Attack or Defend?

[mad13142000]

Surpsrise is nice, but CAN'T be counted upon in a military engagement. Pearl Harbor? The US knew an attack was imminent. The political wrangling had driven it to that point. So, IF the commander had taken even the most minor of precautions, the Japs would have gotten killed. (Yeah, go ahead and debate me - The FACT is that if they hadn't been lounging around on a 'normal' Sunday, had listened to the destroyer commander, had listened to the Radar operator, had even the most remotely alert base - not parking all planes in a big clump, HAVING a patrol in the air - no, if a military does things correctly, surprise is not all that...)
Look at Iraq - Did we take the Iraqis by 'surprise'? No, they KNEW an attack was coming, just not when - It's not keeping someone on alert forever - It's about NOT being lazy enough to assume things - The Iraqis (for all the patheticness of their military) knew when the US attacked - if they HAD the stuff to oppose, then they would have used it...
My point was, stuff just doesn't fall out of the sky - If your forces are working, you have time to ID and react to things. You TRY to make the enemy 'see' what you want, but you can't RELY on it...So if my forces are on patrol where they are supposed to be, not all hanging out in port, then I can ID when you jump in. I now have time to react to your move, instead of being caught with my ships in port as sitting ducks. If my pickets spying on YOU notice your initial deployment, I have even more time, as my picket has already jumped in a day ahead of you.
If I don't have a picket in your system, don't pay attention to the diplomacy, don't have a plan, don't schedule regular drills, keep all my ships in port to make life 'easy', THEN yes, I'm going to be surprised, and possibly very defeated.

-MADDog

 

[trader jim]

ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK, AND EAT THE PRISONERS!!!!

 

[vegascat]

Suprise can be the most important thing during an attack. Suprise can consist of many different things, other than the opening shot of an unannounced war.
Direction of attack Hit em from behind
Timing of attack Attack three days ahead of their schedule
Location of attack Attack orbital power sats instead of asteroid belt colonies
Target of attack Attack orbital power sats instead of the Parlament house
Type of attack Attack with infiltrated BD equiped troops instead of a missile bombardment
Force of attack If they expect 10 100T scouts and get 2 BBs?
Who is attacking Attack by you instead of the Zhodani

Leaking bad information to your opponent can be even more effective than total suprise, like Pearl Harbor.
IF you really want to eliminate resistance, use a combination of misdirection and outright lies. An exremely effective tactic might be to cause information to be given to your target that he is about to be attacked by a different system and he has just enough time to launch a preemtive strike. He takes all offensive units to the wrong system, attacking someone who will be your friend when you come to his rescue, while leaving his home nearly defensless.

 

[womble]

Hi Maddog.

Sure, properly deployed pickets and scouts and stuff can tell you when the bandits arrive in-system. My point was solely to address what appeared to be Soloprobe's misconception that approach in J-space could be detected prior to emergence.

Luck
R

 

[vegascat]

A sensor system that could detect ships approching by jump would be a nice ancient artifact for some chumps "PCs" to discover.

 

[Liam Devlin]

In a word: Defend.
A properly maintained defence wins when it achieves this goal--"defeats enemy attack allowing resumption of offensive operations on your side."
Like Sethra lavode/Brust's character's take. I do concur. In Traveller, with mines, SDB's, sensor platforms, and vigilance, and some low tech ingenuity vs Hi tech reliance on gadgets, I guarantee you a run for your money, or a costly stalemate. Or you can bypass me & my system..and then have to commit forces to keep me contained!

