Aslan Preview

[rancke]

We've got to get a handle on that damned 1:3 ratio somehow...

That's what I don't get. Don't we have a handle on it already? I mean, I wouldn't mind if someone came up with a brilliant retrofit[*] that gave the Aslans a 1:1 birth ratio provided it didn't change anything that had already been established about Aslan society[**]. But to need a canon fix, the ratio would have to be belief-suspender-snappingly unlikely. Not just, "wow, the Aslans sure got lucky there" unlikely but "There's no way I'd believe THAT" unlikely. And I don't think it is. It certainly isn't to me. It's just a species quirk. Moreover, it's an interesting quirk, the sort of quirk that I might even be willing to suspend a bit more than the average amount of disbelief to keep.

No, I just don't see the need to get a new handle on that 1:3 ratio. The one we've got already works just fine for me.

(Please note the difference between not seeing any need and refusing to contemplate a truly brilliant and innovative idea if one came along).


Hans



[*] Note: This is not a misspelling. I mean -fit, not -fix.

[**] Personally I think that caveat renders it impossible to come up with such a retrofit, but it wouldn't upset me to be proven wrong.

 

[mike wightman]

It is the simplest solution really.

Aslan are alien - not uplifted terran felines.

Their biology is alien.

The 1:3 ratio is just a function of that alien-ness

 

[drh]

I just find it astonishing that when we really come down to it, the loudest complainers really have no desire to help fix any problems they have. Rather, they just want to drive people off.

And if you just got offended by that paragraph, good. I meant to offend you.

Finally! Thank god somebody here is talking some sense at last...

I'm certainly sick to the back teeth of S4's constant clucking about how Traveller is doomed because it's not "awesome" in his eyes or because the people who write it now "don't understand it". Well, that's funny, because Mongoose have made the game a hell of a lot more accessible than pretty much any other version of the game and it's finally moving into a wider market - he clearly can't live with that, but I guess that's his problem.

DonM is exactly right, there needs to be a lot more constructive and useful criticism here and a lot less clucking and disapproval. Mongoose aren't putting up these previews so they can get savaged and nitpicked to pieces, or so they can be harangued and lectured by people who think they know better than they do - they're posting them to show off what they're doing and what direction they're going in. If you approve of it, then great, show your approval - if you don't, then criticize it constructively if you must. But at the end if you're still not satisfied then just don't get the damn book and carry on playing the way you like. The rest of us don't need to know about it and don't need to care about it either.

At the end of the day, some people need to get over themselves and accept that things have changed now, because all their whining and ranting and frothing about it isn't going to change anything. I won't name names, but the people involved know who they are. I'm talking about those who refuse to accept that Traveller is not just the OTU anymore, or who refuse to accept that someone else has the right to do whatever they want with the OTU (and with Marc's approval), or that it doesn't conform to their vision of the game anymore, or who refuse to accept that the fact that the effect of some obscure bit of canonical minutia hasn't been considered to the standard of a doctorate on the subject doesn't actually mean the game is doomed or fatally flawed, or who refuse to accept that Mongoose can just flat out change something because they have the right to do that and they don't (because it's not like that hasn't happened before in Traveller canon anyway).

Is that really too much to ask??

Finally I will add that there's an interesting thread on RPGnet (at http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=457588 ) that may have some relevance here. Mostly it's about people being obnoxious about games they don't like. Some individuals here need to read that and consider how they are coming across here, because I for one am not seeing much of a difference between someone who keeps giving his unsolicited opinions to D&D4e players about how much they think 4e sucks and someone who keeps telling people who like Mongoose Traveller that MGT (or Mongoose) sucks or is wrong.

That is all I have to say about the subject. I'm sure I'll get a lot of immature responses and frothing venom from the people involved, and probably a Warning for no apparent reason but I don't really care. It's just clear that this environment is too toxic for me to tolerate, and it's done nothing more than sap any enjoyment I have out of the game.

 

[mike wightman]

You know, the last few pages have been a very constructive discussion.

You posting this is going to start all the snarkyness off again - and you call 'them' immature?

You appear to have missed the admission that mongoose is making some changes to canon due to mistakes - easily corrected mistakes at that.
Judging by how mongoose does revise their material to make later editions better this may yet happen (it could even happen by the time the real Aslan book comes out since this is just stuff in a preview.

Fanboys don't pick up on mistakes because they don't judge with a critical eye. They just use the 'mongoose can do what they like with canon it's their game now' argument.

