Aspects of the Rebellion Era that snap people's disbelief suspenders

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by J Greely:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
2D-Map. Because printing a 3D map useable by gamers in the context of the game is still impossible. Even if such a thing could be printed, I don't think the human visual system could ever comprehend it.

I don't know about that. I think Richard Garfield's Filthy Rich game did a pretty good job of presenting a 3D gameboard in a compact, comprehensible way, and the same could be done for Traveller mapping, simply printing N sector maps on transparency media and stacking them in a binder. In fact, it's already been done, including rules for 3D Jump drives.

Comprehending the data is easy. The hard part is figuring out how to keep the printing costs from pricing your game out of the market.

-j </font>[/QUOTE]Stacking pages together allows a person to visually comprehend one page at a time. Seeing through all the symbols on a transparency will go how deep? When each layer is filled with different symbols in different locations? (Really, I don't know, never having seen this system.) Does the mind comprehend and visually embrace a few layers, and miss the others until they are uncovered?

Futher: Well, I'd consider stacking 2D maps and calling them a 3D map to be less than what I was thinking of when I wrote that printing a 3D map was still impossible, but I'll have to concede that I was also not trying to define was a 3D map was, there being many possibilities.

The example maps provided on the website are undoubtedly realistic. But they don't seem to go very far. I've been told by a variety of people (and read here an there), that once you go beyond 50ly, it's tougher and tougher to pin down the exact locations of smaller stars (like Sol) relative to our own. So extending this map, accurately, could be quite a problem.

The example maps don't seem to be very dense, Traveller-wise. J-3 to J-5 looks, on the face of it, to be necessary equipment, and you aren't going to find an economical tramp freighter loaded with an engine like that (yes, I acknowledge that not all campaigns run on a tramp freighter).

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by J Greely:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
2D-Map. Because printing a 3D map useable by gamers in the context of the game is still impossible. Even if such a thing could be printed, I don't think the human visual system could ever comprehend it.

I don't know about that. I think Richard Garfield's Filthy Rich game did a pretty good job of presenting a 3D gameboard in a compact, comprehensible way, and the same could be done for Traveller mapping, simply printing N sector maps on transparency media and stacking them in a binder. In fact, it's already been done, including rules for 3D Jump drives.

Comprehending the data is easy. The hard part is figuring out how to keep the printing costs from pricing your game out of the market.

-j </font>[/QUOTE]Stacking pages together allows a person to visually comprehend one page at a time. Seeing through all the symbols on a transparency will go how deep? When each layer is filled with different symbols in different locations? (Really, I don't know, never having seen this system.) Does the mind comprehend and visually embrace a few layers, and miss the others until they are uncovered?

Futher: Well, I'd consider stacking 2D maps and calling them a 3D map to be less than what I was thinking of when I wrote that printing a 3D map was still impossible, but I'll have to concede that I was also not trying to define was a 3D map was, there being many possibilities.

The example maps provided on the website are undoubtedly realistic. But they don't seem to go very far. I've been told by a variety of people (and read here an there), that once you go beyond 50ly, it's tougher and tougher to pin down the exact locations of smaller stars (like Sol) relative to our own. So extending this map, accurately, could be quite a problem.

The example maps don't seem to be very dense, Traveller-wise. J-3 to J-5 looks, on the face of it, to be necessary equipment, and you aren't going to find an economical tramp freighter loaded with an engine like that (yes, I acknowledge that not all campaigns run on a tramp freighter).

 

[jgreely]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Stacking pages together allows a person to visually comprehend one page at a time. Seeing through all the symbols on a transparency will go how deep? When each layer is filled with different symbols in different locations?

How many jumps will the players make in a single gaming session? Personally, I figure that the mapping will be done on a computer and printed out, which means that the data can be processed to produce an index that goes in the back of the binder. You could even generate extended world descriptions that listed all of the neighbors at J1, J2, etc.

Does the mind comprehend and visually embrace a few layers, and miss the others until they are uncovered?

