Anyone know the name of the Terran starship that jumped to Barnards Star in 2096?

[TheDS]

Like a TL or two, iirc

 

[mike wightman]

Let's see, the Terrans have just invented the jump1 drive, and so are TL9. The Vilani have had jump2 for a long time, and remain at TL11.

Note that the Vilani TL stagnation is cultural, neither side can jump into empty space but need to follow jump routes, and the Vilani never invented the meson gun.

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
So, say you have a culture that is technologically (and possibly socially) primitive, that finds itself located near a more advanced, powerful culture. Then say that the more primitive cultre perceives the more advanced one as a threat.

TL9 vs. TL11...I'd say calling the Terran's primitives in comparison to the Vilani a little exagerated...especially at that end of the scale. Backwards, yes. Barbarians, yes. Out right primitive...not really. They were both societies used to "modern" technology. At the high end of the tech scale most of the differences as presented seem to be the same things just better and more efficient as the TL goes up. The blatant example is Jump Drive...sure the Vilani may have longer range, but its not like the functioning of it is fundamentaly different at a societal level. Both are spacefaring cultures familiar with the dangers and advantages thereof. Both had guns, theirs were just more effective...

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Now, you're suggesting it's reasonable that the more primitive culture should strike hard at the more advanced, powerful one to get some "breathing space", and then to negotiate?

Reasonable, perhaps not. Possible and perhaps even likely, I would think so. Even if we're supposed to have become cooperative enough to give the UN real strength by the time of contact with the Vilani, I doubt the human race will ever grow out of its ability to behave irrationally and even irresponsibly, especially when faced with uncertainty or poorly understood conditions.

That's interesting. Try looking at the current affairs in the world nowadays with that logic in mind, and take the implications to their logical conclusion. You may be shocked at where it leads you.

Besides, on what basis do they "negotiate" afterwards? What possible leverage does the more primitive culture have on the more advanced one, that could easily - if it so desired or if pushed far enough - destroy it completely?

"Make peace and you won't have to expend the effort to come out here and kick our asses."

or maybe

"Make peace and we'll quit hurting your bottom line."



Something like that could be said to have worked several times looking at the timeline for that period.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Malenfant:
So, say you have a culture that is technologically (and possibly socially) primitive, that finds itself located near a more advanced, powerful culture. Then say that the more primitive cultre perceives the more advanced one as a threat.

TL9 vs. TL11...I'd say calling the Terran's primitives in comparison to the Vilani a little exagerated...especially at that end of the scale. Backwards, yes. Barbarians, yes. Out right primitive...not really. They were both societies used to "modern" technology. At the high end of the tech scale most of the differences as presented seem to be the same things just better and more efficient as the TL goes up. The blatant example is Jump Drive...sure the Vilani may have longer range, but its not like the functioning of it is fundamentaly different at a societal level. Both are spacefaring cultures familiar with the dangers and advantages thereof. Both had guns, theirs were just more effective...
</font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, but one has literally only just moved into interstellar space, and the other has been there for a LONG time, and in the process absorbed god knows how many races in the process of building their empire. Granted, the Vilani had their conservatism working against them and it was so ingrained that they couldn't really think outside the box like the Terrans could... but still. It doesn't strike me as being particularly sensible to decide to start a war on first contact with a race that owns a vast interstellar empire and therefore has much more resources to bear on you than you've ever seen .

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"Upon this battle depends the survival of Terran civilization. Upon it depends our own way of life and the long continuity of our institutions. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us now. The Vilani know that they will have to break us on this world or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all humanity may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the offworld colonies, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the United Nations lasts for a thousand years, men will say, This was their finest hour."

- speech by the British ambassador to the UN at the start of the First IW

 

[kafka47]

Originally posted by poltroon:
Perhaps the Terrans advanced Coreward to create a "sphere", a zone of safety between themselves and the "passive aggressive" star empire. Perhaps the human governments of Earth did not know how stagnant the Viliani rule was, how slowly the Empire was advancing across space, or how apathetic the citizens and rulers of that star empire really were. But, they did know that where-ever the Terran starships seemed to go, there were Viliani already there.........

