Armour in book 2 ship combat
- Thread starter mike wightman
- Start date
Sigg Oddra,
Just curious, have you looked at Ken Pick's "Beyond Book 2" rules at Freelance Traveller?
Link:
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/book2plus.html
Just curious, have you looked at Ken Pick's "Beyond Book 2" rules at Freelance Traveller?
Link:
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/book2plus.html
Sigg Oddra,
Just curious, have you looked at Ken Pick's "Beyond Book 2" rules at Freelance Traveller?
Link:
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/book2plus.html
Just curious, have you looked at Ken Pick's "Beyond Book 2" rules at Freelance Traveller?
Link:
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/book2plus.html
Generally, in the real world (stepping away from Traveller rules):
1. Passives have a longer range. But they can be slow and require some large physical sizes.
2. Actives give either a faster or more informative profile.
3. Going active is like pointing out where you are, but not necessarily who. ESM is a big and confusing area, reconcilling detected signals with known patterns and trying to figure out things like "I detected emissions at A and B... is that one target moving from A to B or two targets?" and "His profile makes him look like a merchie... but he could be sandbagging... lets take a closer look before marking him 'non-combatant'".
Fire controls tend to be active. I don't think you could effectively run counter missile with passives (though I could be wrong). But most CIWS are active. Similarly, most longer range firecons are active and most missiles, even if launched passive, home on active in the final stages (though this may not be true of heat seekers). Fire control radars tend to throw a *lot* of power into a very small slice of the full 360 in order to get you a nice solid lockup on your target, who is probably jinking like heck to avoid your warm welcome.
In any kind of busy system, just turning on active radar won't be enough to give you away. There will often be other ships (even bulk carriers, liners, etc) which will give off signal profiles similar to what military ships can imitate. Get close enough, you can usually penetrate them or spot the flaw... but that takes some time or higher tech. And usually ROE does not let you just blow the crap out of every signal. So you have to actually get close enough for positive ID on the target (suddenly we see a useful role for fighters, for destroyers, etc). This might lead to pirates imitating legitemate merchants getting close in shots against the system patrol vessels. Or getting close enough to try a smash-and-grab on another merchie, trying to grab and jump out before the system's responders can get there.
In a less busy situation, you may just be able to assume any contact is a Tango.
ESM is an interesting field. Most military ships can tune their own radar systems to look like other types or classes of ship or put out the types of pulses they would. Similarly, they maintain a database of data which will help them ID sonar and radar contacts based on last-known-profile for classes and even individual enemy vessels. This keeps the NavInt weasels employed spying out this stuff.
Note too that active/fire control systems may well be capable of 'blinding' civilian ships systems. A frigate once brought up its search radar inside halifax harbour. All nearby civilian craft were just washed right out. I don't know if they suffered reciever damage (I think some less well designed recievers without shunts or overload bypasses might have been actually damaged) for sure, but they sure weren't making anything out. They might have been able to tell somebody nearby was hot and maybe even get a direction, but that'd pretty much be it. Civilian radars just weren't meant to take that kind of juice (Navy guys fry seagulls with the system sometimes...).
1. Passives have a longer range. But they can be slow and require some large physical sizes.
2. Actives give either a faster or more informative profile.
3. Going active is like pointing out where you are, but not necessarily who. ESM is a big and confusing area, reconcilling detected signals with known patterns and trying to figure out things like "I detected emissions at A and B... is that one target moving from A to B or two targets?" and "His profile makes him look like a merchie... but he could be sandbagging... lets take a closer look before marking him 'non-combatant'".
Fire controls tend to be active. I don't think you could effectively run counter missile with passives (though I could be wrong). But most CIWS are active. Similarly, most longer range firecons are active and most missiles, even if launched passive, home on active in the final stages (though this may not be true of heat seekers). Fire control radars tend to throw a *lot* of power into a very small slice of the full 360 in order to get you a nice solid lockup on your target, who is probably jinking like heck to avoid your warm welcome.
In any kind of busy system, just turning on active radar won't be enough to give you away. There will often be other ships (even bulk carriers, liners, etc) which will give off signal profiles similar to what military ships can imitate. Get close enough, you can usually penetrate them or spot the flaw... but that takes some time or higher tech. And usually ROE does not let you just blow the crap out of every signal. So you have to actually get close enough for positive ID on the target (suddenly we see a useful role for fighters, for destroyers, etc). This might lead to pirates imitating legitemate merchants getting close in shots against the system patrol vessels. Or getting close enough to try a smash-and-grab on another merchie, trying to grab and jump out before the system's responders can get there.