Probably, but since the mind has plenty of time to flip back and forth between sheets while plotting a course, I doubt there's much room for confusion. Realistically, unless you're wargaming fleet actions, your evening is not going to revolve around figuring out whether the Fizzlegrib system is Jump-3 Up-Spinward-Coreward, or Jump-4 Up-Rimward-Coreward.

Well, I'd consider stacking 2D maps and calling them a 3D map to be less than what I was thinking of when I wrote that printing a 3D map was still impossible,

In that case I won't tell you about my plan to buy one of those 3D laser engraving systems that have started to turn up on the market.

-j

 

[jgreely]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Stacking pages together allows a person to visually comprehend one page at a time. Seeing through all the symbols on a transparency will go how deep? When each layer is filled with different symbols in different locations?

How many jumps will the players make in a single gaming session? Personally, I figure that the mapping will be done on a computer and printed out, which means that the data can be processed to produce an index that goes in the back of the binder. You could even generate extended world descriptions that listed all of the neighbors at J1, J2, etc.

Does the mind comprehend and visually embrace a few layers, and miss the others until they are uncovered?

Probably, but since the mind has plenty of time to flip back and forth between sheets while plotting a course, I doubt there's much room for confusion. Realistically, unless you're wargaming fleet actions, your evening is not going to revolve around figuring out whether the Fizzlegrib system is Jump-3 Up-Spinward-Coreward, or Jump-4 Up-Rimward-Coreward.

Well, I'd consider stacking 2D maps and calling them a 3D map to be less than what I was thinking of when I wrote that printing a 3D map was still impossible,

In that case I won't tell you about my plan to buy one of those 3D laser engraving systems that have started to turn up on the market.

-j

 

[jgreely]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Stacking pages together allows a person to visually comprehend one page at a time. Seeing through all the symbols on a transparency will go how deep? When each layer is filled with different symbols in different locations?

How many jumps will the players make in a single gaming session? Personally, I figure that the mapping will be done on a computer and printed out, which means that the data can be processed to produce an index that goes in the back of the binder. You could even generate extended world descriptions that listed all of the neighbors at J1, J2, etc.

Does the mind comprehend and visually embrace a few layers, and miss the others until they are uncovered?

Probably, but since the mind has plenty of time to flip back and forth between sheets while plotting a course, I doubt there's much room for confusion. Realistically, unless you're wargaming fleet actions, your evening is not going to revolve around figuring out whether the Fizzlegrib system is Jump-3 Up-Spinward-Coreward, or Jump-4 Up-Rimward-Coreward.

Well, I'd consider stacking 2D maps and calling them a 3D map to be less than what I was thinking of when I wrote that printing a 3D map was still impossible,

In that case I won't tell you about my plan to buy one of those 3D laser engraving systems that have started to turn up on the market.

-j

 

[RainOfSteel]

J Greely,

Oh! I see.

You were speaking strictly of course finding. Or, at least, there is the appearance to me that this is what you were speaking of. Yes, paging through a few sheets would handle simple things like the PCs figuring out where they were going next.

I was thinking a little of that, but only a little. To the greater part I was thinking, as a GM, of the time I spend staring at a map and just thinking up stuff that happens upon that map. In interstellar terms, it usually means fleets of ships maneuvering for battle, groups of freighters following trade routes, and X-Boats/Couriers following the established lines of communications.

For me, this is a holistic process that involes looking at the map, and knowledge of what is upon that map. I can do this with the 2D image of Charted Space, but not with something that, in order to continue on as fully realistic, is going to be at least one thousand pages thick (500 parsecs above and 500 parsecs below the plane of the galactic ecliptic . . . although I'm pretty sure it wouldn't divide into exact halves, as I think Sol is not exactly on the galactic ecliptic). I don't believe I could do it with a huge stack of sheets, especially given that each individual sector is going to be an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at minimum (small scale dot-views stacked atop each other are not going to be too useful for this, at least I'd think so), and even that is scrunching things in terribly.

