved and many paged discussion about this on the SJGs forum not so long ago.

Can't remember what this site's policy is these days for linking to other discussion forums - but if you google SJG forums look for the Ziru Sirka thread from about 2 months back.

Basically there is a good chance that empty hex jumps require either a known large mass in the "empty hex" to aim for or the calculations required for an empty hex jump are so risky that they are not worth the option.
Months of calculation time may reduce the risk but that's difficult to do on the fly.
 
I wouldn't think that warships would have *drop* tanks, but they might have *internal collapsible* fuel tanks for reuse.
 
The board games Imperium (the Interstellar Wars era itself) and Dark Nebula (Terrans vs Aslan) are both considered canon for the OTU and both describe historical periods during which empty hex jumps were not possible.


In the board game FFW ships expend all their jump fuel regardless of the distance they jump. Thus, according to the canonical FFW board game, jump fuel regulators do not exist until after the Fifth Frontier War.

Does what I wrote above sounds in any way plausible to you?

Or does what I wrote suggest that the many design feature of Traveller's many board games have different levels of canonicity?

In order to preserve this canon history the designers at SJG had to preclude empty hex jumps.

I was part of the play test and, no, they didn't.

The jump lines found in Imperium and Dark Nebula were roped in as an excuse to explain away certain aspects of canonical history. There was no pressing concern about maintaining anything from either game, but there was a desire to maintain information from Rim of Fire. If the games actually were important, the "Imperium" would have been reduced to "seventy stars centered on Capella" and tankers would be able to refine fuel directly from stellar atmospheres because both statements are part of the Imperium board game.

The prohibition on empty hex jumps has it's origins in the canonical conduct of the various wars; specifically the astrography of the region around Sol and the question of why the Ziru Sirka had seemingly not directly attacked Earth across the "Sirius Gap". However, the part of the question dealing with Sirius attack had only become prominent with the release of SJG's Rim of Fire.

GDW's own description of the wars had never mentioned such an attack, but those descriptions mentioned little in the way of actual attacks and battles. GDW's work on the wars was both deliberately and artfully vague so the actions in several wars across hundreds of years had been laid out in just a few paragraphs scattered about in publications like Argon Gambit and AM:Solomani.

SJG's own Rim of Fire greatly expanded on the descriptions of the wars. Sadly, RoF's author chose to use the Imperium map rather than the normal Traveller map of the same region when creating his far more detailed history. That was probably due to time constraints, he was writing a sourcebook for an entire sector after all and he couldn't afford the time to play out a dozen or so TCS/FFW-lite map exercises to craft a history which would still include the few GDW facts. The result of his time constraints and choices however was that the ISWauthors now had to explain detailed canonical information which SJG alone had created along with the far limited canonical information from GDW.

The ISW authors also were under great time restraints and other pressures. They were writing a setting which was meant to be as self-contained as possible, a setting using rules from a RPG system, GURPS 4e, which wasn't even fully released yet, a setting which needed it's own space combat and trading rules, and a setting plunked smack dab into a period of Traveller history which still had huge "holes' in it. They had to pick and choose where to expend their efforts.

Considering what they had to do and what they accomplished, the ISW authors succeeded fantastically. What they created wasn't perfect however.

And the ISW authors did not fail. Instead, the ISW playtesters failed the ISW authors.

I was part of the playtest and, when jump lines were brought up, quickly pointed out the troubling canonical implications of their use. Sadly, the thread discussing jump lines and, by extension the Sirius Gap question, became bogged down in the usual nonsense by the usual suspects regarding mass requirements for jump exits. Jump masking and jump shadows got roped in too and before long the thread was an unmanageable mess. Every time a new thread meant to discuss jump lines was begun, the same old assclowns shitted it up with the same old arguments.

(FWIW, I suggested a "soft' explanation for the Siruis Gap question relying on an inability to perform "squadron synch" jumps in and/or out of empty hexes. This soft explanation would keep fleets from crossing the Sirius Gap, this preserving the RoF information, while not preventing PCs from crossing the same.)

I have no doubt that the ISW authors at first skimmed the threads in question, only to correctly dismiss the first thread and the follow-ups as a waste of their very limited time. They roped in Imperium to solve what was to them a minor problem and went on to more pressing matters.

In the end, ISW messed up with it's adherence to jump lines. An adherence which had more to do with maintaining continuity with RoF, questions about the Siruis Gap, and failure by the playtesters than anything else.

In fact it is in the technology development rules of the Dark Nebula game that empty hex jumps become a possibility.

That's an optional rule. Dark Nebula also has it's map layout change with every playing. If everything about Traveller wargames is canonical, the stars themselves routinely shift about in the Dark Nebula Sector. There's an honest-to-ghu nebula on the DN map also. Care to point out that nebula on the Dark Nebula Sector map?

It's in the wargame so it simply must be there, right? ;)
 
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Further enlarging upon what was said - the Humans didn't have jump 2, yet were able to cross through "empty" hexes earlier on.


Not just humans either.