In a less busy situation, you may just be able to assume any contact is a Tango.
ESM is an interesting field. Most military ships can tune their own radar systems to look like other types or classes of ship or put out the types of pulses they would. Similarly, they maintain a database of data which will help them ID sonar and radar contacts based on last-known-profile for classes and even individual enemy vessels. This keeps the NavInt weasels employed spying out this stuff.
Note too that active/fire control systems may well be capable of 'blinding' civilian ships systems. A frigate once brought up its search radar inside halifax harbour. All nearby civilian craft were just washed right out. I don't know if they suffered reciever damage (I think some less well designed recievers without shunts or overload bypasses might have been actually damaged) for sure, but they sure weren't making anything out. They might have been able to tell somebody nearby was hot and maybe even get a direction, but that'd pretty much be it. Civilian radars just weren't meant to take that kind of juice (Navy guys fry seagulls with the system sometimes...).
Generally, in the real world (stepping away from Traveller rules):
1. Passives have a longer range. But they can be slow and require some large physical sizes.
2. Actives give either a faster or more informative profile.
3. Going active is like pointing out where you are, but not necessarily who. ESM is a big and confusing area, reconcilling detected signals with known patterns and trying to figure out things like "I detected emissions at A and B... is that one target moving from A to B or two targets?" and "His profile makes him look like a merchie... but he could be sandbagging... lets take a closer look before marking him 'non-combatant'".
Fire controls tend to be active. I don't think you could effectively run counter missile with passives (though I could be wrong). But most CIWS are active. Similarly, most longer range firecons are active and most missiles, even if launched passive, home on active in the final stages (though this may not be true of heat seekers). Fire control radars tend to throw a *lot* of power into a very small slice of the full 360 in order to get you a nice solid lockup on your target, who is probably jinking like heck to avoid your warm welcome.
In any kind of busy system, just turning on active radar won't be enough to give you away. There will often be other ships (even bulk carriers, liners, etc) which will give off signal profiles similar to what military ships can imitate. Get close enough, you can usually penetrate them or spot the flaw... but that takes some time or higher tech. And usually ROE does not let you just blow the crap out of every signal. So you have to actually get close enough for positive ID on the target (suddenly we see a useful role for fighters, for destroyers, etc). This might lead to pirates imitating legitemate merchants getting close in shots against the system patrol vessels. Or getting close enough to try a smash-and-grab on another merchie, trying to grab and jump out before the system's responders can get there.
In a less busy situation, you may just be able to assume any contact is a Tango.
ESM is an interesting field. Most military ships can tune their own radar systems to look like other types or classes of ship or put out the types of pulses they would. Similarly, they maintain a database of data which will help them ID sonar and radar contacts based on last-known-profile for classes and even individual enemy vessels. This keeps the NavInt weasels employed spying out this stuff.
Note too that active/fire control systems may well be capable of 'blinding' civilian ships systems. A frigate once brought up its search radar inside halifax harbour. All nearby civilian craft were just washed right out. I don't know if they suffered reciever damage (I think some less well designed recievers without shunts or overload bypasses might have been actually damaged) for sure, but they sure weren't making anything out. They might have been able to tell somebody nearby was hot and maybe even get a direction, but that'd pretty much be it. Civilian radars just weren't meant to take that kind of juice (Navy guys fry seagulls with the system sometimes...).
1. Passives have a longer range. But they can be slow and require some large physical sizes.
2. Actives give either a faster or more informative profile.
3. Going active is like pointing out where you are, but not necessarily who. ESM is a big and confusing area, reconcilling detected signals with known patterns and trying to figure out things like "I detected emissions at A and B... is that one target moving from A to B or two targets?" and "His profile makes him look like a merchie... but he could be sandbagging... lets take a closer look before marking him 'non-combatant'".
Fire controls tend to be active. I don't think you could effectively run counter missile with passives (though I could be wrong). But most CIWS are active. Similarly, most longer range firecons are active and most missiles, even if launched passive, home on active in the final stages (though this may not be true of heat seekers). Fire control radars tend to throw a *lot* of power into a very small slice of the full 360 in order to get you a nice solid lockup on your target, who is probably jinking like heck to avoid your warm welcome.