I don't think I could design for such a huge area of space. The work of design upon the signle layer of the Imperium has as yet been barely scratched, multiplying it by a thousand times (and some divisor for lower density), I don't know . . .

Envisioning borders would also be, quite difficult, and seeing borders is also a hugely important factor for me.


Laser Engraving

I went over to this website. I can't imagine carting around stacks of crystal sheets (not unless I was a rebel lineal descendant escaping across the sandy dunes some twenty thousands years in the future) showing my star maps.

Pricing

Eeek! $89.50 for an 8 x 10 scanned picture! Even the discount for volumes over 200 and I'd be bankrupt before I got done . . .

Let's see, Charted Space, 168 sectors, times 1000 layers (galactic disk is about 3000ly thick out here) = 168,000 images. The volume discount for 200+ is "call", so I'll go with the volume discount for 100+, -42%.

168,000 * $89.50 * .42 = $6,315,120

I guess that printing out only the most relevant portion would be practicle (and right now, even one "sheet" would be far too much for me). Maybe it'll get cheaper as time goes on, but still . . .

 

[RainOfSteel]

J Greely,

Oh! I see.

You were speaking strictly of course finding. Or, at least, there is the appearance to me that this is what you were speaking of. Yes, paging through a few sheets would handle simple things like the PCs figuring out where they were going next.

I was thinking a little of that, but only a little. To the greater part I was thinking, as a GM, of the time I spend staring at a map and just thinking up stuff that happens upon that map. In interstellar terms, it usually means fleets of ships maneuvering for battle, groups of freighters following trade routes, and X-Boats/Couriers following the established lines of communications.

For me, this is a holistic process that involes looking at the map, and knowledge of what is upon that map. I can do this with the 2D image of Charted Space, but not with something that, in order to continue on as fully realistic, is going to be at least one thousand pages thick (500 parsecs above and 500 parsecs below the plane of the galactic ecliptic . . . although I'm pretty sure it wouldn't divide into exact halves, as I think Sol is not exactly on the galactic ecliptic). I don't believe I could do it with a huge stack of sheets, especially given that each individual sector is going to be an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at minimum (small scale dot-views stacked atop each other are not going to be too useful for this, at least I'd think so), and even that is scrunching things in terribly.

I don't think I could design for such a huge area of space. The work of design upon the signle layer of the Imperium has as yet been barely scratched, multiplying it by a thousand times (and some divisor for lower density), I don't know . . .

Envisioning borders would also be, quite difficult, and seeing borders is also a hugely important factor for me.


Laser Engraving

I went over to this website. I can't imagine carting around stacks of crystal sheets (not unless I was a rebel lineal descendant escaping across the sandy dunes some twenty thousands years in the future) showing my star maps.

Pricing

Eeek! $89.50 for an 8 x 10 scanned picture! Even the discount for volumes over 200 and I'd be bankrupt before I got done . . .

Let's see, Charted Space, 168 sectors, times 1000 layers (galactic disk is about 3000ly thick out here) = 168,000 images. The volume discount for 200+ is "call", so I'll go with the volume discount for 100+, -42%.

168,000 * $89.50 * .42 = $6,315,120

I guess that printing out only the most relevant portion would be practicle (and right now, even one "sheet" would be far too much for me). Maybe it'll get cheaper as time goes on, but still . . .

 

[RainOfSteel]

J Greely,

Oh! I see.

You were speaking strictly of course finding. Or, at least, there is the appearance to me that this is what you were speaking of. Yes, paging through a few sheets would handle simple things like the PCs figuring out where they were going next.

I was thinking a little of that, but only a little. To the greater part I was thinking, as a GM, of the time I spend staring at a map and just thinking up stuff that happens upon that map. In interstellar terms, it usually means fleets of ships maneuvering for battle, groups of freighters following trade routes, and X-Boats/Couriers following the established lines of communications.