CotI isn't anti-mongoose, the regulars here remember all too well the mistakes in Traveller's past (T4 shudder ) and how contradictory canon can sometimes be.

 

[drh]

Funny, DonM's post was on the previous page, and it's fair game for discussion too. And the problem still fundamentally exists here either way - I've no doubt that the next Mongoose thread will have the same people saying the same negative, bitchy things again.

And don't insult me by calling me a "fanboy". I'm not some mindless drone who loves everything that Mongoose does, and I'm as critical as anyone else here. You people seem to have a very black and white view of the Traveller fanbase, that either they're with you or against you. That's simply not true - it's just that some of us (most of us, more likely) are just sick of the immature whining that happens whenever anyone does a new edition.

CotI is anti-mongoose because most of the people who support Mongoose have been driven off by the very aggressive sentiments of a few people here. There's just no point in trying to support it here because anyone who does just gets accused of being a "fanboy" or of being uncritical. I'm not against criticizing their products at all, what I detest is when people seem to think they have the authority to criticize Mongoose itself, or to question their motives and reasons for doing things.

We need more posts like DonM's here, especially from someone in some kind of authority on this board as he is. Otherwise there's no point in having this board here. It's interesting to note the difference between this thread and the Aslan Preview thread on the Mongoose forums - that one at least is civilized and not drowning in minutiae. Maybe you think it's constructive, and I'm sure it is if one obsesses so much about this sort of thing, but in the wider fanbase it's likely to be largely irrelevant to anyone's enjoyment of the game. I hate to break it to you but I don't think anybody outside this board actually cares about all these missing little details that you think are going to destroy the Aslan. I'm sure you'll see that as a bad thing, but personally I think that's great - it brings the focus back on playing the Aslan, not bickering about whether they're drawn right or what their genetics should be like.

As for "missing things", MongooseFordy posted about the playtests. If you think you can contribute to making Mongoose's Traveller products "better" then the onus is on you to apply for entry into those playtests and actually do something about it. If you're not willing or able to do that then you have to accept that your influence on the product will be minimal at best. And if you don't want to take part or have some "moral principle" about it that precludes you from taking part, then it's your decision and your loss and you only have yourselves to blame for not attempting to be a constructive part of the process when the opportunity to do so was presented to you.

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

Ishmael has kindly moved both his mega-post and the interesting topic it has sparked to this thread.

We're already begun beavering away on the various aspects of Aslan "anthropology" so please jump on over with comments, opinions, ideas, brickbats, and anything else.


Regards,
Bill

Important Note: The new thread is in the IMTU. I forgot to mention that. The OTU is a starting point, not a stricture. Swing by an join the fun, why don't you?

 

[DonM]

I'm assuming that you're not using the universal "you" here and speaking directly to me since you responded to my post.

I'm not offended at all, and it wasn't until I got to this last line that I realized you've got some anger behind your words.

Tell ya what, pal, that's a direct attack on me you just made. If I wasn't who I was, I'd report your butt in the blink of an eye.

You're supposed to be the "other moderator", and this type of thing is exactly what I meant when I spoke out against you as being that third moderator. You don't have the temperment for it.

I'm not sure what that "other moderator" means. My loyalty isn't towards CotI, it's towards Marc. I've been very straight up with that, and I've rejected all offers of changing my status -- and my moderator powers only work in the T5 playtest forum, not out here.

And, for what it's worth, after I wrote that above, I did report it.

And since you are putting yourself forward... let's talk about you...

S4:

You know CT in and out, backwards, forwards, etc. If a textual reference was needed, you'd probably be a better source than Marc. And rather than be a strength and resource to the game and new fans coming in with the Mongoose release, you have chosen to become a thorn.

I think that's a significant loss to our game. I don't love everything Marc's done with T5 (although the parts I didn't like at first are growing on me), and I definitely don't like some parts of the various Mongoose release. But that doesn't excuse me from trying to help improve them, and it certainly doesn't free me to attack them.

I respect your knowledge of the game and setting, but I continue to be amazed, disappointed and astounded by your insistence on being part of the problem instead of the solution. And I really, really wonder what could be accomplished if you had been willing to walk the other path.

Whipsnade:

Same accolades to you. Actually, truth be known, you might be a little higher on my wish list (S4 used to really annoy me by posting that UGM stuff in my beloved MT forum. GRRR!). I think I understand your philosophy, and I respect it. I think it gets in the way of you contributing like you really could, but at the end of the day, everyone must have their self-respect, and we all have to learn where our lines need to be drawn. You know where yours is at.

