Anyone know the name of the Terran starship that jumped to Barnards Star in 2096?
- Thread starter Michael Taylor
- Start date
It's only $20...? If you're that interested, surely you can rustle up the money? Could you just not drink (insert favourite beverage here) for a week or something?
[/QB][/QUOTE]Sorry, not possible as there is no "favorite drink" or other extras with a young babe, save upgrading my Traveller collection every six months. Simple home cooked meals, water, milk juice are the joys of a simple life. The money is that tight.
Therefore, maybe we launch something of our own on these boards. True Jon & co. could completely ignore it but at least, we could have some fun filling the details.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Ahhh... That's a shame.
I wonder how it'll fit in canon - GT is an "alternate universe" but presumably IW won't be?
Theophilus
SOC-13
OFf list for a while, came back and hear about GT:IW!
Checked SJgames web site. couldn't find interstellar wars listed.
Info please?
Checked SJgames web site. couldn't find interstellar wars listed.
Info please?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
GT Interstellar Wars is in playtest now.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archives.html?y=2004&m=October&d=15
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archives.html?y=2004&m=October&d=15
Malenfant spewed:
"I would imagine that the other nations on Earth weren't particularly grateful to the Americans for starting a war with a huge interstellar empire. Personally, I think the US would have taken a major fall in space after that as a result, simply because the rest of the planet didn't want them to screw things up even more."
Dr. Ganymede,
My, my, my... I waddle off for a few months, return, and find you up to your usual Yankee-phobic shenanigans. You naughty little boy you!
Some things never change it seems. I noticed that you've covered yourself in your usual glory in the TNE/Nilsen thread too. Your posting habits haven't changed one whit since your quitting the JTAS Boards in a mighty sulking tizzy. Like Mr. Berry's query after your whining pout of a resignation from JTAS I just have to ask - Is it hard typing with one arm thrown across your eyes?
I'm involved in the GT:IW playtest and can say no more than this - The story of the First Interstellar War is much nuanced than either you can imagine or will deign to accept. Suffice it to say, those dastardly Yankees didn't drag poor old Earth into a war after all.
Of course, it could be just a big cover-up. We nasty Americans are writing the book after all!
Sincerely,
Larsen
P.S. StarLeaper One used the original Terran jump drive which was a 'fuel hog'. That is why they could not simply carry enough fuel for consecutive one parsec hops on the trip to Barnard.
"I would imagine that the other nations on Earth weren't particularly grateful to the Americans for starting a war with a huge interstellar empire. Personally, I think the US would have taken a major fall in space after that as a result, simply because the rest of the planet didn't want them to screw things up even more."
Dr. Ganymede,
My, my, my... I waddle off for a few months, return, and find you up to your usual Yankee-phobic shenanigans. You naughty little boy you!
Some things never change it seems. I noticed that you've covered yourself in your usual glory in the TNE/Nilsen thread too. Your posting habits haven't changed one whit since your quitting the JTAS Boards in a mighty sulking tizzy. Like Mr. Berry's query after your whining pout of a resignation from JTAS I just have to ask - Is it hard typing with one arm thrown across your eyes?
I'm involved in the GT:IW playtest and can say no more than this - The story of the First Interstellar War is much nuanced than either you can imagine or will deign to accept. Suffice it to say, those dastardly Yankees didn't drag poor old Earth into a war after all.
Of course, it could be just a big cover-up. We nasty Americans are writing the book after all!
Sincerely,
Larsen
P.S. StarLeaper One used the original Terran jump drive which was a 'fuel hog'. That is why they could not simply carry enough fuel for consecutive one parsec hops on the trip to Barnard.
RandyT0001
SOC-13
Every good, righteous, and loyal Solomani knows what really occurred at Bernard.
The Vilani "convoy" was actually a group of privateers, operating under a letter of marque from the Vilani Empire, who had raided the Terran base for it's supplies of SolaCola syrup concentrate. The Terran base fired upon the fleeing pirates, destroying one ship and crippling another. The last two pirates though damaged did manage to return to Vilani space and falsely reported that they had been attacked without provacation. When the Vilani did nothing to capture and prosecute these pirates the Terrans declared war.
