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All Warships Should Have Drop Tanks

I never expected this thing to go over 200 posts.

It's always the ones you least expect. Though in this case I'd have been surprised if it didn't. It's an old long winded debate, always good for many posts :) I actually found one well stated problem I've not seen or considered before (see next)...

For a moment I would like to consider the statements concerning "there are no designs for drop tank ships, therefore it must not work and can't be done." or such like.

I think the point is more along the lines of "If drop tanks work the way the rules say then a lot of canon designs are stupid and make no sense, they'd surely be using drop tanks instead.

The best example of this (and my see next from above) is the post about even small merchant ships benefiting from strapping on drop tanks instead of spending 100 times as much to carry their jump fuel inboard as part of the hull. That's a huge impact on trade and merchant ships in my opinion. Even before one starts adding other ideas of why one can't carry other items externally as well.


First off, if it can't be done, why have drop tank rules in various rules books and in all the different rules sets?

I'm sure it was introduced for no other reason than it was a kewl idea, possibly from some fiction, dropped in with not enough thought to consequences.

If the rule for use is in the books, it is up to us to figure out how to use the rule.

I think the rules in the books shouldn't require major rework just to make them work without impacting negatively on everything that has come before.
 
First, we need to be careful what Rule set we are refering to. CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, MgT, T20 etc. since each has separate "rules" which may conflict.

...and trying to reconcile said rule sets with "canon". Good luck with that...

Here's some info from Trillion Credit Squadron:
Page 13, Fuel tankage:
"Other types of Fuel Tankage: There are four varieties of fuel tankage which are not integral to a ship, each with advantages and disadvantages. These are collapsable tanks, demountable tanks, exterior demountable tanks, and drop tanks. These may be added to any ship at any time, and may be added to any ship for TCS provided the cost is paid."
"Drop tanks: (pg14) The disposable tank rule (Book 5, Page 27) allows the construction of tanks which can be dropped from the ship. The reduced ship tonnage, combined with the higher resulting capacity of the ship's drives, can result in increased jump number or maneuver drive number. Power Plant number may increase, but it's energy output remains the same.
When a ship is produced with drop tanks, the total tonnage of the ship without drop tanks determines the number of weapons allowed.
Drop tanks may be built onto a ship when it is originally produced at a cost of Cr10,000: they may be added to an existing ship at a cost of Cr1000 per ton. In both cases the tanks themselves must also be produced at Cr1000 per ton. Building time is 10 weeks: installation time is only a few minutes."

Fuel bladders are "bags" that convert cargo space in to a container suitable for storing fuel. But the fuel thus stored can not be "used" directly, it must be pumped in to "regular" tanks for use. The bags themselves are not "structural" per se, the cargo hold is. They're more an insulating layer than anything.

Dismountable tanks are tanks that are "hard mounted" to the ship, but easily detached. Again, typically, this is done with excess cargo space. These tanks CAN be used for operations directly, but they are not "drop tanks" per se. They're simply "easily removable" compared to hull space used as fuel tankage.

No where in CT, MT, or TNE have I seen references to a "Jump Fuel Tanker" as an external fuel source. However, the Tankers pictured in FSOSI (a very broken product) had long fueling "boom's", which would seem to be the only practical way to refuel. Might I make a suggestion, the fuel fittings from the drop tank entry, at Cr10000 for drop tanks, should also be used for tankers, and thus be placed on any design using tankers or drop tanks to allow a ship to fuel/refuel. Thus a ship may have either Fuel Scoops, External Fueling coupling's or both.

There's a difference between refueling between ships, and using a "tanker" for operational purposes. It's one thing to transfer 20K tons of fuel over a period of a day from a tanker or fuel ships in to the receiving ship, and quite another to burn that fuel for jump. If we take the HG Jump rule at face value, Jump fuel must be consumed in 40 minutes. That's quite a different demand than simply pumping fuel from one ship to another.

Now concerning Drop tanks only being available at TL14: There are no TL14 worlds in the Island clusters campaign, yet there are rules for drop tanks. Why? There is no reference to Drop tank TL in CT, MT or TNE.