Everyone:

But I can't help but think that an article from Whipsnade, S4 and far-trader on playing MGT "old school" would be an incredible read; rancke could put something together on the "traditional" OTU, and Rob and I could review and kibbitz. Mike Wightman and Aramis certain are deserving of a role in this Traveller fantasy. I've probably left someone out, and I didn't mean to offend you there. This board, and this thread, have some stellar contributors worthy of mention.

Got to admit, that would be one heck of a book. Too bad the chances of it ever happening are lower than those of the DGP products being released on CD someday. :nonono:

And we all are poorer for that.

 

[robject]

I've been wrestling for over a day now with how I can explain my position. If you and I sat down with a couple of beers and chatted for a quarter hour or so, I'm sure I could explain myself. Trying to do the same succinctly in a post has got me stumped, but I'm going to try anyway.

[...]

All this nonsense means I can't [enjoy my hobby if I engage in anything resembling commerce regarding it].

Next time you're in Plano, Texas, let's try to have that beer. I suspect 'Daryen' and David Smart would like to come along, too.

Though it is promotional (although... what scrap of text about Traveller isn't?), Mongoose has a free periodic e-newsletter called Signs and Portents. You can probably arrange with Matt to have a submission be truly 'gratis', even anonymous (or pseudonymous). Would that be worth investigating?

 

[robject]

I find myself in full agreement with you Bill.

Virtually everything I have ever written for Traveller has been posted for free on these boards in the hope that people will find some of it useful.

I have taken part in playtests and the like but always freely. I choose to spend my hobby time doing stuff like this because it is fun.

I understand Bill, I think.

As for me, there came a point where I knew some parts of Traveller enough to want to help if there was help for me to give. This is where I am in Traveller version 5's playtesting: I am producing piles of starships, smallcraft, vehicles, armor, weapons, aliens, and robots using the rules; this tests the system out so that when it's past this beta phase, it will be better for it. And I have fodder for adventures.

The difference as I see it is that there's a chance my stuff will catch loopholes or errors. Once T5 is released, fixes will be more difficult. I want it to be high quality before it gets there. But if I was the lone editor, T5 would be sunk. Thank goodness we have a few hundred pairs of eyes available to comb over their favorite topics.

And still there's room for more.

 

[far-trader]

...But I can't help but think that an article from Whipsnade, S4 and far-trader on playing MGT "old school" would be an incredible read; rancke could put something together on the "traditional" OTU, and Rob and I could review and kibbitz. Mike Wightman and Aramis certain are deserving of a role in this Traveller fantasy. I've probably left someone out, and I didn't mean to offend you there. This board, and this thread, have some stellar contributors worthy of mention.

Interesting idea. And I started out excited by Mongoose with several ideas, tried to participate on their forum and offer my knowledge, and got fed up due to a few members and issues there.

I eventually (recently) decided to give Mongoose another fair try. Bought the book, tried to figure out the overly complicated license deals, lurked the forums a couple times to see if things had changed (didn't look like it), made some contributions here. I even tried to reason with drh (to no effect). I'm surprised... no, anymore said on that and I'd have to report myself too. So again the actions of a few, here instead of on the Mongoose boards, have me thoroughly disgusted again with the whole idea of having any involvement with Mongoose Traveller.

I just can't imagine having any fun participating with some people so it's more their loss than mine. And I don't think I'm alone in that. Yeah, you probably have the odds of it happening pegged about right. If I could I'd sell my Mongoose PDF cause it looks like I'll never crack it open again. At the very least I'd like to make it clear despite my purchase having counted towards that still undefined doing fantastic sales it is one more (of many I suspect) that is really a non-fan and shouldn't be counted as such. At least I only paid half price for it so I don't feel too ripped off. I'll find my fun elsewhere.

 

[Supplement Four]

And since you are putting yourself forward... let's talk about you...

S4:

You know CT in and out, backwards, forwards, etc. If a textual reference was needed, you'd probably be a better source than Marc. And rather than be a strength and resource to the game and new fans coming in with the Mongoose release, you have chosen to become a thorn.

I think that's a significant loss to our game. I don't love everything Marc's done with T5 (although the parts I didn't like at first are growing on me), and I definitely don't like some parts of the various Mongoose release. But that doesn't excuse me from trying to help improve them, and it certainly doesn't free me to attack them.

I respect your knowledge of the game and setting, but I continue to be amazed, disappointed and astounded by your insistence on being part of the problem instead of the solution. And I really, really wonder what could be accomplished if you had been willing to walk the other path.

