Amenities and Perks...

[rancke]

I would tend to assume, perhaps my err in doing such, that vessels catering specifically to ultra-high passage travelers would have onboard hydroponic-based gardens to provide the literal freshest fruits and vegetables possible.

Why bother when TL15 storage boxes keep produce fresh for a month? Blind-testing has shown that no one can tell the difference.

(NB: This is not canonical technology because Traveller does not, AFASK, deal with food preservation techniques past TL7, but IMO it (or something similar) ought to be canonical).


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

It seems most unlikely to me that food preservation techniques wouldn't continue to improve past TL 7. It seems to me that the lack of any improvement must be an oversight. ...

Well, let's explore that a bit and see where that takes us. On other subjects we've preferred to have a bit of science behind our far future assumptions - not consistently, and not always possible, but it seems to be the preference.

Let's start with freezing reduces the quality of many foods. Can we irradiate foods and keep them at the same level of quality, or will they wilt or otherwise suffer quality declines just as a result of time and chemical changes? I don't know much about irradiating foods. What other processes might be used to keep the food to the kind of quality that a good chef would respect? What speculative science are we drawing on to postulate improved far future food preservation techniques?

Reheating is often a problem too, though it depends on the food (I actually prefer leftover spaghetti over fresh-made). Modern microwaves are nice but a bit brute force - I get stuff fried on the outside and cold on the inside. A truly advanced microwave might use infrared sensors and more finely controlled microwave emitters to achieve more even heating. However, some foods will invariably lose additional moisture in the reheating, losing some quality in the process. Traditional cookery says get the food up to a germ-killing temp, but if you can eliminate the germ angle then it may be sufficient to bring it to palatable temps and find ways to minimize moisture loss. Still, there are foods that handle twice-heating quite well and others that suffer rather badly when you do it.

I'm looking at this, and it's occurring to me that there's a lot of effort here when I could just pick up a week's supply of fresh food before I leave port. It's not like I'm in an airplane with a galley the size of a broom closet - I've got decent room aboard for a proper galley and pantry. Time seems to be my only lack, and that only on the little tramp merchants. Then it occurs to me that there are some ports where that might be more difficult than others - or I might be limited to local foods that I'm not real familiar with and might want some more familiar fare, even if it's not fresh.

... The food fed to high passengers cost exactly the same as the food fed to middle passengers (exact same life support cost), so presumably there's no difference in quality. ...

Uh oh, I've been feeding the middle passage folk Hungry-man dinners to ease the workload on the steward. Hope nobody complains.

 

[rancke]

I'm looking at this, and it's occurring to me that there's a lot of effort here when I could just pick up a week's supply of fresh food before I leave port. It's not like I'm in an airplane with a galley the size of a broom closet - I've got decent room aboard for a proper galley and pantry.

That could work too.

Time seems to be my only lack, and that only on the little tramp merchants. Then it occurs to me that there are some ports where that might be more difficult than others - or I might be limited to local foods that I'm not real familiar with and might want some more familiar fare, even if it's not fresh.

If you're a regular passenger liner catering to discerning high class passengers, you've worked out some way to get the food you need delivered where and when you need it delivered. If you're a tramp merchant, any discerning high class passenger who expects high class cuisine on your ship would be laughed out of court if he complained about the quality of the food.

Uh oh, I've been feeding the middle passage folk Hungry-man dinners to ease the workload on the steward. Hope nobody complains.

What I feel is missing in the life support rules is four or five different levels of life support depending on the financial and social status of the supportee, e.g. survival, frugal, average, good, excellent. No one spends as little as mere survival unless forced by severe lack of funds. PCs may use frugal and up as a roleplaying choice. Middle passengers expect average food, high passengers expect good food (whether they get it on tramp ships is another question). And so on and so forth.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I would tend to assume, perhaps my err in doing such, that vessels catering specifically to ultra-high passage travelers would have onboard hydroponic-based gardens to provide the literal freshest fruits and vegetables possible.

Those guys are paying WELL more than the KCr10 for a single jump...

 

[SanDragon]

For me, travelling in style won't be in some damned airplane.

It'll be on a cruise ship.

You're in jump space for a week for pete's sake...

 

[mike wightman]

Are you suggesting that food preparation be on the Tech Level chart?

Yes, this would be a good idea.

Being able to preserve food extends your logistic train. Just look at the problems early trans-oceanic exploration had to overcome.

Drying food, salting food, pickling food (in vinegar or alcohol) - I wonder when this stuff was invented?

 

[mike wightman]

To preserve fresh food:
irradiate it to kill microbes
package it to prevent recontamination (note that many red meats are packaged in an oxygen rich atmosphere to maintain the colour of the meat - otherwise vacuum pack or use inert gas atmosphere depending on food type)
refrigerate but don't freeze


Baking is easy enough from dry ingredients so fresh breads and pastries are likely to be common place.

For really fresh meat stick your animals in cold berths and slaughter as required.

 

[Carlobrand]

...If you're a regular passenger liner catering to discerning high class passengers, you've worked out some way to get the food you need delivered where and when you need it delivered. If you're a tramp merchant, any discerning high class passenger who expects high class cuisine on your ship would be laughed out of court if he complained about the quality of the food. ...

Good point, "travelling in style" probably does not include the typical free trader. The folk that want the fully staffed dining compartment and the sauna are probably not going to think of him first; he tends to be the last resort for people who didn't have the staff or the opportunity to book far enough ahead to get a better flight, or who are going someplace the big liners can't be bothered to go to.

...What I feel is missing in the life support rules is four or five different levels of life support depending on the financial and social status of the supportee, e.g. survival, frugal, average, good, excellent. No one spends as little as mere survival unless forced by severe lack of funds. PCs may use frugal and up as a roleplaying choice. Middle passengers expect average food, high passengers expect good food (whether they get it on tramp ships is another question). And so on and so forth. ...