Drop tanks are referenced in FF&S, with no TL limitation, and they're containers of hull material that need to match the parent ship. If your ship is streamlined, the tanks are also. If your ship has EM Masking, so do the tanks (the ship has to power it). They also need to have internal structural reinforcement, and whatever minimal armor rating that ships have (40?). Basically, a drop tank is the same as an empty ship hull, and costs the same.

This is why I think if you take a TNE "drop tank", add a M-Drive, bridge, and crew, you get a TNE "Jump Tanker".

The idea that drop tanks are some kind of flimsy cast off doesn't sit well with me. 10K Dton of LHyd is 10MKg. That's a mass that DOES NOT want to "move" easily, and will exert a lot of force when it starts sloshing around, so I don't see "flimsy" anywhere in a drop tank design, and I think the TNE "drop tank is a hull with internal structure" fits very well.

Simply, I don't think there should be a "special" drop tank. I'd rather have documentation of the Jump process (fuel consumption, charge time, hold time, issues with near space bodies, etc.). Because thats what all this centers around, frankly, the rest is just engineering (and I would argue straightforward engineering). I don't know why the system of engineering that is Traveller ship construction can support the concept of Battle Riders, but not "Tanker Riders", or that those "Tanker Riders" can't undock conveniently before Jump.

A space based drop tank needs a detachment mechanism (explosive bolts, docking grapple, or whatever) and an acceleration mechanism to facilitate separation, ranging from a solid fuel rocket booster (like the Space Shuttle uses for the SRBs when they separate) to something as sophisticated as an M-Drive for a reusable tank.

In TNE there are references to deep space refueling caches. Would this be tankers or pre-positioned tanks, either demountable, drop, or fuel bladders. I can't see tankers sitting for years on end waiting to refuel a ship, or building "deep space" stations to hold fuel when a few tanks detached from a tender and left to "drift" would fill the same need.

I could swear I had seen reference to caches pre-TNE, but I am hardly a Canonista.

That said, I can visualize different methods of setting up such caches. Ideally, the caches are made of some reinforced bladder system that can be assembled on site and withstand the necessary stresses of filling and emptying, micro-meteorite damage, and any necessary station keeping activity to maintain their stable orbit/position in space. They could also be done with "drop tanks" bound together somehow.

Then, over time, the tankers arrive to either drop off and attach the filled drop tanks to the cache, or to pump fuel in to the bladders.
 
Fascinating discussions! I have been trying to get through this thread for a few weeks; there's been a lot to take in, obviously.

First comments: I can see that all of the warship-related discussion (strategies, tactics, operations, fueling issues, etc.) prove that a wargame was grafted on to CT--not as in the individually complete Mayday, Snapshot, Striker, Azhanti High Lightning, Fifth Frontier War, or Soloman Rim War games, but as a series of unthought out bits and pieces (on both the ship, fleet, planet, system, and empire scales). That's why there are too many broken ship designs, or broken concepts (riders, and external fuel tanks). An Atlantic or Kokirrak adds flavor to the TU, but without research to make sure they work. There's also an economic wargame, if you will, in bits and pieces. Little bits of information designed to further free tramping, but hints of the larger world: information about subsidized merchant vehicles, but not much to make them practical, from Book 2; much more helpful info seen in the Traveller Adventure book about operations, but not enough to get started. Then through that book as well, we learn a bit about subsector and sector lines, as well as some good details about Megacorps. More info comes through additional resources. CT Book 4 (Mercenary) and 5 (High Guard) help expand the wargame aspect, while 7 (Merchant Prince) expands the economic wargame aspect. But both of these grafted on wargame and economic wargame are drastically broken. That's why I think we have all these problems that have come up in this thread. Making matters worse, there are all these additional things grafted on from the later rulesets: MT, TNE, T4, MGT, and GT. They only seem to cause more confusion!

I have not studied the rules in depth, or made the calculations as some of you have had. But I have read your comments and studied what has been presented. It almost seems like it would be better to dump both drop tanks and battle riders as ideas...yet some how they both co-exist in the OTU.