To be completely telling, I don't like being "on the other side". But, in the core of my heart, I really don't like, at all, what Mongoose is doing with Traveller.

It's worse than what TNE did. It really feels like I'm a rock guy, and they're sampling the rock greats into disco and rap songs.

I have opened my mind and heart many time to Mongoose Traveller, looking, hoping, searching, for something worthy of supporting. With each release, they continue to disappoint me.

I believe in Mongoose as a company. I love what they've done with the Conan game. But, they're not changing the Howard mythos, either. They're adding to it as one would hope they would.

Not so with Traveller. In my view, it's like taking the Alien and Aliens films and making a sequel like Alien Resurrection. It's just not the way to go.





But, I'll tell you what, though...

I understand your words above. I will endeavor to cease being the "thorn" that you speak of. I don't think Mongoose Traveller interests me enough to spend my limited spare time "trying to make it better" as you ask--because, really, what needs to be changed is Mongoose's mindset with regards to the game. They're not hard core Traveller fans, and they have no problem changing things that should not be touched, or adding to the game things that shouldn't be there.

But, I can go my own way and just talk about CT from here on out.

As much as it may not seem like it, I really don't like the flame.

The "problem", though, in my view, isn't me and the growing number of people starting to dislike MGT. It's Mongoose. It's their production quality plus their agenda to change Traveller into something that its not and shouldn't be.

As true as that may be, in my view, I'll agree with what you've said above and turn off the torch that lights the flames from this end.

"Reason" does mean something to me.

 

[Qstor2]

I didn't see this until now. One part of S&A says psionics are rare amoung Aslan. MGT Aslan says that psionics are unheard of amoung Aslan. Sounds like nearly the same thing. Ok to me.

If they miss a few dates for Vargr settlements. I think that can be overlooked.

I preordered it. I'm still happy with the preview. And looking forward to it.

Mike

 

[rancke]

I didn't see this until now. One part of S&A says psionics are rare amoung Aslan. MGT Aslan says that psionics are unheard of among Aslan. Sounds like nearly the same thing. Ok to me.

'Rare' = 'unheard of'? Really?

The English language must be a lot weirder than I thought it was.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

I like what Mongoose is doing.
Customer relations seem very good.
Product support seems very good.
Quality appears to be good too.

I like that they are not focused only on the OTU, but will support other settings too.
It doesn't matter if they are not hardcore fans... they are bringing in something that's needed far more badly; *new* fans. That's something that benefits everyone. And the new fans won't ever see the grognard stuff if they are avoided or driven off.

 

[hdan]

'Rare' = 'unheard of'? Really?

The English language must be a lot weirder than I thought it was.

English is plenty wierd, but in this case, they're not the same.

The preview actually says "virtually unheard-of", which is pretty close to "Rare". The preview then goes on to mention a few known psionic Aslan, but claims they were either mythical or mutations.

As one of those people who "don't care about OTU Cannon" :devil:, though I like playing in the OTU, I'm looking forward to this book. Especially the Trojan Reaches part.

/hdan

 

[robject]

My loyalty isn't towards CotI, it's towards Marc.

[...]

I don't love everything Marc's done with T5 (although the parts I didn't like at first are growing on me), and I definitely don't like some parts of the various Mongoose release. But that doesn't excuse me from trying to help improve them, and it certainly doesn't free me to attack them.

Funnily enough, this is my position as well. And I suspect Don likes some of the bits of T5 that I don't, and vice versa. Once we got over that, we managed to get along pretty well.

 

[Whipsnade]

... it brings the focus back on playing the Aslan...

drh,

If you're interested in discussing the Aslan with an eye towards playing them, please check out this thread. We're already having some thought provoking discussions there and, because it's taking place in the IMTU forum, the OTU need not apply.

Check it out. You may find something fun to do at COTI again. Ishmael has some very intriguing ideas.

And if you don't want to take part or have some "moral principle" about it that precludes you from taking part, then it's your decision and your loss...

Yes, that "moral" stance on my part is my decision alone. I don't see it in "moral" or "immoral" terms however. It's merely a personal belief. It's also a belief I've never expected anyone else to copy or even understand.

I'm fully aware that this belief of mine has resulted in certain decisions that have produced what some would consider "losses". I don't consider any result of those decisions a "loss" naturally because making the decision and accepting it's result means I'm being true to my belief and myself. It's silly, but it's consistent.