Would not be hard to come up with something like that for an IMTU variant. "Good" food is Cr200 a month normally; we can assume maybe Cr50 of the life support charge is food for the pantry. Maybe we could give a +1 bonus on the passenger roll if the captain's willing to spend another Cr100 per passenger for "High Living" foods - some decent wine, maybe lamb and duck to supplement the beef and chicken, some kiwi fruit for the breakfast buffet. He still can't offer the amenities a full-size liner could, but he might draw someone away from a competing free trader.

What would also be useful is a robo-stove.

 

[rancke]

Would not be hard to come up with something like that for an IMTU variant.

Not hard at all, but I feel that this is such a fundamental aspect of life that it really ought to be in the basic rules.


Hans

 

[Reban]

Let's start with freezing reduces the quality of many foods. Can we irradiate foods and keep them at the same level of quality, or will they wilt or otherwise suffer quality declines just as a result of time and chemical changes? I don't know much about irradiating foods. What other processes might be used to keep the food to the kind of quality that a good chef would respect? What speculative science are we drawing on to postulate improved far future food preservation techniques?

What springs to mind when you say freezing reduces quality is that that probably doesn't (or shouldn't) hold true for cold berth and low berth technology.

If you put fruit, veg or meat in a berth it should come out relatively okay compared to normal freezing. Of course there might be a one in ten chance of spoilage. If you can't do this successfully for food how can you do it for living beings?

Oh and aren't livestock berths canonical? Bring a steer and make sure the steward has skills in butchery and barbecue operation, but be careful not to let it loose mid jump!

 

[flykiller]

What would also be useful is a robo-stove.

r2d2 with a hibachi hat?

 

[Carlobrand]

What springs to mind when you say freezing reduces quality is that that probably doesn't (or shouldn't) hold true for cold berth and low berth technology. ...

Well, at the moment freezing reduces the quality of the person too. Ice expands and ruptures cells. You can extend life by holding a person close to freezing. You can kill him good and dead by taking him past that point and holding him there long enough. That same ice expanding business is part of what makes some frozen foods not as crisp and yummy as their fresh-from-the-farm siblings. Seems to be mostly a fruit-and-veggie thing, but I'm not a connoisseur; I don't know if a food expert would be able to tell if his meat was fresh or frozen.

Our current efforts to correct that low berth problem come down to finding some kind of "antifreeze" that keeps water from doing that - that and mastering the hibernation trick, which we've got some interesting progress on but I wouldn't bet my life on unless I really had no other choice.

That being said, while I don't see any reason any mammal couldn't be low-berthed, and maybe the chemicals would work on fish and poultry as well, to do it for a head of lettuce or a bunch of bananas would be a real trick.

On the other hand, it may be possible to genetically engineer produce variants that have a natural "antifreeze" in their cells that neither affects their flavor nor creates a problem for those who eat it.

 

[pendragonman]

Of course there is the idea that Mike Wightman (sp?) put forth in the Locker thread:

Makers. A fully programmed food maker takes care of this whole issue. Just needs raw materials, something that I am sure can be in nice vac u-seal bags.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Makers. A fully programmed food maker takes care of this whole issue. Just needs raw materials, something that I am sure can be in nice vac u-seal bags.

So basically a 'Replicator'.

 

[rancke]

Of course there is the idea that Mike Wightman (sp?) put forth in the Locker thread:

Makers. A fully programmed food maker takes care of this whole issue. Just needs raw materials, something that I am sure can be in nice vac u-seal bags.

Are replicators available at TL 15, though?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Are replicators available at TL 15, though?


Hans

Not in the Star Trek TNG sense, but ship's fabricators might be.

Actually, a food 3d printer is quite likely an amenity on most ships with 20+ staterooms. An automated sandwich machine, probably also. Run your card, pick a few choices, and 2 min later, sandwich.

Metal and plastic 3d printers, and a small CNC lathe are likely to be aboard most capital ships.

I strongly dislike the idea that you have a full set of such without a machine shop aboard...

 

[pendragonman]

Heck, there is a concrete 3D printer today. Some guy is printing out a small keep with it.

 

[wbyrd]

For trips shorter than a month food storage isn't much of a problem. When I was on my Brother-in-laws work boat most for the food was fresh, and cooked by one of the crew..with a steady supply of snacks and staples.

low temperature coolers, flash pasteurization, and similar preservation to the methods used in long term storage foods would make cry-freezing kind of redundant. A simple near freezing temp cooler, with perhaps inert gas, or vacuum storage to prevent storage would allow a ship to carry almost any normal food for months.


For recreational activities, a large area with no gravity and perhaps some sort of holographic projection system could be used for "swimming" zero gee acrobatics, or presenting holovids would not have to be overly complex, or take up ridiculous amounts of space.

And don't forget the holo-skeet, or competitive hologun combat games....

 

[SpaceBadger]

Just skimming so may have missed it, but at what TL do we get the Larry Niven-esque Stasis Box? Solves all food freshness problems, and also replaces cold sleep for low berths - IIRC, time just doesn't pass inside the stasis box, so whatever is inside pops out with no time having passed since you put it in there.

 

[rancke]

Just skimming so may have missed it, but at what TL do we get the Larry Niven-esque Stasis Box? Solves all food freshness problems, and also replaces cold sleep for low berths - IIRC, time just doesn't pass inside the stasis box, so whatever is inside pops out with no time having passed since you put it in there.

They're Ancient technology. And IMO a very good thing too. Stasis fields are potentially just too darn useful to be mundane technology in any campaign setting that I'm going to let a bunch of player characters loose on.


Hans