If you can have weird dispersed hull configurations which can jump okay, such as the battleriders, it should be easy enough to have the jump field include drop tanks. It's just another dispersed configuration...isn't it?

It seems as though the most practical solution for MTU is to rule out the drop tanks. Then, allow jump capacitors to hold the energy for the jump long enough for a tanker to top off the warship's tanks and move away to a safe distance before a jump can be made. Finally, rearrange the ship damage allocation tables for more practical results.

On the question of refitting ships from TL 14 to TL 15, I thought about several examples as seen onscreen in four major science fiction franchises.

In Star Wars IV: A New Hope, the Y-wing and X-wing fighters have their armament changed, presumably from turbolasers, to the proton torpedoes necessary to hit the Death Star's thermal exhaust port. That seemed to be a drastic but feasible solution well within the resources available for the Rebel base on the moon of Yavin 4. In the original Battlestar Galactica series, there was one episode (The Long Patrol) where the lasers were replaced by superior speed and maneuverability (and an advanced voice-activated computer was attached that could fly the ship). These were experiments, seen in just the one episode. In a later episode (Fire in Space), the lasers were modified with some special mechanisms to shoot fire-fighting chemicals on attack-style runs into the landing bays when the Galactica was on fire. In all three of these cases, the replacement equipment fit well into the existing housings, suggesting some modular tech designing. It goes without saying that the Imperial Design Protocols should be able to do the same thing as well, to replace damaged units or even to upgrade to advanced models.

In the second Star Trek: The Original Series pilot, it is shown to be possible to adapt control panels from a mining station to replace starship bridge control panels with minimal work ('it fits like a glove'). The non-canon but licensed Star Trek Technical Manual by Franz Joseph postulates bridges are comprised of replacable modules; it also shows a great many types of Federation Starfleet starships with similar design components such as the saucers, or the lower engineering hulls, or cylindrical warp nacelles, all of which could be rearranged into different designs. In Star Trek: The Motion Picture, we see that existing starships can be refit to take advantage of technological advances (hinted at from the era of the two pilots, and the ship is clearly refit between the second pilot and the original series; and from the original series to the animated series). Later, in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, we are introduced to the Excelsior, a new ship designed to be a test bed for a new type of warp drive; the ship is later refit for active service, as seen with a different bridge and hull variations in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country under the command of Captain Sulu. The Excelsior class is well-represented by original and variant appearances during the Next Generation (and probably in Deep Space Nine as well). And in the licensed Deep Space Nine Technical Manual, there are many 'kitbashes' where the various sections (saucers, nacelles, engineering hulls) are combined in different (though not likely practical) combinations and permutations.

In the first season of Buck Rogers in the 25th Century (A Dream of Jennifer), there's an ordinary freighter that we discover has an experimental tachyon drive installed aboard (as well as carrying weapons to another planet). This would be a major refit, even as a test vehicle, indicating a strong technical capacity, and that should be well within the capacity of an Imperial Naval or Scout Base or Way Station, I would think.

In fact, it would make more sense that all refueling for active duty (or detached duty) Navy and Scout Vessels should be handled at their bases, where available. In systems without naval bases, Navy refueling should be done at gas giants (most often) or from oceans/glaciers, for security reasons (even for common ships like Gazelles and Kinunirs. Perhaps naval bases should have several components: an orbital base around the main world, a downport on a planet (looks better for recruiting purposes), and a facility around each gas giant or non-main world with water resources, complete with fuel skimmer shuttles and purifying plants working round the clock to keep fuel supplies high for the ships based in the system as well as vessels that pass through on patrol (and stockpile for war, disasters, and emergencies). Of course, those additional bases must be garrisoned, guarded, defended with at least SDBs, and have huge amounts of tankage storage space (millions of tons, potentially) either in the form of storage tanks or actually tankers (they have to be based somewhere in peacetime, after all).

Okay, I've gone on long enough for now, sorry.:D

Gordon Long
 
Actually, Whartung, 10KTd of LYhd in tanks is going to be about 10.5M kg... because the additional mass of the tanks themselves. You're right that they won't be flimsy, but they are likely to be stressed for one-axis thrust, and still can be quite brittle.