In any kind of busy system, just turning on active radar won't be enough to give you away. There will often be other ships (even bulk carriers, liners, etc) which will give off signal profiles similar to what military ships can imitate. Get close enough, you can usually penetrate them or spot the flaw... but that takes some time or higher tech. And usually ROE does not let you just blow the crap out of every signal. So you have to actually get close enough for positive ID on the target (suddenly we see a useful role for fighters, for destroyers, etc). This might lead to pirates imitating legitemate merchants getting close in shots against the system patrol vessels. Or getting close enough to try a smash-and-grab on another merchie, trying to grab and jump out before the system's responders can get there.
In a less busy situation, you may just be able to assume any contact is a Tango.
ESM is an interesting field. Most military ships can tune their own radar systems to look like other types or classes of ship or put out the types of pulses they would. Similarly, they maintain a database of data which will help them ID sonar and radar contacts based on last-known-profile for classes and even individual enemy vessels. This keeps the NavInt weasels employed spying out this stuff.
Note too that active/fire control systems may well be capable of 'blinding' civilian ships systems. A frigate once brought up its search radar inside halifax harbour. All nearby civilian craft were just washed right out. I don't know if they suffered reciever damage (I think some less well designed recievers without shunts or overload bypasses might have been actually damaged) for sure, but they sure weren't making anything out. They might have been able to tell somebody nearby was hot and maybe even get a direction, but that'd pretty much be it. Civilian radars just weren't meant to take that kind of juice (Navy guys fry seagulls with the system sometimes...).
This was sort-of demonstrated on the pilot episode of "Firefly". They were caught performing some illegal salvage, and activated a distant "crybaby" satellite which gave off an SOS, masquerading as a transport liner in distress and drawing attention away from them long enough to escape.
This was sort-of demonstrated on the pilot episode of "Firefly". They were caught performing some illegal salvage, and activated a distant "crybaby" satellite which gave off an SOS, masquerading as a transport liner in distress and drawing attention away from them long enough to escape.
In fact, I'm not sure how that could fail to work. Maritime code requires you to go to the aide of distressed vessels nearby if possible and if it won't endanger your vessel/crew. So pretty much anytime one of these was popped, as long as you (the system defence commander) couldn't know that it *wasn't* legitemate (and with jumping-in being possible, it *could* be, if your sensors can't disprove it), then you'd *have* to go check on it and let the stinky pirate (read: independent commercial opportunist) go.
In fact, I'm not sure how that could fail to work. Maritime code requires you to go to the aide of distressed vessels nearby if possible and if it won't endanger your vessel/crew. So pretty much anytime one of these was popped, as long as you (the system defence commander) couldn't know that it *wasn't* legitemate (and with jumping-in being possible, it *could* be, if your sensors can't disprove it), then you'd *have* to go check on it and let the stinky pirate (read: independent commercial opportunist) go.
I'd use the second option that is, use the number of hits as penetration. Makes sense for most "SS3 - Missiles" missile hits. Oh, and I suppose that a 100+ modified roll woud mean instand distruction; Even a big ship shouldn't survive if it recieves a direct nuclear hit (as opposed to a near miss).
Oh, and by your penetration tables, there isn't any real reason to invent Fusion cannons on TL12 - Plasa cannons are just as efficient (same Penetration). I think that giving them a slightly higher modifier would justify their TL12 use.
I'd use the second option that is, use the number of hits as penetration. Makes sense for most "SS3 - Missiles" missile hits. Oh, and I suppose that a 100+ modified roll woud mean instand distruction; Even a big ship shouldn't survive if it recieves a direct nuclear hit (as opposed to a near miss).
Oh, and by your penetration tables, there isn't any real reason to invent Fusion cannons on TL12 - Plasa cannons are just as efficient (same Penetration). I think that giving them a slightly higher modifier would justify their TL12 use.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Ooops, the plasma gun has too high a factor.
Thanks for spotting it.
I'll edit it accordingly
Thanks for spotting it.
I'll edit it accordingly
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Ooops, the plasma gun has too high a factor.
Thanks for spotting it.
I'll edit it accordingly
Thanks for spotting it.
I'll edit it accordingly
Sigg Oddra, would you like to submit your LBB-2 improvements (Armor, CIC, Heavy Turrets and Sensors) to the Stellar Reaches Fanzine?
I think it (and the entire community) would benefit from a consolidated, highly accessible version of these rules, and I'd like to submit several ship designs to the E-Zine utilising these rules.
