Anyone know the name of the Terran starship that jumped to Barnards Star in 2096?

[jchurchill]

Andrew wrote:

Re. America in WWI: Churchill apparently said:

"If you hadn't entered the war the Allies would have made peace with Germany in the Spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, no breakdown in Italy followed by Fascism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty, which has enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war, all these 'isms' wouldn't today be sweeping the continent of Europe and breaking down parliamentary government - and if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over one million British, French, American, and other lives."
================================================
The important word there is "apparently." Churchill later denied saying this or at least backtracked from it.

Also, Churchill, the skilled politician and speaker, tailored his remarks to his audience.
In 1936 US the isolationist movement was hitting full stride and there were large numbers all over the US who would have nodded agreement with this. Churchill also believed at that time that Wilhemine Germany surviving was preferable to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Whether he was correct that Russia would not have collapsed, Germany would have made peace and millions of lives spared is something we will never know but given the situation in 1917 probably not. The "terrible ifs" --as WSC once said -- begin to accumulate. WSC also had a tendency with his skilled rhetoric of overselling hsi case sometimes. When he was right he was amazingly right...when he was mistaken he could be far off the mark. Luckily he was right much more often than wrong. [Like the US president I'm a Churchill admirer. Unlike the president I have actually read his writings. ]

PS. his closing remarks in The World Crisis are probably much closer to his real considered opinion on the matter....at least in 1929. By 1942 his view on US intervention in European affairs had changed a good bit.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"Churchill later denied saying this or at least backtracked from it."

True, but others have made similar arguments.

"Whether he was correct that Russia would not have collapsed, Germany would have made peace and millions of lives spared is something we will never know but given the situation in 1917 probably not."

It's certainly a best-case scenario, and it's unlikely they all would have happened (the Russian revolution was almost inevitable by then), but it's a plausible argument.

"By 1942 his view on US intervention in European affairs had changed a good bit."

Nobody could deny that US involvement in WW2 was essential. (Two years late, admittedly, but very welcome. "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." - Winston Churchill)

I think we're drifting seriously off-topic, though, so back to the IW...

 

[Theophilus]

I pulled out Vilani&Vargr and Solomani&Aslan, just to compare their versions of history to AM6.

The Vilani Version is: We didn't even know it was happening until it was too late.

And considering the fact that the Vilani had never tolerated a jump capable interstellar polity, especially one who had independantly developed jump drive, on their borders. I believe the conquest of Terra was bound to happen. If the massed vargr threat had not distracted the Vilani it may have come sooner.

The fact that a Vilani convoy flew int a "No Fly Zone" after being warned off can only be construed as a provocative action. The fact that the Terrans had controlled Barnard for twenty plus years rules out this being an "accident".

The Vilani Regional Governor may have been trying to pull a Bluff, hoping to cause the upstart terrans to back down. It failed.

Caught by suprised, he backs down, concedes territory, and tries to save face.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Theophilus:
The fact that a Vilani convoy flew int a "No Fly Zone" after being warned off can only be construed as a provocative action. The fact that the Terrans had controlled Barnard for twenty plus years rules out this being an "accident".

From the text, I get the distinct impression that the Terrans hadn't "controlled" Barnard for that period at all - they were just 'squatting' there. The Vilani tolerated them in the system as long as the Terrans knew who the boss was. When the Terrans got uppity, Vilani patience ran out.

A Vilani convoy flying into Terran-claimed airspace (that the Vilani didn't even recognise) could easily be accidental (or at least, non-malicious), and could easily cause a war given the tension.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I did a search on this quote and found that there is a lenghty discussion on whether or not Churchill actually said it. The general consessus is that the quote definitely isn't his style of speaking, much less writing. Nor is it something he might have said based on things that transpired during the war or immediately after it. (He was after all First Sea Lord for part of WWI.) (Having read Churchill on WWII I tend to agree, it isn't his.) And if this was his belief then in his first book on WWII he would have brought it up. He did not. So, while it is possible that he said it, I find it highly unlikely that he actually did say it.

As for the eventual outcome. Based on a couple of little known battles and a fundamental change in German tactics in terms of how to defeat the trench defenses in late 1917 and 1918, I would say there was a decent chance that Germany could have actually won, especially with the Russian withdrawl from the war. Not saying it was a guarantee but a definite chance. If the lines had been broken and then the British were forced to sue for a seperate peace (Granted a decent sized if.) then the face of Europe would definitely be different today. Also WWII might have been avoided.

As for the IW. Given the general nature of the Grand Empire of the Stars, war between the Vilani and Solomani was virtually inevitable. Having it not start when it did would have just delayed the inevitable, and allowed the Vilani to choose the terms of the campaign.

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
"Churchill later denied saying this or at least backtracked from it."

True, but others have made similar arguments.