All other 'historical' accounts of the events leading to the start of the Interstellar Wars are purely Vilani propaganda.
The Vilani "convoy" was actually a group of privateers, operating under a letter of marque from the Vilani Empire, who had raided the Terran base for it's supplies of SolaCola syrup concentrate. The Terran base fired upon the fleeing pirates, destroying one ship and crippling another. The last two pirates though damaged did manage to return to Vilani space and falsely reported that they had been attacked without provacation. When the Vilani did nothing to capture and prosecute these pirates the Terrans declared war.
All other 'historical' accounts of the events leading to the start of the Interstellar Wars are purely Vilani propaganda.
M
Malenfant
Guest
No, I'm just going by what was in Rim of Fire, actually - and what was discussed on the IW board when I was at JTAS. Plus, it's not entirely unreasonable to think, given that information, that the other nations of Earth were too happy at being dragged into an interstellar war with the first alien race they contact.
As for the rest of your post, that attack was completely unecessary, though your opinion of me or of what I say is utterly irrelevant to me. But then I suspect you're just trolling because you think I'm Satan Incarnate for liking the Transhuman Space setting. How very mature of you.
You don't like me Larsen? That's fine, I don't like you either. So why don't we nip this in the bud before it starts and just agree to ignore eachother from now on, if you must linger here?
Typical Larsen really. I haven't missed you one bit.
Malenfant whined:
"No, I'm just going by what was in Rim of Fire, actually - and what was discussed on the IW board when I was at JTAS."
My dear Doctor,
GT:IW is also going by what was written in RoF and what was discussed on the IW Board and - gasp - it is nothing like the anti-American vitriol you constantly spout.
"Plus, it's not entirely unreasonable to think, given that information, that the other nations of Earth were too happy at being dragged into an interstellar war with the first alien race they contact."
Seeing as you aren't involved in the playtest AND know nothing of the Terran political situation at the time of the incident, you're doing nothing but making guesses with no basis in fact. Guesses laced with your usual knee-jerk Yankee-phobia.
"As for the rest of your post, that attack was completely unecessary, though your opinion of me or of what I say is utterly irrelevant to me."
I was trolling because you're a naughty little boy who pitches an anti-American hissy fit whenever you're given the chance. You're also an utter chump, an educated one, but a chump nonetheless.
"You don't like me Larsen? That's fine, I don't like you either. So why don't we nip this in the bud before it starts..."
Yes, let us nip it all in the bud. I've reported your Yankee-bashing post to the moderators, just as others reported your various personal attacks in the TNE/Nilsen post to the moderators. Odd isn't it? How you're always involved in these little problems? I suspect it's an American plot against you.
So, you've got a hard-on for America. Perhaps we didn't give you a job, maybe we stole your girlfriend, or maybe one of us pushed your face through the back of your head when you mouthed off. Whatever your twisted reason is, it's fine and your welcome to it. Do us all a favor though, don't post it here and keep you bitching to yourself. You'd be the first to denounce such attacks on any other nation but you're the first to make them on the US.
Typical Malenfant really. Funny how you propose a truce in your next to last paragraph and then ignore your own suggestion and end with an insult. Typical childish behavior from the chump whose knickname means 'Bad Child'.
Watch your typing 'Bad Child' because the next time you puke and mewl about America I'll report you to Hunter. And the next time, and the next time, and the next time, until your childish ass is thrown out of here. Then we'll all have ice cream and cake.
Enjoy your weekend.
Very sincerely,
Larsen
"No, I'm just going by what was in Rim of Fire, actually - and what was discussed on the IW board when I was at JTAS."
My dear Doctor,
GT:IW is also going by what was written in RoF and what was discussed on the IW Board and - gasp - it is nothing like the anti-American vitriol you constantly spout.
"Plus, it's not entirely unreasonable to think, given that information, that the other nations of Earth were too happy at being dragged into an interstellar war with the first alien race they contact."
Seeing as you aren't involved in the playtest AND know nothing of the Terran political situation at the time of the incident, you're doing nothing but making guesses with no basis in fact. Guesses laced with your usual knee-jerk Yankee-phobia.