I think it (and the entire community) would benefit from a consolidated, highly accessible version of these rules, and I'd like to submit several ship designs to the E-Zine utilising these rules.
Sigg Oddra, would you like to submit your LBB-2 improvements (Armor, CIC, Heavy Turrets and Sensors) to the Stellar Reaches Fanzine?
I think it (and the entire community) would benefit from a consolidated, highly accessible version of these rules, and I'd like to submit several ship designs to the E-Zine utilising these rules.
I think it (and the entire community) would benefit from a consolidated, highly accessible version of these rules, and I'd like to submit several ship designs to the E-Zine utilising these rules.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I can give it a go.
The problem is that I keep tinkering with things.
I'm still not happy with some elements of the heavy turrets idea (some of the weapon damages are too high for play balance, 15 lasers in one turret? 15 missiles in flight in one go?).
Then there's all the fluff text to add.
And the armour rules...
I still have to post bay weapons and spinal mounts for LBB2 ships.
The problem is that I keep tinkering with things.
I'm still not happy with some elements of the heavy turrets idea (some of the weapon damages are too high for play balance, 15 lasers in one turret? 15 missiles in flight in one go?).
Then there's all the fluff text to add.
And the armour rules...
I still have to post bay weapons and spinal mounts for LBB2 ships.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I can give it a go.
The problem is that I keep tinkering with things.
I'm still not happy with some elements of the heavy turrets idea (some of the weapon damages are too high for play balance, 15 lasers in one turret? 15 missiles in flight in one go?).
Then there's all the fluff text to add.
And the armour rules...
I still have to post bay weapons and spinal mounts for LBB2 ships.
The problem is that I keep tinkering with things.
I'm still not happy with some elements of the heavy turrets idea (some of the weapon damages are too high for play balance, 15 lasers in one turret? 15 missiles in flight in one go?).
Then there's all the fluff text to add.
And the armour rules...
I still have to post bay weapons and spinal mounts for LBB2 ships.
The next issue is atleast a once or two ahead; plenty of time to tinker with this.
The basic armor rules (tonnage and price) would by the LBB-5 formulas anyway (I have them already as I have the books 0-8 in one volume reprint edition).
As far as I understand, a Heavy Turret has 8 slots; Plasma/Fusion take 4 slots each; Laser/Missile/Sandcaster takes 1 slot each. So 8 lasers/missiles in one turret... still a bit heavy. I think that the Heavy Turret should be a "Quad Turret", that is 4 slots, Laser/Missile/Sandcaster take one slot each, Plasma/Fusion takle 2 slots each.
Another issue: Your tables don't mention the difference between Beam Lasers (accurate but weak) and Pulse Lasers (inaccurate but powerful). I think that Beam Lasers should have the Penetration of Pulse Lasers minus one - that is, a single beam laser has a penetration of +0. Not too good against armor, I'm afraid, but that how I think they should feel.
And the last issue for tonight - Missile Damage. I think that if SS3 is used, the Penetration value should be half the misile's damage - so a good 12-hits focused explosive warhead would be the penetration of a high-tech (TL14) Double Fusion turret. Light, relatively affordable nukes (below 1-kiloton) would be at the extremely high end of the damage table (0.5Kton would have a penetration of +25 and 10 Radiation damage per "hit"), but that's OK considering their price (which makes really big nukes almost non-viable for military use), and the fact that they could be shot down by lasers/ disabled by sand (one good hit and the KCr400 missile goes down the drain
)
EDIT: House rules of similar flavor, with bays and mass-launch facilities included: http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/book2plus.html
They do have their problems (a Laser Bay does 30 hits per shot?), but I like their down-and-dirty approach and their Multiple Engine rules (Megacarriers glore!)
The basic armor rules (tonnage and price) would by the LBB-5 formulas anyway (I have them already as I have the books 0-8 in one volume reprint edition).
As far as I understand, a Heavy Turret has 8 slots; Plasma/Fusion take 4 slots each; Laser/Missile/Sandcaster takes 1 slot each. So 8 lasers/missiles in one turret... still a bit heavy. I think that the Heavy Turret should be a "Quad Turret", that is 4 slots, Laser/Missile/Sandcaster take one slot each, Plasma/Fusion takle 2 slots each.
Another issue: Your tables don't mention the difference between Beam Lasers (accurate but weak) and Pulse Lasers (inaccurate but powerful). I think that Beam Lasers should have the Penetration of Pulse Lasers minus one - that is, a single beam laser has a penetration of +0. Not too good against armor, I'm afraid, but that how I think they should feel.
