Alleged Zhodani atrocities

[McPerth]

On the other hand, some conventions of war clearly applies. There's one canonical character who is captured by the Xhodani early in the 5FW and is exchanged in time to fight in the Siege of Rhylanor.

Such conventions need not be the result of a formal agreement. European nations employed such conventions for many centuries, and I believe they were employed in the American Civil War (Though my source for the latter is fictional novels).


Perhaps the difference is that tactical, low-yield, nukes are accepted?

Well, the existence of such conventions is something I've always assumed, but never read about in Traveller (aside some threads here). In any case, there seem to be some rules (written or not) agreed among 3I and the Zho's, but not so sure they forbide limtied nuclear attacks.

About the limits, I guess they will be more target based than power based, so to say, and a very high yeld bomb on a moon used only as naval base would be more aceptable that small yeld bombs broped over purely civilian targets, just to give you an example.

Interesting. I went and did an internet search and stumbled on a Mongoose debate on the subject. One of the participants noted that in the TNE adventure, Guilded Lily, a starport uses a nuclear damper to prevent a ship's power plant from operating. I don't have that adventure, so cannot speak to the accuracy of the claim, but if MT and TNE disagree, maybe it's not something that can be easily ported into CT.

As I have always understood the dampers, they may stabilize (or destablilize) the atomic nuclei, and that would avoid nuclear decay, and so fission, but I'm not sure it would have any efect on fusion, as it des not depend on the stability of the nuclei (IIRC physics clases, many years ago).

Also, while SOM mentions laser-detonated nukes, I can't find any mention of them elsewhere in MT. There's nothing on them in the combat rules. Where do we get the information that they're available at TL13?

That's a good question... Frankly, I said it from my memory, being almost sure to have read it somewhere, but I cannot find now the reference. I might be worng (forgive me if so) or there can be other references to it that I cannot find now (or I might have assumed it from the +1 to UPP rate TL 13 gives to missile turrets).

I certainly would have expected the starport at least to have a TL15 damper.

And I'll agree for the Naval base part, and maybe other parts, but not for the whole starport (and less so for all Jewell starports, as I guess there are more than one). In any case, as I have not read the referenced text, I cannot be sure.

So now in a 50kg missile not only do we have fusion material, we have a laser and enough energy stored in magic batteries to initiate fusion. With a guidance package and a maneuver drive and fuel good for an hour at 6g.

I see the laser trigger (that would only need a flash) easier to fit on it than the grav planets that would be needed for the other options you talked about, or even more than the dampers, as, aside from what I said above about dampers and fusion (where I may well be wrong), IIRC their potence depends on the distance among the various damper emiters, and in the missile there will be little distance for them to work...

And another thought, why are these magic warheads not used in ground combat?

Who says they are not?

In dirstide combat, nukes are assumed to be less used due to colateral damages, but once fusion nukes are used, AFAIK, nothing is told about their triggers, and they may bell be laser trigered too...

 

[Carlobrand]

...
As I have always understood the dampers, they may stabilize (or destablilize) the atomic nuclei, and that would avoid nuclear decay, and so fission, but I'm not sure it would have an yefect on fusión, as it des not depend on the stability of the nuclei (IIRC physics clases, many years ago). ...

I'm not so great in the physics department. Point of fusion is to persuade two hydrogen atoms to overcome the Coulomb barrier and become a helium atom, in the course of which they release energy because it takes less energy to be two married protons than one single proton. Something to do with binding energy. Now, here is where I'm on thin physics ice: if you increase the strong nuclear force, do you not make it easier for those two protons to stick together and become a helium atom? Conversely, if you decrease the strong nuclear force, is it not harder for those two atoms to stay together?

The answer to that pretty well dictates whether that alleged Guilded Lily bit is grounded in good science or bad.

...That's a good question... Frankly, I said it from my memory, being almost sure to have read it somewhere, but I cannot find now the reference. I might be worng (forgive me if so) or there can be other references to it that I cannot find now (ot I might have assumed it from the +1 to UPP rate TL 13 gives to missile turrets). ...

Maybe GURPS or Mongoose?

...And I'll agree for the Naval base part, and maybe other parts, but not for the whole starport (and less so for all Jewell starports, as I guess there are more tan one). In any case, as I have not read the referenced text, I cannot be sure. ...

Me personally, I'd think it depends on the military value of the starport. On the one hand, if it's important to the defense effort and crippling it would hurt the defending fleet, there's some sense to it being attacked - and it should have defenses commensurate with its importance. A nuclear damper is pretty cheap compared to losing because you don't have one, and starports are supposedly Imperial jurisdiction. On the other hand, if it has no defensive worth to the defending fleet, then there's no more reason to defend it than to defend any other commercial venture - but then why would the Zho bother nuking something that had no influence on the battle?