Oh, and under T5, if you jump with your 20Td Armored Fighter next to you, it's chunky salsa after you jump, too. It's not just tanks. Anything smaller than you within 100 diameters of you is destroyed when you jump.
 
There's a difference between refueling between ships, and using a "tanker" for operational purposes. It's one thing to transfer 20K tons of fuel over a period of a day from a tanker or fuel ships in to the receiving ship, and quite another to burn that fuel for jump. If we take the HG Jump rule at face value, Jump fuel must be consumed in 40 minutes. That's quite a different demand than simply pumping fuel from one ship to another.

Well HG talks about the amount of energy points that have to be expended in order to jump: the points have to be equivalent to two turns output from a power plant whose number is equivalent to the jump being performed. If it can do this in two turns it jumps at the end of two turns, it it can do this in one turn or less it jumps at the end of one turn. This indicates that jump can be performed in 20 minutes - as a turn is the smallest step in HG it sets an upper bound of 20 minutes for jump fuel consumption - but no lower bound.

However, personally speaking, something more explanatory than a rule in a turn-constrained wargame would be best to get to some conclusion regarding jump drive operation.
 
I could swear I had seen reference to caches pre-TNE, but I am hardly a Canonista.

That said, I can visualize different methods of setting up such caches. Ideally, the caches are made of some reinforced bladder system that can be assembled on site and withstand the necessary stresses of filling and emptying, micro-meteorite damage, and any necessary station keeping activity to maintain their stable orbit/position in space. They could also be done with "drop tanks" bound together somehow.

Then, over time, the tankers arrive to either drop off and attach the filled drop tanks to the cache, or to pump fuel in to the bladders.

The TNE Calibration Points are generally located on a natural source of fuel, though there is an implication that they can be built up from scratch if needed. Regency Sourcebook, P76.
 
I never expected this thing to go over 200 posts. Still, many great points are being brought up. And some new "rules" as well.

First, we need to be careful what Rule set we are refering to. CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, MgT, T20 etc. since each has separate "rules" which may conflict.
Secondly: even in a rule set, various publishers made up different rules, that is, in CT both GDW and DGP produces "rules" concerning Jump and how it all work's.

For example, the discussion on "explosive bolts to detach tank", from which rules set? or just a house rule?

I think that unless otherwise specified we should agree that it is CT


Here's some info from Trillion Credit Squadron:
Drop tanks may be built onto a ship when it is originally produced at a cost of Cr10,000: they may be added to an existing ship at a cost of Cr1000 per ton. In both cases the tanks themselves must also be produced at Cr1000 per ton. Building time is 10 weeks: installation time is only a few minutes."

Might I make a suggestion, the fuel fittings from the drop tank entry, at Cr10000 for drop tanks, should also be used for tankers, and thus be placed on any design using tankers or drop tanks to allow a ship to fuel/refuel. Thus a ship may have either Fuel Scoops, External Fueling coupling's or both.

No sweat, make a lot of sense. However the economic of L-Hyd is still broken and need some lid if Book 2 is still to make sense (see later).

For a moment I would like to consider the statements concerning "there are no designs for drop tank ships, therefore it must not work and can't be done." or such like.
First off, if it can't be done, why have drop tank rules in various rules books and in all the different rules sets? If the rule for use is in the books, it is up to us to figure out how to use the rule. (thus this thread) Obviously there is more to Jump Fuel, and Jumping than just going from hex to hex on a map. Since there are no tanker designs in CT, or TNE then I should infer that Tankers won't work under those rules sets! Obviously not, since there are references to tankers and other fleet auxillaries.

Good question, methodological issue in scientific observation:
Question: We have not find an exemple of what should exist if what we think was coherent with the known facts. What is the conclusion: we do not know enough to make sense of the known facts because we do not register the facts that are there to be registered or because our reasonning is flawed (feel free to answer both)?