Here, Here! Indeed, the beginnigs of the Terran defences would be Rimward (forming a bowl like defence) rather than Coreward. Psionic Institutes (T4) also makes reference to the fact that Psionic Rebels were placed in Interment Camps along the Rimward frontier. The way that I see it is that Rimward frontier was very sparcely populated...many Alien races such as those in TD#13 just waiting for Terran ideas of liberty (ok, we kinda screwed the Vegans but, hey, they are in Terra's backyard)...

Plus, add to that the cost in points that this pesky war was causing for the local Provincial Governor in Vland. Now gentlebeings, we are seeing the beginning of a situation. I rather like it that when the Americans reported to the Security Council, there was a thought of how to defend the Terran homeland - the answer - Clones...and the Uplift program...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
"Upon this battle depends the survival of Terran civilization. Upon it depends our own way of life and the long continuity of our institutions. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us now. The Vilani know that they will have to break us on this world or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all humanity may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the offworld colonies, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the United Nations lasts for a thousand years, men will say, This was their finest hour."

- speech by the British ambassador to the UN at the start of the First IW

I have heard this speach before.

Doesn't it go on to "We will fight them in the asteroid belt, in orbit of the gas giants, on the high orbitals, in the landing zones. And we will never surrender!" (Though we might have to throw rocks and sticks at them...)

 

[Malenfant]

I think the situation during WWII and the situation at the start of the First IW are just a little different, somehow

For one thing, the Vilani aren't swarming all over nearby space conquering everything in their path (unlike the Germans did in WWII). In fact, the Vilani hadn't committed a single hostile act against the Terrans before the war started.

 

[jchurchill]

Note that the Vilani TL stagnation is cultural, neither side can jump into empty space but need to follow jump routes, and the Vilani never invented the meson gun.
=================================================
Well, as one of my characters liked to say when confronted by massive hordes of TL 4 and below barbarians:

"Whatever happens, we have got
The Meson gun, and they have not."

 

[BetterThanLife]

So you think the UN should have adopted a policy of Appeasement? ("These Vilani are reasonable fellows. I bring us Peace, Peace in our times!")

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I think the situation during WWII and the situation at the start of the First IW are just a little different, somehow

For one thing, the Vilani aren't swarming all over nearby space conquering everything in their path (unlike the Germans did in WWII). In fact, the Vilani hadn't committed a single hostile act against the Terrans before the war started.

 

[jchurchill]

So you think the UN should have adopted a policy of Appeasement? ("These Vilani are reasonable fellows. I bring us Peace, Peace in our times!")
=================================================
"Vland is a small planet far away, of which we know very little."

 

[kafka47]

If anything...I wonder if the Americans sense of Manifest Destiny was taken to the Stars after the Chinese and reconstituted USSR (btw, this is cannon -not my personal viewpoint) set off to explore/exploit the rest of Solar System.

I do echo the sediments of those who have dared to have the Vilani as Germans, it is likely that the Terrans were more akin the Germans wanting libenstraum (after finding the Vilani have stolen the Stars from the Earth).

Notwithstanding, I think we are also erring in believing that the Vilani Imperium was so technically advanced. Remember, Bernard's was merely a mining COLONY, sure it might have some High Tech Mining lasers but overall the tech level out here on the frontier would be lower than things more Coreward...similiarly, the larger concentrations of Vilani humans and military would be concentrated more Coreward or defending other flanks.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
So you think the UN should have adopted a policy of Appeasement? ("These Vilani are reasonable fellows. I bring us Peace, Peace in our times!")

No, I do think people should stop using historical analogies that are completely irrelevant here though .

There's nothing to "appease" here. The Vilani were making no demands. They weren't conquering territory. They were just sitting there, minding their own business, when suddenly the Terrans come barging in to rimward saying "hey, this system's near us, so it should be ours!". To quote kafka47:

I do echo the ["sentiments" - "sediments" are entirely different ]of those who have dared to have the Vilani as Germans, it is likely that the Terrans were more akin the Germans wanting libenstraum (after finding the Vilani have stolen the Stars from the Earth).