...I see the laser trigger (that would only need a flash) easier to fit on it than the grav planets that would be needed for the other options you talked about, or even more than the dampers, as, aside from what I said above about dampers and fusión (where I may well be wrong), IIRC their potence depends on the distance among the various damper emiters, and in the missile there will be little distance for them to work ...

CT/MT has small fusion weapons: FGMPs.

From the Imperial Encyclopedia: "The PGMP consists of a power pack carried on the firer’s back, the weapon itself, and a flexible power link. The power pack powers a laser ignition system in the weapon itself which heats hydrogen fuel to a plasma state ... The FGMP-14 is similar in design and function to the PGMP-13. The FGMP-14 differs only in that it contains the plasma slightly longer until a fusion reaction begins to take place."

That's basically the same description used in Mercenary. The FGMP-14 rifle portion is 10 kg and heats enough hydrogen to generate a "beam" with a penetration of 34, which is nothing near the power in a 0.1kt nuke. I'm estimating a megawatt-second to achieve that. There's a lot of fudge in guessing how much of the rifle is the confinement and laser ignition system, but my feeling is that a system capable of generating a 0.1kt blast would be too big to fit in a missile warhead.

On a similar theme, the ship's fusion gun, which accepts 500 megawatts and triggers a fusion "beam" that can cross space to penetrate 2.8 meters of steel at a range of 70,000 km, occupies 7 cubic meters at TL12 and 2.5 cubic meters at TL14, under the Striker design system. It needs a 2 dTon turret - and can only fit two in the turret - under High Guard.

The basic idea of a fusion igniter is embodied in the existing fusion weapons. It's just that something capable of triggering a nuclear blast on a scale with a nuclear missile is quite a bit bigger than a missile. Remember that it's not just about cooking some liquid hydrogen with a laser blast; the hydrogen has to be compressed to a point where the laser energy can take it over the top into fusion, and that takes a chunk of machinery.

 

[rancke]

The answer to that pretty well dictates whether that alleged Guilded Lily bit is grounded in good science or bad.

And if I had a greater knowledge of physics, that might matter more to me than it does (Note that I'm not dissing people to whom it does matter more). To me, it's rubber physics anyway. The more important question (again, to me) is whether it's a capability that I want my starports to have. And on the whole, it is. I do assume that the smaller and poorer starports wouldn't have nuclear dampers, but the big ones? Do I want to be able to prevent PCs from getting into their ship and just blasting off? I can see that being a useful plot element on occasion.

On the other hand, for starports on powerful worlds the threat of being blasted out of the sky by system defenses should work just as well as a deterrent for impromptu departures, so it might be argued that being able to actually prevent starships from taking off is redundant. So perhaps conformity to known physical laws is, after all, more important than plot utility.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

And if I had a greater knowledge of physics, that might matter more to me than it does ...

Okay, I respect that, but I want to know.

 

[rancke]

Okay, I respect that, but I want to know.

And I don't blame you. I tried to make that clear in my post.


Hans

 

[aramis]

So now in a 50kg missile not only do we have fusion material, we have a laser and enough energy stored in magic batteries to initiate fusion. With a guidance package and a maneuver drive and fuel good for an hour at 6g.

The Traveller missile needs a major retcon.

And another thought, why are these magic warheads not used in ground combat?

TNE actually answers this... in a backhanded way. The laser is probably a chem-laser. One shot, the lasing chamber basically would melt really soon after firing due to the chemical reaction heat if not for the fact that it dies a very short while (1e-3 seconds or less) after fusion initiation by a very small, 1mg or less, laser triggered fusion pulse, and the fusion pulse blows the secondary fuelhard enough to trigger it. Sequence: chemlaser, small fusion pop, big fusion boom.

Why would this not be used on the battlefield? because the exhaust gasses are 2000° C+, carcinogenic, corrosive and generally not stuff you want to use anywhere you want to reuse.

 

[McPerth]

Maybe GURPS or Mongoose?

I don't think it came from any of them, because I have not read nearly anything of GT, and I have MgT fresh enough to remember (unless my memory is more flawlty that I can think or accept ) if it was from there.

 

[mike wightman]

LBB4 Mercenary:

dampers units actually may be used to increase or decrease the stability of atomic nuclei. Projecting from two separate stations, the intersection of the two transmitted broadcasts produces a series of nodes and anti-nodes. In the area of the nodes, the strong nuclear force is enhanced, making the nucleus more stable. In the area of the anti-nodes, the strong nuclear force is depressed, making the nucleus much less stable.

Enhance the strong nuclear force and you make fusion easier to achieve, decrease the strong nuclear force and you make fusion more difficult to achieve.

