Alleged Zhodani atrocities

[Shadowfax]

I found these news flashes concerning the alleged Zhodani atrocities on Ruby and Emerald and I just wanted to say that this is Imperial propaganda. The Zhodani are too nice to commit atrocities. It is just not our . . . ahem, their style. So, now, is there anyone of you out there who can tell me more about these alleged events? Don't be afraid to speak up. There are no wrong answers. Everyone is welcome.

Rhylanor/Rhylanor (0306-A434934-F) Date: 039-1110

The public relations office of the Imperial Navy refused to deny or to
confirm rumors of Zhodani atrocities against the citizens of Ruby and
Emerald during the recent occupation of those worlds. [JTAS #20]

Rhylanor/Rhylanor (0306-A434934-F) Date: 160-1110

Rumors persist of Zhodani atrocities against citizens of Ruby and Emerald
during the recent occupation of those worlds. No first hand accounts of the
occupation have been made available, as access to these worlds (indeed, to
all worlds occupied during the recent hostilities) is restricted. [JTAS
#21]

 

[GypsyComet]

Yes. They are propaganda. That does not make then false statements.

You may attribute these stories to different definitions of the word "atrocity" as held by the Imperials and the Zhodani. The real world is full of examples that I won't pursue here, and the Imperial/Zhodani relationship was purposely presented with that understanding.

Things were done. The Zhodani don't consider them atrocities. The Imperials do.

Remember, Imperials are all criminally insane as far as the Zhodani are concerned.

 

[McPerth]

I agree with Gipsy that the word "atrodicty" can have so many different meanings that it can be seen as such by one side and not by the other.

I guess for many Imperials, the idea of mass mind scanning, or to detain some people on the basis of their thoughts (and so, with unproven accusations, as most Imperial people will see) can be an atrocity, while it's not so for a Zhodani. I guess just the word "reeducate" sounds close to an atrocity for most of us, while it's very important in Zhodani law system...

OTOH, the Zhodani may see jailing people as without trying to cure their madness as an atrocity, as there is no such condemn in their law system, for if the convict is insane, it should be cured, and if that's not posible, then it should be eliminaed to protect the society, but just keeping him/her jailed is seen by them as too cruel (and useless) a punishment.

And never forget that in combat operations, decisions (right or wrong) are taken that can be retrospectively seen as atrocities, mostly by people that has never been in such operations and experienced the stress and need of quick decisions that combat needs.

In any case, I guess for the Zhodani true atrocities would be seen as insanity, and so avoided when posible, and condemned when they occur, and most unit commanders so accused went to reeducation at the end of the war.

 

[rancke]

I guess for many Imperials, the idea of mass mind scanning, or to detain some people on the basis of their thoughts (and so, with unproven accusations, as most Imperial people will see) can be an atrocity, while it's not so for a Zhodani.

To a Zhodani mass mind scanning wouldn't be an atrocity, but it's AFAIK something they can't do. IIRC the best Zhodani telepaths can read the minds of individuals for a couple of minutes half a dozen to a dozen times a day.

But I agree that the likeliest source of atrocity rumors (if they're not just made up out of whole cloth) would be mindreading of prisoners.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

To a Zhodani mass mind scanning wouldn't be an atrocity, but it's AFAIK something they can't do. IIRC the best Zhodani telepaths can read the minds of individuals for a couple of minutes half a dozen to a dozen times a day.

But I agree that the likeliest source of atrocity rumors (if they're not just made up out of whole cloth) would be mindreading of prisoners.


Hans

Well, perhaps "mass scaning" were a poor choice of words, though if several units from the Tavrchedle' (or Consular Guard) were sent as ocupation forces, enough of it would be to be seen as such.

And most those worlds being fairly low TL (5 for most of them), any such intrusion would be seen very negatively. I guess in other planets with more restrictive laws (where privacy is less valued) the effect would have been lower (even if the use of psionics is equaly abohorred).

 

[mike wightman]

Alleged = no real proof

Atrocity = mind scans and personality alteration

 

[Spinward Scout]

To a Zhodani mass mind scanning wouldn't be an atrocity, but it's AFAIK something they can't do.

Telempathy can be done on multiple targets at the same time, depending on stages of success, per TNE.

 

[BeRKA]

The impies are liars. It's just propaganda.

Long live the brave freedom-fighters of Ine Givar!

 

[rancke]

The impies are liars. It's just propaganda.

Now that's an attitude that's going to create great confidence in anything you say.

Any time I hear someone declare that his side is entirely free of rotten apples, I know that anything he says is pure applesauce.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*beep-flash-boom*

Not sure how folks see T5 as a source of canon, but it mentions in one of the examples (for Life Insurance) a Marine whose Prime was KIA on Jewell during the evacuation of the Starport. Seems the Zhodani (who I actually rather like in some ways) dropped a nuke on the Starport and that is how our protagonist died.

So, considering the Imperium's stance on the use of nukes in warfare perhaps that is the "atrocity" that is mentioned?

 

[mike wightman]

A nuke made it past the point defence and nuclear dampers?

Bull

 

[Carlobrand]

Why would the Zho nuke a resource they wanted intact?

 

[McPerth]

Not sure how folks see T5 as a source of canon, but it mentions in one of the examples (for Life Insurance) a Marine whose Prime was KIA on Jewell during the evacuation of the Starport. Seems the Zhodani (who I actually rather like in some ways) dropped a nuke on the Starport and that is how our protagonist died.

So, considering the Imperium's stance on the use of nukes in warfare perhaps that is the "atrocity" that is mentioned?

See that FFW is a clear example of what is described in MT:IE¹ (page 25, and I guess other sources) as "Bad War", where Imperial Rules of War do not apply. I don't believe the use (with measures, as far as that can be said) of nuclear weapons can be seen as an atrocity, though massive use of them in a scorched earth strategy (à la Black War) sure would.