For me, this is a holistic process that involes looking at the map, and knowledge of what is upon that map. I can do this with the 2D image of Charted Space, but not with something that, in order to continue on as fully realistic, is going to be at least one thousand pages thick (500 parsecs above and 500 parsecs below the plane of the galactic ecliptic . . . although I'm pretty sure it wouldn't divide into exact halves, as I think Sol is not exactly on the galactic ecliptic). I don't believe I could do it with a huge stack of sheets, especially given that each individual sector is going to be an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at minimum (small scale dot-views stacked atop each other are not going to be too useful for this, at least I'd think so), and even that is scrunching things in terribly.

I don't think I could design for such a huge area of space. The work of design upon the signle layer of the Imperium has as yet been barely scratched, multiplying it by a thousand times (and some divisor for lower density), I don't know . . .

Envisioning borders would also be, quite difficult, and seeing borders is also a hugely important factor for me.


Laser Engraving

I went over to this website. I can't imagine carting around stacks of crystal sheets (not unless I was a rebel lineal descendant escaping across the sandy dunes some twenty thousands years in the future) showing my star maps.

Pricing

Eeek! $89.50 for an 8 x 10 scanned picture! Even the discount for volumes over 200 and I'd be bankrupt before I got done . . .

Let's see, Charted Space, 168 sectors, times 1000 layers (galactic disk is about 3000ly thick out here) = 168,000 images. The volume discount for 200+ is "call", so I'll go with the volume discount for 100+, -42%.

168,000 * $89.50 * .42 = $6,315,120

I guess that printing out only the most relevant portion would be practicle (and right now, even one "sheet" would be far too much for me). Maybe it'll get cheaper as time goes on, but still . . .

 

[jgreely]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
I can do this with the 2D image of Charted Space, but not with something that, in order to continue on as fully realistic, is going to be at least one thousand pages thick (500 parsecs above and 500 parsecs below the plane of the galactic ecliptic

I don't think most GMs care about system-level events 500 parsecs away, in any direction. I'm quite certain most players don't, since it would take more than a year and a half of continuous Jump-6 travel for news about those events to reach them. More to the point, even in a 2D Traveller universe, a 500-parsec radius covers hundreds of sectors, and I simply don't believe that anyone is playing Traveller at that scale. Okay, maybe if they have Jump-12 drives and an insatiable desire to play Interstellar Winnebago, but that's it.

I suppose there's room for a poll here: in the course of six months worth of regular gaming, how large is the area of space visited/affected by your players?

If your name isn't E.E. "Doc" Smith, I'm betting it's a lot smaller than 500 parsecs.

-j

 

[jgreely]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
I can do this with the 2D image of Charted Space, but not with something that, in order to continue on as fully realistic, is going to be at least one thousand pages thick (500 parsecs above and 500 parsecs below the plane of the galactic ecliptic

I don't think most GMs care about system-level events 500 parsecs away, in any direction. I'm quite certain most players don't, since it would take more than a year and a half of continuous Jump-6 travel for news about those events to reach them. More to the point, even in a 2D Traveller universe, a 500-parsec radius covers hundreds of sectors, and I simply don't believe that anyone is playing Traveller at that scale. Okay, maybe if they have Jump-12 drives and an insatiable desire to play Interstellar Winnebago, but that's it.

I suppose there's room for a poll here: in the course of six months worth of regular gaming, how large is the area of space visited/affected by your players?

If your name isn't E.E. "Doc" Smith, I'm betting it's a lot smaller than 500 parsecs.

-j

 

[jgreely]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
I can do this with the 2D image of Charted Space, but not with something that, in order to continue on as fully realistic, is going to be at least one thousand pages thick (500 parsecs above and 500 parsecs below the plane of the galactic ecliptic

I don't think most GMs care about system-level events 500 parsecs away, in any direction. I'm quite certain most players don't, since it would take more than a year and a half of continuous Jump-6 travel for news about those events to reach them. More to the point, even in a 2D Traveller universe, a 500-parsec radius covers hundreds of sectors, and I simply don't believe that anyone is playing Traveller at that scale. Okay, maybe if they have Jump-12 drives and an insatiable desire to play Interstellar Winnebago, but that's it.