I am in no way a religious man, but the belief I wrote about earlier in this thread is part of series of personal tenets I try to live by. I'm not always successful, but I still try.

Anyway, swing by the thread in question and give us your thoughts. You may begin enjoying the game again.


Regards,
Bill

 

[drh]

Check it out. You may find something fun to do at COTI again. Ishmael has some very intriguing ideas.

Thanks, but that kind of detail is way beyond my level of interest. But hey, if you want to go that route then have fun doing it. I'm certainly not going to stop you, or complain about it.

I'm fully aware that this belief of mine has resulted in certain decisions that have produced what some would consider "losses". I don't consider any result of those decisions a "loss" naturally because making the decision and accepting it's result means I'm being true to my belief and myself. It's silly, but it's consistent.

Maybe so. But still, while your input is getting out somehow while sticking to your principles, it's getting out to a very limited audience. If on the other hand, you actually tried to contribute to an official product then your ideas could get out to a wider audience and be officially sanctioned at that! But if you choose not to do that, then at least realise that when you complain so bitterly about what hasn't been done "properly" in a Traveller product, it's because you decided yourself not to attempt to contribute to it through the proper channels.

 

[Britti_Lover]

:rofl:

I pulled out GURPS Aslans and yep, psionics is very limited for Aslan there too.

The new Mongoose Aslan book looks and reads very well thank you.

After 12 happy years of playing GURPS Traveller - I'm converting to Mongoose Traveller.

Both players and people who run gaming conventions are demanding it.

I'm actually going to try to convert as much of it as I can straight over. My MTU is not going to change for example.

I'll still run GURPS, but not for Traveller.

All the Mongoose stuff reads very well and the quality is as good as the GURPS stuff.

This Aslan book is twice as big as my GURPS Aslan book.

Hardbound too.

 

[tbeard1999]

I like what Mongoose is doing.
Customer relations seem very good.
Product support seems very good.
Quality appears to be good too.

I like that they are not focused only on the OTU, but will support other settings too.
It doesn't matter if they are not hardcore fans... they are bringing in something that's needed far more badly; *new* fans. That's something that benefits everyone. And the new fans won't ever see the grognard stuff if they are avoided or driven off.

Boy, I get busy for a couple of weeks and all heck breaks loose.

It's important to accurately restate what the critics are saying IMHO. And in this thread, they seem to be saying that (once again) Mongoose has made numerous spurious changes to Traveller canon.

As I've noted in the past, Traveller aliens are mind-bogglingly lame IMHO, so I don't have a Vargr in this fight.

But *if* the critics are correct, then it seems to me that the most appropriate response from Mongoose supporters is to explain *why* such changes were made. And here's a hint -- you do not succeed if your explanation boils down to "to update the game" or some similarly vapid rationalization. Unless you can tell us why or how this change "updates" the game, then its just empty babble.*

I can see two main reasons for changing established canon -- intentional or accidental.

An intentional change tries to remedy some defect. It may or may not succeed -- and the presence of the defect is typically open to debate. But at least, it shows that the designer was thinking about the material. This type of change would also include resolving contradictory elements of cannon. The contradiction is the "defect" and the new rule is the change.

An accidental change can be the result of bad luck (a missed editing issue, dropped text, etc.), or it can be the result of ignorance of the source material. IMHO, the former comes with the turf, so to speak, so I don't get too worked up about it (unless it's REALLY bad).

But an unfamiliarity with the subject is inexcusable IMHO. There's plenty of source material on the Aslan. And it isn't rocket science. Anyone who writes about a core Traveller alien race has an affirmative obligation IMHO to learn about the topic first.

I'd add that Traveller players tend to be perceptive enough to see through an after-the-fact rationalization. So it's probably best to admit mistakes, rather than try to rationalize them after the fact. Mongoose, has generally been quite good about this in my experience.

*And by the way, it is hypocritical to (in essence) lecture someone about politeness, then insinuate that they are motivated by irrational hatred of Mongoose or simply unable to "change with the times". I'd also note that in no other business is a customer expected to fix the problems in a product or refrain from criticizing it. If my truck is badly designed, my unwillingness/inability to redesign it is irrelevant to my criticism of the design flaws.

And FWIW, in my experience, designing a good game is hard work. And it's a different competency than identifying flaws. In the fanbase for my own A Fistful of TOWs rules, one of our best flaw-spotters is relatively useless when it comes to fixing those flaws. But then, as the designer, it's my job to fix problems.

So demanding that a critic fix flaws he's identified in no way rebuts his criticisms.