Since ACS have been well observed in the OTU, I decided we were seeing what was to be seen and simply needed an explanation (You need conventionnal tankage to backfill). Since Trillion Credit Business was kept in the dark, I decided that the Jump tankers that made a lot of sense given what we knew were there unseen until the proper supplement get published. I extrapolated somes rules from HG drop tanks. GT made a lot of sense from the whole thing, demonstrating that it could works and how, while T4 gave up.


In TNE there are references to deep space refueling caches. Would this be tankers or pre-positioned tanks, either demountable, drop, or fuel bladders. I can't see tankers sitting for years on end waiting to refuel a ship, or building "deep space" stations to hold fuel when a few tanks detached from a tender and left to "drift" would fill the same need.

I guess whatever suit you, but the most economical "cache" would be fuel pods, a guardship, a fitting ship, and a despatch ship ( to bring the bad news about the raiders that got the info from a spy...).

"deep space station" have a logic of their own, sometime caches for covert operation, but not always caches just "short cut" or "spring board".

The way I see it, the "cache" are set up for a specific operations, (the equivalent of the Doolitle raid, things that are not supposed to be possible in the enemy's mind) or as milk cow (think U-Boat operation) not as depot sleeping for a hundred year.

Selandia
 
In TNE there are references to deep space refueling caches. Would this be tankers or pre-positioned tanks, either demountable, drop, or fuel bladders. I can't see tankers sitting for years on end waiting to refuel a ship, or building "deep space" stations to hold fuel when a few tanks detached from a tender and left to "drift" would fill the same need.

Just a few more thoughts to add to the mix.
Just a few more thoughts to add to the mix.

I have not now on hand, but I think I remember in some TAS news on (MT rules) challengers they talk about Margaret constructing a deep space refueling base on the Hinterworlds to avoid ships having to enter Nullian League space while going to trade with Hivers.
 
Well HG talks about the amount of energy points that have to be expended in order to jump: the points have to be equivalent to two turns output from a power plant whose number is equivalent to the jump being performed. If it can do this in two turns it jumps at the end of two turns, it it can do this in one turn or less it jumps at the end of one turn. This indicates that jump can be performed in 20 minutes - as a turn is the smallest step in HG it sets an upper bound of 20 minutes for jump fuel consumption - but no lower bound.

However, personally speaking, something more explanatory than a rule in a turn-constrained wargame would be best to get to some conclusion regarding jump drive operation.

Actually, it implies a notable lower bound for normal ships (PP=Jn) of 0:20:01... which means that the fastest jump has an implied lower bound of 10 minutes.

And since it gives 2 turns as the limit, it means that normal commerce takes 21-40 minutes to jump.
 
For a lower boundary I recall a fluff note somewhere about a IISS X-Boat turnaround record of something like 4 minutes. That always seemed very low to me considering the need for the tender to get to the drifting xboat, at 1g, then transfer 40tons of fuel, and move to a safe distance.

With an incredible set of circumstances it might be possible. Or presuming (as I do for MTU) exacting jump plots. So the xboat comes out at 100d from the tender and they are waiting with fuel nozzles extended and the plot already pre-calculated.

Or the person writing the fluff just picked a number from thin air :)
 
For a lower boundary I recall a fluff note somewhere about a IISS X-Boat turnaround record of something like 4 minutes. That always seemed very low to me considering the need for the tender to get to the drifting xboat, at 1g, then transfer 40tons of fuel, and move to a safe distance.

With an incredible set of circumstances it might be possible. Or presuming (as I do for MTU) exacting jump plots. So the xboat comes out at 100d from the tender and they are waiting with fuel nozzles extended and the plot already pre-calculated.

Or the person writing the fluff just picked a number from thin air :)

several things:
1) the tender is larger, and thus won't be affected by the X-boat jumping
2) The tender might only have been transferring data, if the XBoat link was a 1Pc or 2Pc run and not needing to change crews.
3) The XBoat might have precipitated out at the tender's 100D limit (thus reducing time)

I think 2 is very likely, since docking from the tender's 100D limit would take a minute minimum,
 
For a lower boundary I recall a fluff note somewhere about a IISS X-Boat turnaround record of something like 4 minutes. That always seemed very low to me considering the need for the tender to get to the drifting xboat, at 1g, then transfer 40tons of fuel, and move to a safe distance.
I'm pretty sure that's the time for the "handoff" of the information the incoming X-boat is carrying. Another X-boat is standing by and jumps out as soon as the information has been transferred. It takes a lot longer to collect and service the first x-boat.