"As for the rest of your post, that attack was completely unecessary, though your opinion of me or of what I say is utterly irrelevant to me."
I was trolling because you're a naughty little boy who pitches an anti-American hissy fit whenever you're given the chance. You're also an utter chump, an educated one, but a chump nonetheless.
"You don't like me Larsen? That's fine, I don't like you either. So why don't we nip this in the bud before it starts..."
Yes, let us nip it all in the bud. I've reported your Yankee-bashing post to the moderators, just as others reported your various personal attacks in the TNE/Nilsen post to the moderators. Odd isn't it? How you're always involved in these little problems? I suspect it's an American plot against you.
So, you've got a hard-on for America. Perhaps we didn't give you a job, maybe we stole your girlfriend, or maybe one of us pushed your face through the back of your head when you mouthed off. Whatever your twisted reason is, it's fine and your welcome to it. Do us all a favor though, don't post it here and keep you bitching to yourself. You'd be the first to denounce such attacks on any other nation but you're the first to make them on the US.
Typical Malenfant really. Funny how you propose a truce in your next to last paragraph and then ignore your own suggestion and end with an insult. Typical childish behavior from the chump whose knickname means 'Bad Child'.
Watch your typing 'Bad Child' because the next time you puke and mewl about America I'll report you to Hunter. And the next time, and the next time, and the next time, until your childish ass is thrown out of here. Then we'll all have ice cream and cake.
Enjoy your weekend.
Very sincerely,
Larsen
M
Malenfant
Guest
Um. You're really blowing this entirely out of proportion, Larsen.
But hey, thank you for admitting to deliberate trolling. I should also thank you for throwing out more personal attacks on me in one post than I've ever done to anyone else. That should give Hunter less trouble deciding to toss you off the board.
And if you think that saying "I didn't miss you" is an insult, your skin is far too thin for you to be hanging around on a discussion board.
EDIT: Oh, by the way, I haven't gone on an anti-american bender here for ages. In fact, I've stayed well out of the politics board since Hunter set it up. (though I did go see Team America today, and laughed my head off at it. Does that count?)
But hey, thank you for admitting to deliberate trolling. I should also thank you for throwing out more personal attacks on me in one post than I've ever done to anyone else. That should give Hunter less trouble deciding to toss you off the board.
And if you think that saying "I didn't miss you" is an insult, your skin is far too thin for you to be hanging around on a discussion board.
EDIT: Oh, by the way, I haven't gone on an anti-american bender here for ages. In fact, I've stayed well out of the politics board since Hunter set it up. (though I did go see Team America today, and laughed my head off at it. Does that count?)
Fuel hog! Of course, that explains everything! Like why these two fog-heads start bickering in public instead of taking the (relatively) mature route and keeping it to themselves.
I bet the Starleaper 1 used the CT formula (10% per J) whereas the Vilani used the formula used in all the other pubs (5% per J). That's surely what happened!
I bet the Starleaper 1 used the CT formula (10% per J) whereas the Vilani used the formula used in all the other pubs (5% per J). That's surely what happened!
M
Malenfant
Guest
Hey, this thread was perfectly fine and civil before Larsen came on. I'm doing my damnedest NOT to bicker with him (I'm not even provoking him. I have absolutely no clue why he's decided to attack me like this out of the blue). Again, I wish this board had an "ignore list" feature like rpgnet does so people could just not read posts from users who get under their skins.
Meanwhile, to get back on topic, Rim of Fire states:
It's also not unreasonable to assume that a lot of people on Earth wouldn't have been too happy to go toe to toe with an interstellar empire. Yes, the UN were all scared and angry at the presence of the Vilani on their doorstep, but they're not stupid.
There is also the possibility that the Americans didn't tell the real story to the UN about what happened at Barnard. Perhaps the reaction would have happened anyway, but it all depends on how it's presented. If they said "there's someone else that looks like us out there, and eventually they're gonna invade Earth! We have to get ready and strike first!!" then that would be more likely to provoke the response of fear and anger stated in the book.
If on the other hand they had said "there's someone else that looks like us out there, but they seem to be content to sit in Barnard and let us do what we like so maybe we shouldn't bug them" then that would have provoked a totally different response.