I suppose there's room for a poll here: in the course of six months worth of regular gaming, how large is the area of space visited/affected by your players?

If your name isn't E.E. "Doc" Smith, I'm betting it's a lot smaller than 500 parsecs.

-j

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by jwdh71:
I must admit, the "Ihatei" invasions got to me as well, as they seemed a little forced. I did eventually stumble around to the idea that it was an actual invasion by large parts of the Heirate, having temporarily given up fighting against each other to take a big bite out of that oh so tempting neighbor...

1) What's so tempting about the Imperium? It's defended by massive forces of TLs two or three higher than your own. Before you get to the Imperium, you cross a band of independent stars roughly 10 parsecs wide. Many of them are empty or near-empty, others are populated by people with lower TL. Why not stop there? And if you go spinwards instead, you get into a region of space with lots of empty worlds. Worlds that has been there ever since the Aslans first crossed the Great Rift two millenia ago, so just why did all those ihatei thart were're told had built up prior to 1117 not go there in the first place? Also note that crossing the Great Rift takes jump-3 ships about a year, which means that to two thirds of the Hierate, the rimward edge is effectively much closer than the trans-rift border. So I have to ask: Just what is so tempting about the Imperium?

2) Do you know the game Diplomacy? Imagine Russia grown to 10 units and the six other countries having 4 units each. The all agree to give up fighting each other temporarily and move against Russia. Of course, France will have to move its units through Italy and England will pass close by empty German supply centres, but, hey, that'll work, won't it?

BTW, the original description of the Aslans makes the point that they are incapable of uniting, except in the face of common danger. Which, once again, brings me back to my view of the Aslan Hierate as a 4,000 man Diplomacy game...


Hans

 

[Murph]

You are right, there is no way the Aslan could have pulled it off. The TL difference is just too great, it would be like WWI Germany attempting to take on the current day US military.

 

[Murph]

You are right, there is no way the Aslan could have pulled it off. The TL difference is just too great, it would be like WWI Germany attempting to take on the current day US military.

 

[Murph]

You are right, there is no way the Aslan could have pulled it off. The TL difference is just too great, it would be like WWI Germany attempting to take on the current day US military.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
1) What's so tempting about the Imperium? It's defended by massive forces of TLs two or three higher than your own. Before you get to the Imperium, you cross a band of independent stars roughly 10 parsecs wide. Many of them are empty or near-empty, others are populated by people with lower TL. Why not stop there? And if you go spinwards instead, you get into a region of space with lots of empty worlds. Worlds that has been there ever since the Aslans first crossed the Great Rift two millenia ago, so just why did all those ihatei thart were're told had built up prior to 1117 not go there in the first place? Also note that crossing the Great Rift takes jump-3 ships about a year, which means that to two thirds of the Hierate, the rimward edge is effectively much closer than the trans-rift border. So I have to ask: Just what is so tempting about the Imperium?

Actually, there are reasonable in-game reasons for a lot of these questions.

The buffer worlds had never been taken previously because they were protected by the Imperium. The Imperium wanted those buffer worlds to be independent so as to be an actual buffer. When the Aslan clans attack the Imperial worlds, the buffer worlds are also taken (for pretty much "free"). So they aren't forgotten, they are just such small potatoes, they aren't explicitly described. But if you do notice, they are pretty much all taken.

The reason they Aslan want established worlds rather than empty worlds is, quite simply, because they are existing markets. Aslan (as a whole) are as ecomonically agressive as they can be militarily. If populated worlds are ripe for the taking, then they will be given precidence over empty worlds.

Also, don't forget that many of the Aslan clans detest the treaty (I forget the name) that was signed between the Heirate and the Imperium. Given their "long memories", if they think they see a chance to strike the Imperium, some would do so just because it is vulnerable.

