TL9 vs. TL11...I'd say calling the Terran's primitives in comparison to the Vilani a little exagerated...especially at that end of the scale. Backwards, yes. Barbarians, yes. Out right primitive...not really. They were both societies used to "modern" technology. At the high end of the tech scale most of the differences as presented seem to be the same things just better and more efficient as the TL goes up. The blatant example is Jump Drive...sure the Vilani may have longer range, but its not like the functioning of it is fundamentaly different at a societal level. Both are spacefaring cultures familiar with the dangers and advantages thereof. Both had guns, theirs were just more effective...Originally posted by Malenfant:
So, say you have a culture that is technologically (and possibly socially) primitive, that finds itself located near a more advanced, powerful culture. Then say that the more primitive cultre perceives the more advanced one as a threat.
Reasonable, perhaps not. Possible and perhaps even likely, I would think so. Even if we're supposed to have become cooperative enough to give the UN real strength by the time of contact with the Vilani, I doubt the human race will ever grow out of its ability to behave irrationally and even irresponsibly, especially when faced with uncertainty or poorly understood conditions.Originally posted by Malenfant:
Now, you're suggesting it's reasonable that the more primitive culture should strike hard at the more advanced, powerful one to get some "breathing space", and then to negotiate?
"Make peace and you won't have to expend the effort to come out here and kick our asses."
That's interesting. Try looking at the current affairs in the world nowadays with that logic in mind, and take the implications to their logical conclusion. You may be shocked at where it leads you.![]()
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Besides, on what basis do they "negotiate" afterwards? What possible leverage does the more primitive culture have on the more advanced one, that could easily - if it so desired or if pushed far enough - destroy it completely?
TL9 vs. TL11...I'd say calling the Terran's primitives in comparison to the Vilani a little exagerated...especially at that end of the scale. Backwards, yes. Barbarians, yes. Out right primitive...not really. They were both societies used to "modern" technology. At the high end of the tech scale most of the differences as presented seem to be the same things just better and more efficient as the TL goes up. The blatant example is Jump Drive...sure the Vilani may have longer range, but its not like the functioning of it is fundamentaly different at a societal level. Both are spacefaring cultures familiar with the dangers and advantages thereof. Both had guns, theirs were just more effective...Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Malenfant:
So, say you have a culture that is technologically (and possibly socially) primitive, that finds itself located near a more advanced, powerful culture. Then say that the more primitive cultre perceives the more advanced one as a threat.
Here, Here! Indeed, the beginnigs of the Terran defences would be Rimward (forming a bowl like defence) rather than Coreward. Psionic Institutes (T4) also makes reference to the fact that Psionic Rebels were placed in Interment Camps along the Rimward frontier. The way that I see it is that Rimward frontier was very sparcely populated...many Alien races such as those in TD#13 just waiting for Terran ideas of liberty (ok, we kinda screwed the Vegans but, hey, they are in Terra's backyard)...Originally posted by poltroon:
Perhaps the Terrans advanced Coreward to create a "sphere", a zone of safety between themselves and the "passive aggressive" star empire. Perhaps the human governments of Earth did not know how stagnant the Viliani rule was, how slowly the Empire was advancing across space, or how apathetic the citizens and rulers of that star empire really were. But, they did know that where-ever the Terran starships seemed to go, there were Viliani already there.........
I have heard this speach before.Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
"Upon this battle depends the survival of Terran civilization. Upon it depends our own way of life and the long continuity of our institutions. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us now. The Vilani know that they will have to break us on this world or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all humanity may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the offworld colonies, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the United Nations lasts for a thousand years, men will say, This was their finest hour."
- speech by the British ambassador to the UN at the start of the First IW
Originally posted by Malenfant:
I think the situation during WWII and the situation at the start of the First IW are just a little different, somehow![]()
For one thing, the Vilani aren't swarming all over nearby space conquering everything in their path (unlike the Germans did in WWII). In fact, the Vilani hadn't committed a single hostile act against the Terrans before the war started.
No, I do think people should stop using historical analogies that are completely irrelevant here thoughOriginally posted by Bhoins:
So you think the UN should have adopted a policy of Appeasement? ("These Vilani are reasonable fellows. I bring us Peace, Peace in our times!")
Pretty much. The Terrans seem a lot closer to the Germans in this analogy. Except the motivation for the Germans wasn't that they felt theatened by the rest of Europe, it was mostly because they DIDN'T feel threatened by the rest of Europe and could therefore get away with it. Until they invaded Poland, that is.I do echo the ["sentiments" - "sediments" are entirely different]of those who have dared to have the Vilani as Germans, it is likely that the Terrans were more akin the Germans wanting libenstraum (after finding the Vilani have stolen the Stars from the Earth).
That reads a lot like the Greek-Persian Wars to me. One difference is I don't think the Vilani tried to hire out Terran mercenaries, buy or otherwise influence individual Terran colonies or nations, and I don't think there's a lull in the interstellar Wars where various Terran factions knock each other out until a colony conquers and unites them all leading to the conquest of Ziru Sirka (i.e. the Peloponnesian War and the rise of those "upstart Greek wannabes" the Macedonians, i.e. Alexander the Great, in Greece).Originally posted by Theophilus:
From alien module 6 Pg5 "the interstellar wars"
<snip>
ALSO: "the vilani scarcely knew a war was going on,which was fortunate for the Terrans." (amen)
Ah. So the main reason that the wars started was "Terran brute stupidity". Gotcha"Politicians echoed the popular sentiment that it was unfair for aliens from far away to claim worlds nearer to Terra."