Pretty much. The Terrans seem a lot closer to the Germans in this analogy. Except the motivation for the Germans wasn't that they felt theatened by the rest of Europe, it was mostly because they DIDN'T feel threatened by the rest of Europe and could therefore get away with it. Until they invaded Poland, that is.

Here though, the Terrans DO apparently feel threatened by their neighbours, so they uh, decide to piss them off and invade them anyway? But still, there seems to be something akin to "Liebenschraum" here...


Either way - by all rights, the Vilani should have crushed Terra in response, considering it was right on their doorstep. Maybe it would have taken two or three IWs before the Vilani got sick of them, but they could easily have steamrollered over Terra at that point. The only reason they didn't seems largely down to the fact that the authors of the setting didn't want it to end that way, which is why the whole era seems rather contrived to me. It seems to be a case of "one side making an unreasonable number of mistakes, while the other has an unreasonable number of lucky breaks" to make much sense to me.

 

[jchurchill]

Either way - by all rights, the Vilani should have crushed Terra in response, considering it was right on their doorstep.
==============================================
The Vilani? Never liked the Vilani very much.
The Vilani begin at Alpha Centuri. Harrumph harrumph.

Colonel Sebastian Malmsey Blimp, Imp. Army (ret'd).

 

[Theophilus]

As I recall from many games of Imperium, and various other sources, the Imperium really didn't want the status quo upset. Regional governors would lie about losses, withold reports, or do whatever it took to stay in power. Also Imperial capital ships were controlled by the central administration and regional governors had to petition for units to be sent forward for their use.

Also, just because they had just invented jump drive doesn't necessarily make them TL9. They could have been TL10, (or higher) especially on military technology. We are, after all, a warlike race.

Also, the Terrans quickly reached a limited TL12, far before the Vilani.

And, we're not fighting the Imperium, just a regional governor.

Also consider this. The fight or flight reflex is very strong. When backed into a corner, people will fight and armed opponent barehanded.

As far as being out teched. Tell that to the ZULU's, they fought the british. Or the MORO's they fought the united states. Milosevic, Hussein, Kim jong Il, Quadaffi, etc. all are willing to bluster against a more "advanced" opponent. And some were willing to go "to war", they may have lost, but they took the chance.

Also, would this be the first war ever started when both sides didn't want war?

Consider this, How could they have warned the Vilani convoy to stay away from the base at Barnard if they couldn't communicate? If we didn't have a common language, communication protocol, etc, NO warning could have been given or recieved. NO communicatin could have been recieved.

anyway, just some rambling to add for consideration.

 

[jchurchill]

Tell that to the ZULU's, they fought the british. Or the MORO's they fought the united states.
================================================
The Zulus certainly won an amazing victory in one battle. They then proceeded to lose the war.

That doesn't undermine your overall points -- just that one Zulu victory did not make the war.

Also the tech diff between Zulu and the British Army was probably a little greater than Terran and Vilani..

 

[Theophilus]

From alien module 6 Pg5 "the interstellar wars"

"At first, the Terrans had no concept ot the immensity of the Vilani Empire. By the time they had fought and won three Interstellar Wars, they grasped not only the immensity of their task, but also the fact that they could conceivable win in the long run.
The Terrans were also unaware of at least one advantage they had. The local governor for the Vilani Empire was charged with winning wars and maintaining the power of the Empire, but operated under a limited budget. Appeals to the Vilani Emperor were costly in terms of personal power,and were generally avoided. Consequently, the local governor often compromised, electing to accept a truce with some territorial lossed, and then claimed victory in reports to his superiors in the Empire."