Finally, don't forget that much of the space spinward is already occupied. Yes, they should be easier pickings than the mighty Imperium, but they are also not in chaos and would likely mount a more fanatical defense (a la the Floriani). The fractured Imperium would look to be much less focused.

So there are some good reasons for the Imperial worlds to be tempting. Of course, this only deals with why some would try, it doesn't address how they could succeed. I still think it would be possible, considering the stated of the DoD (and its incompetant leadership), as long it is a full-on military invasion by coordinating Aslan clans. The ihatei are merely occupying forces.

Also, this only takes the trans-rift powers into consideration. I wholeheartedly agree that any clans on the rimward-side of the Heirate would be idiots for sending their ihatei across the Rift. I would make much more sense to just send them rimward. There is still many sectors of space just waiting to be developed in that direction.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
1) What's so tempting about the Imperium? It's defended by massive forces of TLs two or three higher than your own. Before you get to the Imperium, you cross a band of independent stars roughly 10 parsecs wide. Many of them are empty or near-empty, others are populated by people with lower TL. Why not stop there? And if you go spinwards instead, you get into a region of space with lots of empty worlds. Worlds that has been there ever since the Aslans first crossed the Great Rift two millenia ago, so just why did all those ihatei thart were're told had built up prior to 1117 not go there in the first place? Also note that crossing the Great Rift takes jump-3 ships about a year, which means that to two thirds of the Hierate, the rimward edge is effectively much closer than the trans-rift border. So I have to ask: Just what is so tempting about the Imperium?

Actually, there are reasonable in-game reasons for a lot of these questions.

The buffer worlds had never been taken previously because they were protected by the Imperium. The Imperium wanted those buffer worlds to be independent so as to be an actual buffer. When the Aslan clans attack the Imperial worlds, the buffer worlds are also taken (for pretty much "free"). So they aren't forgotten, they are just such small potatoes, they aren't explicitly described. But if you do notice, they are pretty much all taken.

The reason they Aslan want established worlds rather than empty worlds is, quite simply, because they are existing markets. Aslan (as a whole) are as ecomonically agressive as they can be militarily. If populated worlds are ripe for the taking, then they will be given precidence over empty worlds.

Also, don't forget that many of the Aslan clans detest the treaty (I forget the name) that was signed between the Heirate and the Imperium. Given their "long memories", if they think they see a chance to strike the Imperium, some would do so just because it is vulnerable.

Finally, don't forget that much of the space spinward is already occupied. Yes, they should be easier pickings than the mighty Imperium, but they are also not in chaos and would likely mount a more fanatical defense (a la the Floriani). The fractured Imperium would look to be much less focused.

So there are some good reasons for the Imperial worlds to be tempting. Of course, this only deals with why some would try, it doesn't address how they could succeed. I still think it would be possible, considering the stated of the DoD (and its incompetant leadership), as long it is a full-on military invasion by coordinating Aslan clans. The ihatei are merely occupying forces.

Also, this only takes the trans-rift powers into consideration. I wholeheartedly agree that any clans on the rimward-side of the Heirate would be idiots for sending their ihatei across the Rift. I would make much more sense to just send them rimward. There is still many sectors of space just waiting to be developed in that direction.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
1) What's so tempting about the Imperium? It's defended by massive forces of TLs two or three higher than your own. Before you get to the Imperium, you cross a band of independent stars roughly 10 parsecs wide. Many of them are empty or near-empty, others are populated by people with lower TL. Why not stop there? And if you go spinwards instead, you get into a region of space with lots of empty worlds. Worlds that has been there ever since the Aslans first crossed the Great Rift two millenia ago, so just why did all those ihatei thart were're told had built up prior to 1117 not go there in the first place? Also note that crossing the Great Rift takes jump-3 ships about a year, which means that to two thirds of the Hierate, the rimward edge is effectively much closer than the trans-rift border. So I have to ask: Just what is so tempting about the Imperium?