(Coulomb barrier is a result of two positively charged protons repelling each other, the strong nuclear force only kicks in at very close range - think of it as adding Velcro to the ends of two magnets - same pole same pole - , get them close enough and the Velcro sticks despite the magnetic force trying to push them apart)

Conversely enhancing the strong nuclear force will make heavy elements more stable and less likely to undergo nuclear reactions, including fission, while decreasing the strong nuclear force will make nuclear reactions more likely.

 

[Carlobrand]

TNE actually answers this... in a backhanded way. The laser is probably a chem-laser. One shot, the lasing chamber basically would melt really soon after firing due to the chemical reaction heat if not for the fact that it dies a very short while (1e-3 seconds or less) after fusion initiation by a very small, 1mg or less, laser triggered fusion pulse, and the fusion pulse blows the secondary fuelhard enough to trigger it. Sequence: chemlaser, small fusion pop, big fusion boom.

Why would this not be used on the battlefield? because the exhaust gasses are 2000° C+, carcinogenic, corrosive and generally not stuff you want to use anywhere you want to reuse.

Yes, inertial confinement fusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion

A laser pulse is split and timed so it strikes everywhere around the surface of a tiny pellet of fuel at exactly the same instant. The pellet superheats and implodes, the shockwave triggering fusion. They're talking about laser energies in the tens or hundreds of kilojoules. That's up in the range of Trav laser pistols and laser rifles. Potential energy yields are many times greater than that if they can ever figure out how to do it.

However, the fission pit in a small fusion bomb is turning out tens of gigajoules to trigger a fusion blast. So, basically we're needing a deuterium pellet big enough to generate a blast equivalent to a few tons of TNT, and a chemical laser powerful enough to set that pellet off - tens of megajoules? And, it needs to fit into a missile warhead, so no more than about 10 kg for the entire assembly. And, it ideally shouldn't imply other weapons that the game doesn't feature: for example, a mortar round with a chem-laser warhead that would trigger a powerful laser blast through the top deck of a tank, or a chem-laser "bouncing betty" antipersonnel mine that splits the beam in many directions to punch through the body armor of infantry, or a 15cm microfusion artillery round with more punch than the Fusion-Z gun.

I have trouble seeing a chemical process deliver enough energy to do the job and still fit in a 10 kg. package. However, assuming one chooses to go there, one should be prepared for the other technologies implied by it.

 

[Carlobrand]

LBB4 Mercenary:


Enhance the strong nuclear force and you make fusion easier to achieve, decrease the strong nuclear force and you make fusion more difficult to achieve.

(Coulomb barrier is a result of two positively charged protons repelling each other, the strong nuclear force only kicks in at very close range - think of it as adding Velcro to the ends of two magnets - same pole same pole - , get them close enough and the Velcro sticks despite the magnetic force trying to push them apart)

Conversely enhancing the strong nuclear force will make heavy elements more stable and less likely to undergo nuclear reactions, including fission, while decreasing the strong nuclear force will make nuclear reactions more likely.

Which is pretty much what I was thinking. Nuclear binding energy is derived from the strong nuclear force: altering the force makes a nucleus either more or less likely to fission. There's a nucleus size below iron where fissioning the nucleus takes energy and fusing two together gives off energy. The question is whether altering the strong nuclear force will make two nuclei either less or more likely to fuse, or whether - having overcome the coulomb barrier and slammed into each other - they'll fuse anyway but release less or more energy in the process. We're raising or lowering the force; we're not eliminating it altogether (at least not until we progress to disintegrators). In the former case, the damper prevents a fusion reactor from working. In the latter case, the reactor works but produces less energy than it normally would. Chopping a warship's reactor output by 10 or 20 percent isn't going to do more than take a few weapons off-line, but chopping the typical 1G/jump-1 freighter's output might be enough to deprive the maneuver drive of the energy it needs to operate; wouldn't shut down the power plant entirely, though.

I don't know which view they took for the Guilded Lilly thing.

 

[GypsyComet]

Chopping a warship's reactor output by 10 or 20 percent isn't going to do more than take a few weapons off-line, but chopping the typical 1G/jump-1 freighter's output might be enough to deprive the maneuver drive of the energy it needs to operate; wouldn't shut down the power plant entirely, though.

I don't know which view they took for the Guilded Lilly thing.

On a civilian ship the drives are the hungriest components to feed. TNE was the "reaction mass edition", pulling maneuver fuel for the HEPlaR drive through the power plant's cycle to generate a steady high-energy plasma jet. TNE also did a partial reality check on power plant outputs, adjusting the incandescent bulkhead power of MT downward by a bit over one order of magnitude. A nuclear damper is probably messing with both the power plant and the HEPlaR.

 

[aramis]

TNE also did a partial reality check on power plant outputs, adjusting the incandescent bulkhead power of MT downward by a bit over one order of magnitude.

Wrong. It upped the plant fuel efficiency from weekly to annual (but using the exact same numbers per unit time), and had exactly the same power outputs per ton. The same power output rates as striker, too.