Most likely there was a whole "hawks and doves" argument going on behind the scenes, but it seems the hawks won. It's not like there's no historical precedent for this sort of thing, after all. And I could care less if Larsen thinks I'm "attacking America" there - it should be obvious that I'm not.
After the first "war" (really, just a couple of battles) ended, the Terrans realised they couldn't take on the Imperium as individual nations. I still think it's perfectly reasonable to expect some kind of backlash at home against the US for starting the war. Or perhaps by then the hawks had really won out and had persuaded (or coerced, or blackmailed) the other world governments to unite under one banner. Either way, the result was a unification of earth's governments.
What happened next is something that makes no sense to me. Despite having won the Barnard system, negotiated a perfectly good ceasefire, and made a promise to stay out of Imperial space, the Terrans actually barged back in to provoke another war (with J2 ships this time).
The only conclusion I can draw is that either they were really, REALLY overconfident or they were really, REALLY stupid, or they had gone completely mad! But for whatever reason, that's how it turned out. I shrug.
Now, if all that's changed in the IW book, then I don't know about it. But based on what's in RoF I don't think that's an unreasonable interpolation of what might have been going on in the background.
Had the Terrans taken a "softly softly" approach, rather than a "milk the Vilani for all they're worth and prepare for the inevitable fight" approach, things might have turned out very different - perhaps the Terrans would have been allowed to expand to rimward and the two states might have co-existed peacefully, at least for a while. But that's for an ATU.
Meanwhile, to get back on topic, Rim of Fire states:
It's not hard to see how I come to my conclusions. It seems pretty clear from this and other tracts around it that the Vilani tolerated the Terrans til they got too cocky and pushed their luck. There's no indication in RoF that this sequence of events isn't what actually happened (i.e., there's no sense of "this is the view of one side only).
It's also not unreasonable to assume that a lot of people on Earth wouldn't have been too happy to go toe to toe with an interstellar empire. Yes, the UN were all scared and angry at the presence of the Vilani on their doorstep, but they're not stupid.
There is also the possibility that the Americans didn't tell the real story to the UN about what happened at Barnard. Perhaps the reaction would have happened anyway, but it all depends on how it's presented. If they said "there's someone else that looks like us out there, and eventually they're gonna invade Earth! We have to get ready and strike first!!" then that would be more likely to provoke the response of fear and anger stated in the book.
If on the other hand they had said "there's someone else that looks like us out there, but they seem to be content to sit in Barnard and let us do what we like so maybe we shouldn't bug them" then that would have provoked a totally different response.
Most likely there was a whole "hawks and doves" argument going on behind the scenes, but it seems the hawks won. It's not like there's no historical precedent for this sort of thing, after all. And I could care less if Larsen thinks I'm "attacking America" there - it should be obvious that I'm not.
After the first "war" (really, just a couple of battles) ended, the Terrans realised they couldn't take on the Imperium as individual nations. I still think it's perfectly reasonable to expect some kind of backlash at home against the US for starting the war. Or perhaps by then the hawks had really won out and had persuaded (or coerced, or blackmailed) the other world governments to unite under one banner. Either way, the result was a unification of earth's governments.
What happened next is something that makes no sense to me. Despite having won the Barnard system, negotiated a perfectly good ceasefire, and made a promise to stay out of Imperial space, the Terrans actually barged back in to provoke another war (with J2 ships this time).
I'm boggled by the stupidity and arrogance of this. How the hell do the Terrans need to find room for expansion when they've got everything to Rimward to expand into?! There are thirteen systems unclaimed by the First Imperium that were reachable by J2 to rimward of Terra, and many more beyond that if they did a deep space jump to get to them. The Vilani certainly had no short-term intention of colonising that space - the Imperium had long since stopped expanding. So why then did the Terrans decide to head in entirely the opposite direction, back into the fray with a gigantic interstellar empire that they'd just made peace with?!
The only conclusion I can draw is that either they were really, REALLY overconfident or they were really, REALLY stupid, or they had gone completely mad! But for whatever reason, that's how it turned out. I shrug.