Hans
 
I'm sure I recall the context of the fluff being how long it takes to jump again though. Something additional to the fluff and included with it being a standard practice of hours to run checks on the jump drive. Can't recall where the fluff was though :)

And of course, it being fluff, well...
 
I'm sure I recall the context of the fluff being how long it takes to jump again though. Something additional to the fluff and included with it being a standard practice of hours to run checks on the jump drive. Can't recall where the fluff was though :)

And of course, it being fluff, well...

GurpsTrav states (if I remember correctly...) 10-60 minutes between jumps after entering a system, assuming of course that you have enough fuel for the next one. This is 'getting the bearings' and 'setting the new course' time. Not sure for OTU times, though...
 
GurpsTrav states (if I remember correctly...) 10-60 minutes between jumps after entering a system, assuming of course that you have enough fuel for the next one. This is 'getting the bearings' and 'setting the new course' time. Not sure for OTU times, though...

IIRC 16 hours are usually needed for checks and suchlike to the jump drive.
 
DGP's Starship Operator's Manual has a table for Jump time calculation, based on the TL of the ships computer, at TL15+ the ship's computer could calculate the jump "vector", etc in 1 minute. Since the time to attach drop tanks is less than 10 minutes A second jump could be very quick, if you arrived right next to your waiting drop tanks, and if you could get them attached quickly enough.

Compared to the hours it takes to move in from the 100d limit at a gas giant, skim fuel, and refine the fuel, then move back out to the 100d limit, upwards of several days in most cases. Pre-positioned fuel caches would seem to be the way to go. Placed far enough out in the system to avoid any 100d limit.

Here's another thought: Jump 6 dreadnaughts with j-3 internal fuel. For only 4% more tonnage your Kokirraks could make a J6 jump with drop tanks, or J3 on internal fuel. Using J6 drop tanks, and reserving j3 internal fuel, the unrefuelled range of the ship is increased to Jump-9.
 
DGP's Starship Operator's Manual has a table for Jump time calculation, based on the TL of the ships computer, at TL15+ the ship's computer could calculate the jump "vector", etc in 1 minute. Since the time to attach drop tanks is less than 10 minutes A second jump could be very quick, if you arrived right next to your waiting drop tanks, and if you could get them attached quickly enough.

Compared to the hours it takes to move in from the 100d limit at a gas giant, skim fuel, and refine the fuel, then move back out to the 100d limit, upwards of several days in most cases. Pre-positioned fuel caches would seem to be the way to go. Placed far enough out in the system to avoid any 100d limit.

Here's another thought: Jump 6 dreadnaughts with j-3 internal fuel. For only 4% more tonnage your Kokirraks could make a J6 jump with drop tanks, or J3 on internal fuel. Using J6 drop tanks, and reserving j3 internal fuel, the unrefuelled range of the ship is increased to Jump-9.

Even if You have fuel on your tanks, some more time must be spent on checking systems and position. This is (as I understand) the reason for needing several hours between jumps. Even so it's really quite faster than refuelling on a GG, more so for large ships that can do it, but for inherent dangers, use to make the refuelling with small crafts instead of skimming by themselves (It must be quite dangerous to maneover a 200000 ton starship on atmosphere).

About the idea of jump drives without fuel to jump, so depending on drop tanks, please read (if you didn't) my entry on Dec 15 (page 19 this thread).

Even so, I insist that may only be done on firiendly space (to move reserves or replacements, for example).
 
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Yet somehow, no OTU merchant design substituted them to conventionnal tankage ???? MTU rationalisation a posteriori of that OTU Deux Ex Machina: you still need a basic tankage to back fill from

But cargo holds at Cr100,000/ton have power, lighting, gravity, life support etc.
Sure, SOME cargos could be kept in external pods, with no LS control, effectively exposed to the cold and vacuum of space, but most can't
 
No where in CT, MT, or TNE have I seen references to a "Jump Fuel Tanker" as an external fuel source.