 

[Ulsyus]

Originally Posted by Carlobrand:
Also, while SOM mentions laser-detonated nukes, I can't find any mention of them elsewhere in MT. There's nothing on them in the combat rules. Where do we get the information that they're available at TL13?

That's a good question... Frankly, I said it from my memory, being almost sure to have read it somewhere, but I cannot find now the reference. I might be worng (forgive me if so) or there can be other references to it that I cannot find now (ot I might have assumed it from the +1 to UPP rate TL 13 gives to missile turrets).

I recall these making their first appearance in TNE, which was released after 2300AD. The latter is, I believe, where detonation laser missiles made their first GDW appearance, and given the direction TNE went in (tech-wise) it was a logical move to include them at that point. As a concept they seem to make more sense than a missile in space combat that requires a direct hit or very very near miss to do damage.

 

[McPerth]

I recall these making their first appearance in TNE, which was released after 2300AD. The latter is, I believe, where detonation laser missiles made their first GDW appearance, and given the direction TNE went in (tech-wise) it was a logical move to include them at that point. As a concept they seem to make more sense than a missile in space combat that requires a direct hit or very very near miss to do damage.

I'm afraid you might have missuderstood the concept here. We're not talking about detonation lasers (nuclear explosions focused as lasers, gamma rays or ay other marming beam), but about using a laser (instead of a fission device) to trigger a fusion reaction for a fusion bomb.

 

[GypsyComet]

Wrong. It upped the plant fuel efficiency from weekly to annual (but using the exact same numbers per unit time), and had exactly the same power outputs per ton. The same power output rates as striker, too.

I meant "requirements". Typing late again. The energy weapons of MT were pulling so much power that just the transmission lines needed to be super science (or 3m across). Never mind the weapons themselves. TNE knocked that down by about a factor of 20, on average, and made the turret installations larger.

This means that powerplants can still generate a lot of heat, but most of the waste heat is headed out the back end with the reaction mass. The effect on the fuel tanks is the same: you have to stop for gas on every world and possibly get into trouble.

The other thing that TNE ships required for landing was Contra-Grav, the system that allowed a 1G ship to take off from heavy worlds. Without it a ship could empty its reaction tanks just getting to orbit, and it is, IIRC, a power hog when in use. The effects of a nuclear damper on such a set up are probably going to keep a TNE ship on the ground. A tail-sitter might try to take off, but a non-aeroform belly-sitter like the Lily Marlene needs CG.

 

[GypsyComet]

I'm afraid you might have missuderstood the concept here. We're not talking about detonation lasers (nuclear explosions focused as lasers, gamma rays or ay other marming beam), but about using a laser (instead of a fission device) to trigger a fusion reaction for a fusión bomb.

As in:
Bomb-pumped lasers (TNE and 2300AD missiles) use a bomb to power short laser bursts.
Laser-ignited Fusion is the other way around, using a timed laser to start a fusion process.

That said, a bomb-pumped laser could have been ignited by a laser in the first place.

But, we seem to have wandered off topic quite a bit.

 

[Frankymole]

Two points here:

Jewell is TL 12. As such, a TL 14 Zhodani nuke making it past its dampers it's not so surprising, IMHO.

Though not reflected on the rules, MT:SOM¹, when describing the nuclear dampers (page 52) says: While dampers are effective against fission weapons and fusion weapons that emply fission triggers, nuclear dampers are uselessagainst laser-detonated fusion warheads. Laser detoanted fusión warheads are TL 13, so it's quite likely the Zhodani used them.

Why couldn't Zho spies have sabotaged the dampers?

 

[Shadowfax]

Zho nukes

Sorry, wasn't on for a while.

Assuming that this alleged atrocity actually did happen, just for the sake of argument, couple of thoughts here:
1.) Zhos and Imps use nukes in war vs. each other, like kids eat candies! I don't think there is any qualms about that in an all out war like the 5th Frontier War. Sure both sides will finger-point at the other, but both are going to do it.
2.)The Imperial rules of war are just that (Imperial). The don't apply to when the chavl' hits the fan. The imperial rules of war are just to keep all the little brush-fire wars within the Imperium from getting nasty and harming Imperial property. Every now and then a merc company working for a Duke somewhere probably gets a sanction to drop one.
3.) Whoever said that they would blow up the starport that they wanted to take is right except:
-Maybe Jewel was so heavily defended (Like Efate) that they had to bomb it.
-Maybe they used a neutron bomb
-Even if they nuked the place, they could clean it up with nuclear dampers couldn't they?
4.) Normally the Zhos wouldn't do this, but I kind of think that in an all out war they would and they wouldn't have an issue with it. After-all, they are all deviant barbarians, nuking the place from orbit is the only way to get them all.