"Whether he was correct that Russia would not have collapsed, Germany would have made peace and millions of lives spared is something we will never know but given the situation in 1917 probably not."

It's certainly a best-case scenario, and it's unlikely they all would have happened (the Russian revolution was almost inevitable by then), but it's a plausible argument.

"By 1942 his view on US intervention in European affairs had changed a good bit."

Nobody could deny that US involvement in WW2 was essential. (Two years late, admittedly, but very welcome. "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." - Winston Churchill)

I think we're drifting seriously off-topic, though, so back to the IW...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"As for the eventual outcome. Based on a couple of little known battles and a fundamental change in German tactics in terms of how to defeat the trench defenses in late 1917 and 1918, I would say there was a decent chance that Germany could have actually won, especially with the Russian withdrawl from the war."

Ah, but the US entered the was in April '17, and had been thinking about it for a couple of months. If this hadn't happened, the Allies might have agreed to a peace treaty in mid-1917.

 

[jchurchill]

Ah, but the US entered the was in April '17, and had been thinking about it for a couple of months. If this hadn't happened, the Allies might have agreed to a peace treaty in mid-1917.
=================================================
Okay, still further off topic and then we can get back to Terran bashing.

The Allies were running down on 1917 [witness the French army mutinies but those were primarily directed at Nivelle. Foch taking command restored morale.] But papers and records from 1917-1918 show that while the British and the French were contemplating a truce or negotiated peace they kept it secert because the respective publics were not ready to allow Germany to retain Belgium and parts of northern France. Germany was not willing to go back to 1914 borders. See

"The First World War and International Politics
by David Stevenson"

Also, the tank had begun to shift the tide and the Germans didn't really appreciate until later.
[Achtung Panzer Baby -- the long lost collaboration of Guderian and U2]
Ditto the "areoplane" -- by early 1918 the Germans were losing the air war by numbers alone.

I would not say that a negotiated peace was out of the question but it is not as likely as some speculate. And it's all speculation. [Niall Ferguson and his "counterfactuals" be damned. Even NF says that one must look carefully at contemporary thought to speculate on "what if."]

Well, back to traveller --

The only good vilani is a dead vilani.

 

[Theophilus]

Checking V&V, I see Malenfants point.
While it says the "terrans returned in force, setting up a base on the planet they called Barnard", it also indicates the owning vilani and terran prospectors were disputing over boundarys. Leading to open conflict.

 

[Theophilus]

One more point.

Vilani And Vargr Pg 37. Right column. second and third paragraphs.

"they are ruthless adversaries. They rarely take prisoners, use nuclear and biochemical weapons freely, and have no compunctions about sterilizing entire planets."

"so they seek out the most cost-effective solutions. High- yield weapons, such as nuclear devices, are very cost effective."

When the only options the Vilani give you are surrender or be nuked out of existence. What do you choose?
Some in this post have mentioned appeasement. Like europes post WWI appeasement of Hitler. The Vilani will destroy terra if we don't surrender. There is no negotiation. Surrender or Die. The Vilani GOD is efficiency. One planet means nothing to an empire that spans 7000 planets.
How do you appease someone who is ruthless? How do you negotiate with someone who wont tolerate any competition?

 

[Murph]

Ok, so whats the consensus on this one?

 

[mike wightman]

A consensus about which part of the thread?

 

[jatay3]

I think we are overemphasizing wwii in this discussion(really-was no other war EVER fought?).

It might have started with something more basic-Terrans considered the Vilani snootish, and Vilani considered Terrans boorish. And maybe both were right.
It is possible that something happend at Barnard's star that presented a prestiege problem neither felt able to ignore. For that matter the Vilani would have been so complacent and the Terrans so pushy that neither would have felt it necessary.
It could have been something as trivial as saying the Emperor's daughter was ugly. Or whatever.
Or there could have been a slow buildup of trivial annoyances that are unmentioned(some hints are given-the Vilani might have blamed the Terrans for a plague, in return the Terrans might have found certain quarentine restriction humiliating. There would be a number of circumstances.
Or maybe there was a minor war going on between the Terran's and the Vilani on Barnard's star, for whatever reason. If such was the case the Terrans would have a perfectly good reason to object to a Vilani convoy landing there-and the Vilani a perfectly good reason to object to the objection.
It is not necessary that either side be compossed of monsters.

 

[jatay3]

As a side note it seems to be that both parties were basing their claim to an entire star system on the fact that they had a tiny outpost within said star system.

 

[far-trader]

I always figured the Terran position was that the system in question was in our backyard and claimed by the Terran government(s). A kind of territorial waters issue on a galactic scale.

Versus the Imperial claim being made not by the government but by some scruffy prospectors over a hundred light years from home, in the view of the Terrans.

 

[jatay3]

I on the other hand think it's better to learn about the other culture,
----------------------------
the Intersteller Wars started about twenty years after the first contact