Now, if all that's changed in the IW book, then I don't know about it. But based on what's in RoF I don't think that's an unreasonable interpolation of what might have been going on in the background.
Had the Terrans taken a "softly softly" approach, rather than a "milk the Vilani for all they're worth and prepare for the inevitable fight" approach, things might have turned out very different - perhaps the Terrans would have been allowed to expand to rimward and the two states might have co-existed peacefully, at least for a while. But that's for an ATU.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
And I, once again, will state that I wish it did not (although I admit that popular opinion is against me on this one, even the Admins have come out in favor of activating such a feature if ever implemented for our forum software).Originally posted by Malenfant:
Again, I wish this board had an "ignore list" feature like rpgnet does so people could just not read posts from users who get under their skins.
Mal, just remember, that when you can Ignore someone programmatically, you've no way of knowing what's been said in response to your statements. Other's come along, with no ignore lists, and read those unrebutted responses . . .
<snip>
There's no indication in RoF that this sequence of events isn't what actually happened (i.e., there's no sense of "this is the view of one side only).
<snip>
There is also the possibility that the Americans didn't tell the real story to the UN about what happened at Barnard.
</font>[/QUOTE]RoF does not say the first, as you point out.
But does RoF actually state the second, as you suggest might be possible?
Basically, in the first breath, the factual statements of RoF are relied upon. And then in the second, we are allowed to read between the lines. If I can read between the lines, I can read that the first statement was a "frame" of an America out-voted by the UN (which is much more powerful at this fictional point in time than it is today).
I'm boggled by the stupidity and arrogance of this.Originally posted by Malenfant:
What happened next is something that makes no sense to me. Despite having won the Barnard system, negotiated a perfectly good ceasefire, and made a promise to stay out of Imperial space, the Terrans actually barged back in to provoke another war (with J2 ships this time).
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Terrans did not meekly avoid further confrontation. The Terrans still felt fenced in by Vilani control of nearby space and were willing to defy the Imperium in order to find room for expansion.
</font>[/QUOTE]I'm oft-boggled by governmental arrogance and stupidity, too.
Poor phrasing by RoF's author? Or, perhaps, the Terran's didn't know just how far the 1st Imp really extended. Maybe they did think they were surrounded.
The Terrans had no way of knowing that
The Terrans had no way of knowing such a thing, but in any event, the 1st Imp hadn't stopped expanding. As I read it, it's expansion was glacial. That tiny expansion is what led them so close to Terra, eventually, over the course of centuries.
For the reasons outlined above. Their perception of the situation was based on limited and mostly inaccurate information. I'm sure they trusted little to nothing they were told of interstellar society and affairs, and given that the Vilani were probably not too forthcomming almost certainly didn't help matters.
Next Quote added by RainOfSteel:
End of Quote added by RainOfSteel:
Yes, it is one possible interpretation. But interpretation is what it is.
M
Malenfant
Guest
No, it doesn't, which is why I said "there is the possibility...". But to make it clear - it doesn't say anything about what was actually said. It is possible that the US lied - or, more likely, didn't tell the entire story - about what they found at Barnard. It is also possible that they didn't. But I like looking at things from different angles - things are rarely so black and white, even in fiction - and it becomes more interesting to ask if the Americans distorted the facts of what they found at Barnard.
You only have to look at the news - not just from today, but from a decade ago, or two decades ago, and from any nation, not just the US - to know that this happens all the time. Why should the future - even a fictional one - be any different?
Imagine a documentary being made between the first and second IWs. It's got great potential as a story, and there are lots of questions to ask - what really happened at Barnard? What did StarLeaper One find there? Is the official story of an alien base populated by non-Terran humans true? What even IS the official story? Heck (as you suggest), was it the UN that did the lying? Why? etc...
Humanity has been looking for alien contact for centuries. In the 16 years between first contact and the start of the the first IW, how did that outlook swing so radically from wanting someone to share knowledge and learn from and explore the universe with to wanting to arm themselves to the teeth and poke at this vast alien empire? I'm not seeing how saying "We found an alien mining outpost populated by humans not from Earth on a planet about 2 parsecs away which is the border of an alien empire" is going to suddenly swing everyone on Earth into a state of "fear and anger". Up til the start of the first IW, the Vilani didn't even DO anything to threaten the Terrans - they just patted them on the head and let them play in their backyard.