All it takes is a tanker big enough to carry enough fuel for two of its own jumps PLUS enough fuel for one more jump by whatever ship(s) it is supporting. Which means it would be extremely large, and only really suitable for relatively small ships - I doubt you could build one that would be worth the bother to support even one Tigress, much less a squadron of them.

In TNE there are references to deep space refueling caches. Would this be tankers or pre-positioned tanks, either demountable, drop, or fuel bladders. I can't see tankers sitting for years on end waiting to refuel a ship, or building "deep space" stations to hold fuel when a few tanks detached from a tender and left to "drift" would fill the same need.

In a TCS campaign I ran a long time ago, three different players decided to use deep space refueling.
Using three different techniques...;0

1) Esperanza deployed space stations with tank farms two parsecs apart throughout the New Islands subsector, to allow them to move their TL11 ships freely without being noticed.

This didn't work as well as intended, since it took up a moderately enormous part of their budget to build the stations plus tankers required to keep the stations operational.

2) Amondiage pre-positioned fuel tankage at convenient (to them) deep space points. No stations, in this case, just tanks with transponders.

Didn't have Esperanza's problem, since they were only maintaining a still classified (but less than three) tankfarms.

3) New Home used J-1 Battleriders. Which sounds like a contradiction in terms, but...
They build J-1 battleriders (sacrificing ~12% of available ship displacement for a J-drive and fuel for same), and J-4 Battletenders.
Operational mode was that the Tenders would carry the riders to a point one parsec from the target, then the Rider would jump insystem with drop tanks, and still have a full tank for jumping back out of the system if things went south.

Required no infrastructure beyond the factory that constructed drop tanks, and, all in all, worked fairly well.
Only real limitation was that it limited them to five parsecs from home (four parsecs out on tender+drop tanks, one more parsec on rider plus drop tanks, then rider back to tender on internal fuel and tender back to New Home on internal fuel).

Note that Esperanza's attempt was the most ambitious, but also far and away the most difficult to maintain. As I recall, they spent almost half their budget on the system, and only got to use it once....

Twice, if you count their expedition to the Third Imperium to try to buy the TL13 IDP....
 
Responding to page 41 issues...

Yikes! That has got to go, or some sort of defense introduced. Maybe let meson screens reduce the strength of the shots that penetrates -- with a way to have higher factor screen in bigger ships.
Hans

I'm not certain if this has been responded to as yet, as I'm only on the early 100's range of messages in this thread, but...

The thing about criticals as listed on page 41 of High Guard is this:

Multiple critical hits do not occur unless the firing weapon's size code is larger than the targeted ship's size code. Thus, a ship whose firing weapon is a size code N, firing at a ship whose size code is Q for example, only inflicts one hit if it penetrates.

Likewise? A Meson Screen's ability to deflect incoming meson attacks is such that a modified 10+ is required to secure a hit against a ship with a Meson Screen Value 7 versus an E spinal Mount. If you assume a large hull (size Q+), with a +2 bonus to hit, and the target ship has an agility of say, 4, the final to hit would be:

4 (base to hit for D+ sized spinal mount)
-4 Agility of Targeted ship
+2 Size modifier for being Q+ in size
+2 Close Range
+0 (Computer difference: assuming both ships have the best computers possible)

(net result is an automatic hit, as the roll of a 2 is automatically modified by +4 to a 6 result - which is higher than the base to hit).

So. What happens at this point with the E spinal firing at a Q sized ship? Roll versus penetration value of a Meson 7 screen versus an E spinal, and the needed roll to penetrate is a 10+. Even if the meson screen is penetrated, then you still have one final "to penetrate" roll versus the Hull type. If you assume a cylinder type hull, you still have to roll a 4+ on 2d6 to penetrate. So - Meson guns, while nasty, and have a high chance of securing a hit - still have some means of being defended against when looking at the High Guard ship combat rules.
 
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