Actually, there are reasonable in-game reasons for a lot of these questions.

The buffer worlds had never been taken previously because they were protected by the Imperium. The Imperium wanted those buffer worlds to be independent so as to be an actual buffer. When the Aslan clans attack the Imperial worlds, the buffer worlds are also taken (for pretty much "free"). So they aren't forgotten, they are just such small potatoes, they aren't explicitly described. But if you do notice, they are pretty much all taken.

The reason they Aslan want established worlds rather than empty worlds is, quite simply, because they are existing markets. Aslan (as a whole) are as ecomonically agressive as they can be militarily. If populated worlds are ripe for the taking, then they will be given precidence over empty worlds.

Also, don't forget that many of the Aslan clans detest the treaty (I forget the name) that was signed between the Heirate and the Imperium. Given their "long memories", if they think they see a chance to strike the Imperium, some would do so just because it is vulnerable.

Finally, don't forget that much of the space spinward is already occupied. Yes, they should be easier pickings than the mighty Imperium, but they are also not in chaos and would likely mount a more fanatical defense (a la the Floriani). The fractured Imperium would look to be much less focused.

So there are some good reasons for the Imperial worlds to be tempting. Of course, this only deals with why some would try, it doesn't address how they could succeed. I still think it would be possible, considering the stated of the DoD (and its incompetant leadership), as long it is a full-on military invasion by coordinating Aslan clans. The ihatei are merely occupying forces.

Also, this only takes the trans-rift powers into consideration. I wholeheartedly agree that any clans on the rimward-side of the Heirate would be idiots for sending their ihatei across the Rift. I would make much more sense to just send them rimward. There is still many sectors of space just waiting to be developed in that direction.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
The buffer worlds had never been taken previously because they were protected by the Imperium.

IIRC that has never been stated anywhere, but I agree 100%. That's the only possible explanation I can see for how they could've remained independent. But you miss the implication: The Imperium has not only been able to defend its own worlds from Aslan ihatei, it has also been able to defend the worlds in the Buffer Zone. What does that tell you about the strength of the ihatei.

The Imperium wanted those buffer worlds to be independent so as to be an actual buffer. When the Aslan clans attack the Imperial worlds, the buffer worlds are also taken (for pretty much "free").

No, not for free. They 'soaked up' umpteen ihatei who felt that getting land from worlds they actually had a shot at invading was a much better proposition than getting shot at by Imperial defense forces.

So they aren't forgotten, they are just such small potatoes, they aren't explicitly described. But if you do notice, they are pretty much all taken.

Yes, but by whom? And just how many ihatei are there that they can settle multiple millions of square kilometres of prime land and still have enough left over to overwhelm many Imperial worlds?

The reason they Aslan want established worlds rather than empty worlds is, quite simply, because they are existing markets.

Yes, I read that explanation too. I don't believe in it. It runs up against the problem that you don't trade with Aslans that you're busy shooting at and the other kind of Aslans (the buying kind) need valaubles to buy land.

Aslan (as a whole) are as ecomonically agressive as they can be militarily. If populated worlds are ripe for the taking, then they will be given precedence over empty worlds.

The point is that a world with a developed economy isn't ripe for the taking, because it can defend itself.

Also, don't forget that many of the Aslan clans detest the treaty (I forget the name) that was signed between the Heirate and the Imperium. Given their "long memories", if they think they see a chance to strike the Imperium, some would do so just because it is vulnerable.

But its not. Vulnerable I mean. At least, not nearly as vulnerable as the independent worlds. Just what does an ihatei admiral want, land or revenge? More to the point, what does his wives want?

Finally, don't forget that much of the space spinward is already occupied. Yes, they should be easier pickings than the mighty Imperium, but they are also not in chaos and would likely mount a more fanatical defense (a la the Floriani). The fractured Imperium would look to be much less focused.[/QB]

I was talking about the sectors further spinward than the Floriani League. And the Domain of Deneb is not in disarray. We're back to Norris stripping the border subsectors of everything and leaving them stripped for years of Zhodani non-activity!