Some other facts from AM6:
Jump drive developed in 2087
first interstellar jump- 2096 (nine years later)
the mission returned one year later (2097) and informed UNSCA (vilani had been contacted, "tales of the size of the empire")
Empire contaced at Barnard, Nusku, Gashidda
Barnard quickly settled.
"Politicians echoed the popular sentiment that it was unfair for aliens from far away to claim worlds nearer to Terra."
Individual nations began expanding their armed forces and building warships.
Vilani caravan ignores traffic signal in 2118. (22 years to prepare for war.)

It sounds to me like the Terrans had 22 years of sabre rattling before the Vilani (provoked) a war, THIS WAS NOT AN OVERNIGHT THING.

ALSO: "the vilani scarcely knew a war was going on,which was fortunate for the Terrans." (amen)

 

[clementk]

I'm not fond of using historical analogies with a science fiction game. Among other reasons I don’t think you can easily find a direct analogy in most cases. It can be fun though and the Traveller Ancients sure are into history.

Some other possibles are:

1) the Greek-Persian conflicts from the Persian Wars to Alexander the Great; by all rights Achaemenid Persia should have rolled over the tiny Greek city states without a problem. Instead in less than 200 years Greek generals are ruling whole sections of the Persian Empire and Hellenistic culture soon reaches from Sicily to western India. Within 300 years of that the last of the Successor states, Ptolemaic Egypt, falls to Rome when Cleopatra VII dies.

2) the migrations of the Ostrogoths leading to them taking over an overstretched if superior on paper Rome; fading within a few generations afterwards, leaving barely a reminder that they ever ruled as the Dark Ages fall upon Western Europe.

Combine them and you come close IMO to the IW. In each case you have a disorganized, outnumbered, and in most aspects technologically deficient culture running into, unifying under perceived threat from, and taking over control of a technically superior power.

As to the whys of the IW, well the Greeks perceived the Persians as decedent and the system of emperor/kings and satraps the antithesis of proper Greek civilization. The Greeks didn’t expand much to the west because rich Persia lay to the East, had nearly taken over them before after the whole matter started, and might do so in the future. The Ostrogoths aren’t as good an analogy here, moving towards Rome under pressure from tribes further back, but they do head towards Rome for similar reasons as Greece towards Persia.

China and I belive India certainly have had their share of foreign tribes taking over and becoming the next dynasty.

As for how Terra could have negotiated with the Vilani after the 1st IW even though Vland potentially could have crushed them? Perhaps for the same reasons Greece could with Persia after defeating Persia after the initial stage at the Battle of Marathon. Because Greece defeated the invasion and Persia had other matters to attend to in its vast realm, including keeping the satraps in line and keeping those pesky Scythian nomads and others at bay. Both sides needed to regroup though they didn’t admit it to each other openly. Twelve years later the Persians try again. Repeat.

Casey (Wikipedia goodness)

edit-added embedded linkage in body of post so folk can look up further detail if they wish without this thread devolving further into historical lectures

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Theophilus:
From alien module 6 Pg5 "the interstellar wars"
<snip>
ALSO: "the vilani scarcely knew a war was going on,which was fortunate for the Terrans." (amen)

That reads a lot like the Greek-Persian Wars to me. One difference is I don't think the Vilani tried to hire out Terran mercenaries, buy or otherwise influence individual Terran colonies or nations, and I don't think there's a lull in the interstellar Wars where various Terran factions knock each other out until a colony conquers and unites them all leading to the conquest of Ziru Sirka (i.e. the Peloponnesian War and the rise of those "upstart Greek wannabes" the Macedonians, i.e. Alexander the Great, in Greece).

Still close enough sounding for me to finally break out my Herodotus and get some fodder for my version of the IW.

Casey (off historical soapbox)

 

[Malenfant]

"Politicians echoed the popular sentiment that it was unfair for aliens from far away to claim worlds nearer to Terra."

Ah. So the main reason that the wars started was "Terran brute stupidity". Gotcha .

As if we'd have any kind of sense of entitlement to the stars around us... "Oh. We were going to take these, we thought nobody was using them - we didn't know you were here. What, you say you are using them? DIE, ALIEN SCUM!!!"