Every Major Race started with jump1 and every Major Race routinely crossed +1 parsec gaps. The Vilani explored the region which would become the Ziru Sirka with jump1 drives crossing hundreds of gaps as they went. The Zhodani, Vargr, K'Kree, and Hivers all did the same thing in their regions of space.

If the ISW explanation is to be accepted there must be a brown dwarf or other dark mass in EVERY SINGLE GAP ACROSS CHARTERED SPACE AND ALONG THE CORE ROUTE. Every single gap across Chartered Space except for one, that is. :rolleyes:

There are brown dwarfs and other dark masses everywhere every Major Race needed them to be. Brown dwarfs and dark masses which were relatively trivial to spot and use. Brown dwarfs and dark masses which everywhere anyone needed them to be EXCEPT BETWEEN SIRIUS AND SOL. Everywhere in Chartered Space except for one hex near Sol.

Pull my other leg, it's labeled "special pleading"... ;)
 
If the ISW explanation is to be accepted there must be a brown dwarf or other dark mass in EVERY SINGLE GAP ACROSS CHARTERED SPACE AND ALONG THE CORE ROUTE. Every single gap across Chartered Space except for one, that is. :rolleyes:

Hmmmm. I'm really trying to remember and I can't. I remember reading *somewhere* that the stars listed on the Traveller maps were the *important* stars where people lived, but that some of the other hexes had stars in them that were useless.

This may have been for a different game or from a non-canon source, but if true would explain how gaps could be crossed so easily.
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Jay
 
Hmmmm. I'm really trying to remember and I can't. I remember reading *somewhere* that the stars listed on the Traveller maps were the *important* stars where people lived, but that some of the other hexes had stars in them that were useless.


It's "fanon". Folks have been trying to "explain" Traveller's maps and their 2D nature since the game came out. The "Subway Map" suggestion, that the maps only show where ship's stop, is one such explanation. (Of course, the "Subway Map" explanation fails to explain places like Red Zoned Nirton X-600000 in District 268.)

This may have been for a different game or from a non-canon source, but if true would explain how gaps could be crossed so easily.

Yes, thanks to brown dwarfs and dark objects not shown on the map the thousands of gaps were crossly easily as all the Majors invented jump drive and explored their own regions. Everywhere anyone ever needed them to be across the whole of Chartered Space, brown dwarfs and dark object were there except between Sirius and Sol.

Yeah, right... :rolleyes:
 
Hmmmm. I'm really trying to remember and I can't. I remember reading *somewhere* that the stars listed on the Traveller maps were the *important* stars where people lived, but that some of the other hexes had stars in them that were useless.

This may have been for a different game or from a non-canon source, but if true would explain how gaps could be crossed so easily.
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Jay

What we have here (and I will refrain from cool hand luke quotes!), is a need to fix something that shouldn't have been "broken" in the first place. Either jumps into empty space do occur, or they don't. Either we need stellar masses to aim for, or we don't. Either we need a given mass to precipitate out of jump space, or we don't. None of this ever cropped up in a Classic era Traveller article, and while I can't say for certain, I'm pretty certain that we never discussed anything like this in 1979 or 1980 when I played Traveller back at UB (University of Buffalo). I can be pretty certain too, that none of this ever reared its ugly head throughout any of the other Traveller incarnations. As Whipsnade has pointed out, much of the issues that have arisen, have done so as a result of retconning things and discovering that those retcons have leaks. And like the poor little dutchboy who attempts to plug one leak in the dike, another springs up, and yet another until the poor boy has all ten of his fingers plugging ten holes and he's seeing that the water level is still rising from leaks he's not able to reach.

If TL X ships (and you can pick what ever tech level you want to pick for the value of X) require some sort of mass to target when exiting jump space - then at what tech level (X+1 perhaps?) do we no longer need a mass to aim for - and why? Was it a mathematical issue that required someone to invent a fuller theory of jump space? If so, why wasn't it mentioned in the earlier incarnations of Traveller? Why did it take a SJGames product to introduce that particular wrinkle in the game?

Also? why weren't the maps drawn from Imperium when RIM OF FIRE first came out? If IMPERIUM the board game was supposed to be canon, then the stars should have been canon as well.

Then, as if that weren't enough? When dealing with probabilities - ie, using dice, it isn't all too hard to determine what the odds were of a given warship being able to disable or destroy another ship in the game of IMPERIUM. Consequently, one should be able to approximate those same probabilities when using HIGH GUARD (if my memory serves me right, High Guard was published AFTER the board game, not prior to). So, if IMPERIUM were supposed to be all that much of a source of canon information, it seems rather sad that RIM OF FIRE and HIGH GUARD both failed to use it. :(
 
One thing I want to emphasize here before I forget...

I really don't have an issue with people using any given incarnation of Traveller with all of the "unique" aspects that came with them. Traveller the New Era never really caught my fancy, although some people thought it was the neatest thing since sliced bread. I don't have a problem with that. Some people rather liked the Fire, Fusion, and Steel sourcebook (truth be told, I thought it was VERY neat myself!) but, I just couldn't get my heart into the game universe where Skynet and Berserkers joined forces and mankind was trying to survive the greatest dark age ever.