A nuke made it past the point defence and nuclear dampers?

Bull

Two points here:

Jewell is TL 12. As such, a TL 14 Zhodani nuke making it past its dampers it's not so surprising, IMHO.

Though not reflected on the rules, MT:SOM¹, when describing the nuclear dampers (page 52) says: While dampers are effective against fission weapons and fusion weapons that emply fission triggers, nuclear dampers are uselessagainst laser-detonated fusion warheads. Laser detoanted fusión warheads are TL 13, so it's quite likely the Zhodani used them.

NOTE : while I kow I'm citing MT sources for a CT discussion, I understand that such setting issues are applicable to both​

 

[rancke]

See that FFW is a clear example of what is described in MT:IE¹ (page 25, and I guess other sources) as "Bad War", where Imperial Rules of War do not apply.

On the other hand, some conventions of war clearly applies. There's one canonical character who is captured by the Xhodani early in the 5FW and is exchanged in time to fight in the Siege of Rhylanor.

Such conventions need not be the result of a formal agreement. European nations employed such conventions for many centuries, and I believe they were employed in the American Civil War (Though my source for the latter is fictional novels).

I don't believe the use (with measures, as far as that can be said) of nuclear weapons can be seen as an atrocity, though massive use of them in a scorched earth strategy (à la Black War) sure would.

Perhaps the difference is that tactical, low-yield, nukes are accepted?

Jewell is TL 12. As such, a TL 14 Zhodani nuke making it past its dampers it's not so surprising, IMHO.

Jewell is a fortress world reinforced by the Imperium to be a bulwark against the Zhodani. As such it would have massive Imperial forces equipped to TL15 standard, and it's exceeding odd (and wargamey) that Jewell's own forces are not equipped with imported TL15 equipment in the FFW game.

All that is besides the point, though, because Ruby and Emerald bouth have very small populations (any force capable of going toe to toe with Jewell should be able to swat the defenses of such worlds with ease) and were explicitly said to have been captured by the Zhodani early in the war.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

...
Though not reflected on the rules, MT:SOM¹, when describing the nuclear dampers (page 52) says: While dampers are effective against fission weapons and fusion weapons that emply fission triggers, nuclear dampers are uselessagainst laser-detonated fusion warheads. Laser detoanted fusión warheads are TL 13, so it's quite likely the Zhodani used them.

NOTE : while I kow I'm citing MT sources for a CT discussion, I understand that such setting issues are applicable to both​

Interesting. I went and did an internet search and stumbled on a Mongoose debate on the subject. One of the participants noted that in the TNE adventure, Guilded Lily, a starport uses a nuclear damper to prevent a ship's power plant from operating. I don't have that adventure, so cannot speak to the accuracy of the claim, but if MT and TNE disagree, maybe it's not something that can be easily ported into CT. Also, while SOM mentions laser-detonated nukes, I can't find any mention of them elsewhere in MT. There's nothing on them in the combat rules. Where do we get the information that they're available at TL13?

...
Jewell is a fortress world reinforced by the Imperium to be a bulwark against the Zhodani. As such it would have massive Imperial forces equipped to TL15 standard, and it's exceeding odd (and wargamey) that Jewell's own forces are not equipped with imported TL15 equipment in the FFW game. ...

I certainly would have expected the starport at least to have a TL15 damper.

 

[Golan2072]

You don't need the use of actual (very limited) psionics in order to conduct psychological warfare and brain-washing. The atrocities are probably along these lines.

 

[whulorigan]

Also, while SOM mentions laser-detonated nukes, I can't find any mention of them elsewhere in MT. There's nothing on them in the combat rules. Where do we get the information that they're available at TL13.

Laser detonated warheads were first mention in CT: Special Supplement #3: Missiles p.8:

Fusion warheads release great amounts of energy through hydrogen fusion. Those below standard tech level require a fission trigger (0.1 kiloton yield) while those at standard tech level and above achieve fusion by other means. They inflict 10 damage hits and 2 radiation hits per 0.1 kiloton of yield. Below standard tech level, there is a minimum yield of 0.2 kilotons. Base Price: Cr1,000,000 per kiloton yield (at tech level 8 there is a Cr100,000 surcharge for the fission trigger; at TL 9, there is a Cr90,000 surcharge for the fission trigger). TL 10. Mass: 20 kilograms (40 kilograms if below tech level 10).

 

[mike wightman]

Emm, that says "by other means" it does not say "laser trigger".

The other means could be an intense artificial gravity pulse (TL10), a nuclear damper designed to amplify the strong nuclear force and initiate fusion (TL12), or a combination of the two at TL12 +

 

[whulorigan]

Emm, that says "by other means" it does not say "laser trigger".

The other means could be an intense artificial gravity pulse (TL10), a nuclear damper designed to amplify the strong nuclear force and initiate fusion (TL12), or a combination of the two at TL12 +

OOPS. You're right. Wrong Reference.
It should be:

DGP - MT:SOM, p. 51 (right column, top):

"... there are two subtypes of fusion warheads: clean (which employs a laser system to trigger the fusion reaction, thus avoiding any significant radiation release), and dirty (which uses a fission bomb as a trigger and creates a massive radiation release).

Combining the two references I quoted perhaps justifies that at least some of the TL10+ warheads (or the TL10-TL11 ones) are laser-triggered.

 

[mike wightman]

So now in a 50kg missile not only do we have fusion material, we have a laser and enough energy stored in magic batteries to initiate fusion. With a guidance package and a maneuver drive and fuel good for an hour at 6g.

The Traveller missile needs a major retcon.

And another thought, why are these magic warheads not used in ground combat?