And the last issue for tonight - Missile Damage. I think that if SS3 is used, the Penetration value should be half the misile's damage - so a good 12-hits focused explosive warhead would be the penetration of a high-tech (TL14) Double Fusion turret. Light, relatively affordable nukes (below 1-kiloton) would be at the extremely high end of the damage table (0.5Kton would have a penetration of +25 and 10 Radiation damage per "hit"), but that's OK considering their price (which makes really big nukes almost non-viable for military use), and the fact that they could be shot down by lasers/ disabled by sand (one good hit and the KCr400 missile goes down the drain
EDIT: House rules of similar flavor, with bays and mass-launch facilities included: http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/book2plus.html
They do have their problems (a Laser Bay does 30 hits per shot?), but I like their down-and-dirty approach and their Multiple Engine rules (Megacarriers glore!)
The next issue is atleast a once or two ahead; plenty of time to tinker with this.
The basic armor rules (tonnage and price) would by the LBB-5 formulas anyway (I have them already as I have the books 0-8 in one volume reprint edition).
As far as I understand, a Heavy Turret has 8 slots; Plasma/Fusion take 4 slots each; Laser/Missile/Sandcaster takes 1 slot each. So 8 lasers/missiles in one turret... still a bit heavy. I think that the Heavy Turret should be a "Quad Turret", that is 4 slots, Laser/Missile/Sandcaster take one slot each, Plasma/Fusion takle 2 slots each.
Another issue: Your tables don't mention the difference between Beam Lasers (accurate but weak) and Pulse Lasers (inaccurate but powerful). I think that Beam Lasers should have the Penetration of Pulse Lasers minus one - that is, a single beam laser has a penetration of +0. Not too good against armor, I'm afraid, but that how I think they should feel.
And the last issue for tonight - Missile Damage. I think that if SS3 is used, the Penetration value should be half the misile's damage - so a good 12-hits focused explosive warhead would be the penetration of a high-tech (TL14) Double Fusion turret. Light, relatively affordable nukes (below 1-kiloton) would be at the extremely high end of the damage table (0.5Kton would have a penetration of +25 and 10 Radiation damage per "hit"), but that's OK considering their price (which makes really big nukes almost non-viable for military use), and the fact that they could be shot down by lasers/ disabled by sand (one good hit and the KCr400 missile goes down the drain
)
EDIT: House rules of similar flavor, with bays and mass-launch facilities included: http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/book2plus.html
They do have their problems (a Laser Bay does 30 hits per shot?), but I like their down-and-dirty approach and their Multiple Engine rules (Megacarriers glore!)
The basic armor rules (tonnage and price) would by the LBB-5 formulas anyway (I have them already as I have the books 0-8 in one volume reprint edition).
As far as I understand, a Heavy Turret has 8 slots; Plasma/Fusion take 4 slots each; Laser/Missile/Sandcaster takes 1 slot each. So 8 lasers/missiles in one turret... still a bit heavy. I think that the Heavy Turret should be a "Quad Turret", that is 4 slots, Laser/Missile/Sandcaster take one slot each, Plasma/Fusion takle 2 slots each.
Another issue: Your tables don't mention the difference between Beam Lasers (accurate but weak) and Pulse Lasers (inaccurate but powerful). I think that Beam Lasers should have the Penetration of Pulse Lasers minus one - that is, a single beam laser has a penetration of +0. Not too good against armor, I'm afraid, but that how I think they should feel.
And the last issue for tonight - Missile Damage. I think that if SS3 is used, the Penetration value should be half the misile's damage - so a good 12-hits focused explosive warhead would be the penetration of a high-tech (TL14) Double Fusion turret. Light, relatively affordable nukes (below 1-kiloton) would be at the extremely high end of the damage table (0.5Kton would have a penetration of +25 and 10 Radiation damage per "hit"), but that's OK considering their price (which makes really big nukes almost non-viable for military use), and the fact that they could be shot down by lasers/ disabled by sand (one good hit and the KCr400 missile goes down the drain
EDIT: House rules of similar flavor, with bays and mass-launch facilities included: http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/book2plus.html
They do have their problems (a Laser Bay does 30 hits per shot?), but I like their down-and-dirty approach and their Multiple Engine rules (Megacarriers glore!)
Similar threads