T4, while intersting, had some of its own issues that I didn't like overall, the least of which was the oddity with dice. I rather liked the POCKET EMPIRES supplement, and wished that it could be used to describe a lot of the Third Imperium and perhaps even attempt to determine what the military expenditures would be like based on cultural decisions made by various governments and even the Third Imperial government that acts like an ubergovernment above all planetary governments.

In the end? I guess it doesn't much matter - all that matters is that a GM can use the rules subset that he wants to use, and that the players have FUN playing it. As a consequence? My basic joys using Traveller's material are:

GURPS TRAVELLER for the early Classic Third Imperium
Classic Traveller for the early classic Third Imperium.

All else just annoy the crap out of me (except perhaps the Millieu Zero era).

:)
 
Hmmmm. I'm really trying to remember and I can't. I remember reading *somewhere* that the stars listed on the Traveller maps were the *important* stars where people lived, but that some of the other hexes had stars in them that were useless.

This may have been for a different game or from a non-canon source, but if true would explain how gaps could be crossed so easily.
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Jay

No - look at Theta Borealis Sector on TravellerMap - none of the worlds are inhabited, but all of them are shown.
 
At the risk of jumping into this thread and causing it to live even longer and end up at near c rocks...

The 2-D jump map is the same for me as the magic heat shedding tech and the fact that Traveller ship metal bumps off hard rads and micro-rocks. It works that way for some reason. Unless a referee needs the reason for game purposes, who cares?

As for empty hex jumping, fairly early in my Traveller playing (early 80s) we could do it then, so I do now.
 
If hydrogen is the necessary fuel, and jump technology is only sensitive to volume (not mass), why not just store the hydrogen as something like butane? You get about 1/23 of a mole of butane per ml, and about 1/28 of a mole per ml of liquid H2. A mole of butane provides 10 hydrogen atoms - so 10/23 per ml. A mole of H2 provides 2 hydrogen atoms. so 2/28 per ml.

That's like a 6 fold difference.

So why wouldn't a jump 1 ship simply carry 10% of volume for the hydrogen for the jump, and then another 10% volume of butane for 6 more jumps?

Catalytic cracking of butane is 19th century technology, and further is very simple under high temperatures without any catalyst needed (high temperatures easily provided by a hot fusion drive).

Further, storing butane is much easier and low tech than storing hydrogen.
 
Because the game designers never thought about real world chemistry.

I think you're right. I think this is a weakness of Traveller, though. There are settings out there like Star Wars and Warhammer 40k that are "soft" sci-fi (space opera, space fantasy, whichever you'd like to call it) that at least carefully avoid mentioning "hard" scientific stuff (Han Solo's "Kessel run in 12 parsecs" notwithstanding).

Traveller tries to be "sorta" hard sci-fi and falls on its face in so many ways because the designer didn't run some of the stuff by somebody who got top grades in chemistry and physics.

It leaves alot to clean up if you're a fan of self-consistent game universes.

Too much for me; I think I'm going to dump it.

EDIT: Re-read this and realized this comment is totally off-topic. Maybe I should delete it and open a new thread?
 
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Because the game designers never thought about real world chemistry.


More like because the game designers only had roughly 150 pages divided between three little books in which to introduce an entire sci-fi RPG in which you could design characters, ships, worlds, animals, and several other things in order to create a somewhat detailed setting in which to play.

A RPG which, I'll point out, you are still discussing THIRTY FIVE YEARS after it's initial release. :rolleyes:

Did GDW know about butane, propane, and various other hydrides? Damn straight, seeing as they owned cigarette lighters, gas grills, and the like.

Did GDW think including other fuels in the game was worth "page price" they needed to pay? Hell no.

Butane is a better way to carry hydrogen around? Tell me something I didn't know in 1978.

Better yet, come up with workable rules for it, apply those rules to the setting, and share the results with us here.
 
Another thing to take into account is the price. Free hydrogen is quite more plentiful than butane (or propane, or any other hydrocarbon, for what is worth). Hydrogen may be skipped free from gas giants or obtained from water (or butane, or many other places), while butane is quite scarcer, and, due to other uses (most of us use quite more than free hydrogen), probably more expensive.

So, while it could be an option when multiple jumps are prime requisite, I don't believe it could be in widespread use.

And even when multiple jumps are prime requisite, those jumps would probably be high (jump 4 or more, at least at TL 15, where for jump 6 or less you'd better use a single jump ship), and you'd need also tanks to store (even if for just the time you need to crack butane) the hydrogen you obtain, prior to jump (as I guess it will be produced at slower rate than the jump drive uses it. Remember it is consumed in 2 battle turns, so 40 min), so you wouldn't save so much space, voiding the main reason to use it.

EDIT: another possibility would be to carry this butane in your hold and crack it while in jump to allow you for another jump. You'd have to store the free carbon you obtain from that, but I don't believe this to be a major problem, though I don't know if it will come in solid form.
 
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