Hence why I wonder what the Americans told the UNSCA when they returned from Barnard.
Sure, that's another way to see it. Personally I think both are worth exploring. After all, the Americans tell the UNSCA, but then they're the ones that tell the world. What if they distorted the report of the encounter, truthfully reported by the Americans? But at this point, why would they do that? Why do they see the Vilani as such a major threat already, when they haven't even talked directly to them or even met them? Is it all just down to ignorant fear and paranoia?
(BTW, anything I say on this topic (that I don't directly quote from a book) is nothing more than an interpretation, and it certainly isn't the only possible one.
)TheDS exclaimed: "Fuel hog! Of course, that explains everything!"
"I bet the Starleaper 1 used the CT formula (10% per J) whereas the Vilani used the formula used in all the other pubs (5% per J). That's surely what happened!"
Mr. TheDS,
It gets worse, StarLeaper One had to use even more fuel than that! So much so that she could just carry a enough for two 1 parsec hops.
I wonder if the crew knicknamed her "Miss Piggy"?
Sincerely,
Larsen
"I bet the Starleaper 1 used the CT formula (10% per J) whereas the Vilani used the formula used in all the other pubs (5% per J). That's surely what happened!"
Mr. TheDS,
It gets worse, StarLeaper One had to use even more fuel than that! So much so that she could just carry a enough for two 1 parsec hops.
I wonder if the crew knicknamed her "Miss Piggy"?
Sincerely,
Larsen
Perhaps the Terrans advanced Coreward to create a "sphere", a zone of safety between themselves and the "passive aggressive" star empire. Perhaps the human governments of Earth did not know how stagnant the Viliani rule was, how slowly the Empire was advancing across space, or how apathetic the citizens and rulers of that star empire really were. But, they did know that where-ever the Terran starships seemed to go, there were Viliani already there.........
Theophilus
SOC-13
I agree. If I only had J1, and the Vilani had J-2 I'd have to go on the offensive, just to get some defense in depth.
Strike hard, get some breathing space, negotiate.
sounds reasonable.
Strike hard, get some breathing space, negotiate.
sounds reasonable.
M
Malenfant
Guest
So, say you have a culture that is technologically (and possibly socially) primitive, that finds itself located near a more advanced, powerful culture. Then say that the more primitive cultre perceives the more advanced one as a threat. Now, you're suggesting it's reasonable that the more primitive culture should strike hard at the more advanced, powerful one to get some "breathing space", and then to negotiate?
That's interesting. Try looking at the current affairs in the world nowadays with that logic in mind, and take the implications to their logical conclusion. You may be shocked at where it leads you.
Besides, on what basis do they "negotiate" afterwards? What possible leverage does the more primitive culture have on the more advanced one, that could easily - if it so desired or if pushed far enough - destroy it completely?
That's interesting. Try looking at the current affairs in the world nowadays with that logic in mind, and take the implications to their logical conclusion. You may be shocked at where it leads you.
Besides, on what basis do they "negotiate" afterwards? What possible leverage does the more primitive culture have on the more advanced one, that could easily - if it so desired or if pushed far enough - destroy it completely?
You can be sure that either the Terrans believed the threat dire but winnable, or a source of exploitation. An unwinnable defense, they would have left quietly, or a reasonable opponent, they might have tried to negotiate for limited entry.
Most likely, it looked like a moderate threat that could be exploited, and so it was. The UN of 2096 is vastly different from the one of today. Today's UN couldn't resolve to take a leak in a public restroom, so by 2096, if they decide to make war on other planets, well, they're not anything we've seen yet. But the need to exploit others will always be a major urge to those in position to do it.
Most likely, it looked like a moderate threat that could be exploited, and so it was. The UN of 2096 is vastly different from the one of today. Today's UN couldn't resolve to take a leak in a public restroom, so by 2096, if they decide to make war on other planets, well, they're not anything we've seen yet. But the need to exploit others will always be a major urge to those in position to do it.