Hans

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
The buffer worlds had never been taken previously because they were protected by the Imperium.

IIRC that has never been stated anywhere, but I agree 100%. That's the only possible explanation I can see for how they could've remained independent. But you miss the implication: The Imperium has not only been able to defend its own worlds from Aslan ihatei, it has also been able to defend the worlds in the Buffer Zone. What does that tell you about the strength of the ihatei.</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I completely agree. I had tried to be clear, but apparently failed. I am making the base assumption that the ihatei were merely hangers-on. It is actual Aslan clan elements (and major elements at that) that are pursuing the invasion. It is full power Aslan naval fleets clashing with Imperial fleets. Ihatei would be carved up like a side of beef.

Without full Aslan clan fleets involved, all that would happen is a few dozen lopop worlds would suddenly find themselves with Aslan squatters.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So they aren't forgotten, they are just such small potatoes, they aren't explicitly described. But if you do notice, they are pretty much all taken.

Yes, but by whom? And just how many ihatei are there that they can settle multiple millions of square kilometres of prime land and still have enough left over to overwhelm many Imperial worlds?</font>[/QUOTE]Well, obviously all Aslan forces are spread really thin since not a single UWP was changed as a result of the Aslan "invasion". No Aslan governments, no population increases, no nothing.

So obviously, the Aslan install some figurehead governors who ... Actually, I have no idea what they do, since the original governments are left intact.

Oh well, it worked during the Interstellar Wars, it can work here, too.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Also, don't forget that many of the Aslan clans detest the treaty (I forget the name) that was signed between the Heirate and the Imperium. Given their "long memories", if they think they see a chance to strike the Imperium, some would do so just because it is vulnerable.

But its not. Vulnerable I mean. At least, not nearly as vulnerable as the independent worlds. Just what does an ihatei admiral want, land or revenge? More to the point, what does his wives want?</font>[/QUOTE]Well, again, the ihatei aren't really involved in this, other than in name. It is full on Aslan fleets that are pursing this.

And the DoD is in disarray. Everything ever written on it, says so. Plus, you have to remember that the local Admiral was a moron. Yeah, I know, I don't really buy it myself, but there it is. Besides, I have read about stuff even more stupid than all that done in the real world.

So, Saint Norris wasn't infalible. He screwed up, worried about a nonexistant thread and ignored the real threat. It's not like that hasn't happened before. So Norris did it too; oh well.

And, going by the UWPs again, it is quite obvious that much of the conquest was done through negotiation. Even if all of the DoD forces left the Trojan Reaches, it would be an open question as to whether the Aslan clan fleets could take out Tobia. One is pretty much forced to assume Tobia wasn't conquered outright, but instead reached a negotiated settlement.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Finally, don't forget that much of the space spinward is already occupied. Yes, they should be easier pickings than the mighty Imperium, but they are also not in chaos and would likely mount a more fanatical defense (a la the Floriani). The fractured Imperium would look to be much less focused.

I was talking about the sectors further spinward than the Floriani League. And the Domain of Deneb is not in disarray. We're back to Norris stripping the border subsectors of everything and leaving them stripped for years of Zhodani non-activity!</font>[/QUOTE]So am I. The Beyond sector is full of populated worlds and interstellar governments. It has parts of nine(!) interstellar polities, plus the Aslan. It will take lots of effort to take them all out, too.

See above on Norris. So he screwed up. Wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last. Plus, no matter how stupid it is, we are stuck with it.

The real trick is to see if you can make a story hang with the given information, and make it at least close to reasonable. And, if we are willing to assume a full Aslan invasion (i.e. not just ihatei) and assume that some worlds (Tobia) had a negotiated settlement, then we can have a story that works.

Is it perfect? No. But it works at least as well as some stuff that actually happened.