 

[Tobias]

1. I don't see mines as useful space weapons. As popular as the concept is in certain areas of SF, an immobile explosive device is a thoroughly useless weapon in space.
2. "Low-tech ingenuity vs. High-Tech reliance on gadgets" sounds great for cheesy Hollywood movies, but it doesn't work in real life. Ask Saddam about it
Yeah, yeah, I know. Vietnam. I'll just say that the war was lost for reasons beyond pure military strength and that the Vietnamese weren't all jungle guerilla fighters.
3. By embracing the principle of always defending you rob yourself of the strategic initiative. In Traveller this is a doubly grave error because of the long interstellar communications lag.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Dynamo]

A good Admiral also needs to consider the need for the conquest of a heavily defended and developed world. Unless technological improvements or innovation can be stolen or immediate material benefits can be gained the best policy is to simply decimate the planets industrial base and population centers and bypass it. Fuel is abundent enough in most inhabited systems to allow such a manuver. By tying up you forces in a meaningless assault you slow your momentum and put yourself at great risk. However no matter what path an attacker takes he is always at the advantage for he chooses the battlefield.

 

[soloprobe]

Womble,
Astronomers today can see planets,stars and, Nebulae Billions of Miles into space. You can see stars light years away from the planet's surafce(Some of us call it stargazing). With the right optics you can see satelites and even spacecraft moving through space. Why is Jumpspace opaque? Because you think the cannon says so?

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Tobias:
1. I don't see mines as useful space weapons. As popular as the concept is in certain areas of SF, an immobile explosive device is a thoroughly useless weapon in space.

try these on for size lad..

http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/vera/vera6502.html
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/vera/vera6501.html
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/vera/vera6503.html
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/vera/vera6504.html
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/vera/vera6505.html
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/vera/vera6506.html
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/vera/vera6507.html
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/vera/vera6508.html

2. "Low-tech ingenuity vs. High-Tech reliance on gadgets" sounds great for cheesy Hollywood movies, but it doesn't work in real life. Ask Saddam about it
Yeah, yeah, I know. Vietnam. I'll just say that the war was lost for reasons beyond pure military strength and that the Vietnamese weren't all jungle guerilla fighters.

900 days at Leningrad, Stalingrad, TL-6 vs TL-5..
morale and determination cannot be denied as factors there, nor the weather.<shrug>.
as fro low tech, try this nasty surprise of the Solomani-a hunterkiller mine using TL-8 maglev kinetic energy..
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/hana/hana7500.html
then again this thread on CoTI:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000080;p=1
right up me alley too, once ye've landed with what remians of yer "fleet" or "Task force"..

3. By embracing the principle of always defending you rob yourself of the strategic initiative. In Traveller this is a doubly grave error because of the long interstellar communications lag.Regards,

Tobias

__________________________________________________
have you ever defended a piece of territory? It is possible if time and m,aterials allow for a defender to stop an attack and return the initiative to his/her side. THAT is the objective of a defense--to halt an attacker, and regain the intitiative.
Defense is not just "we wait and repel.." but patrol aggressively, anticipate and plan--the more time you have to prepare, the harder it is to take them out..and counterattack..

A proper defense chews the attacker up before he can set foot face to face with you, then you kick what remains to ashes, and chase his logistics and rear elements to hell and back out of there!

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/vera/vera6502.html etc.

These are excellent examples of "thoroughly useless". Genuine waste of valuable resources. A missile with a warhead of similar size would cost marginally more and actually have a chance of hitting something that doesn't "accidentally" stumble into its was.

Also: There is no Traveller but Classic Traveller, and High Guard is its' Starship design and combat system.

900 days at Leningrad, Stalingrad, TL-6 vs TL-5..
morale and determination cannot be denied as factors there, nor the weather.

What now, Leningrad or Stalingrad? In both cases, tech levels were about equivalent on both sides.

In the case of Leningrad, we have the Germans unwilling and unable to committ major resources to
the conquest of the city, thanks in part to another brilliant idea of the Gröfaz.

In the case of Stalingrad, the main (if not the only) factor was the immense numerical superiority of the Soviets. "Low-Tech ingenuity" has nothing to do with it. If the Soviets had the same number of troops as the Germans, they would have had no chance at all.

as fro low tech, try this nasty surprise of the Solomani-a hunterkiller mine using TL-8 maglev kinetic energy..
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/hana/hana7500.html

a) This is technically unfeasible.
b) This breaks the rules it was designed with.
c) This would actually not be a thread to any real high-tech warship.
optional
d) There is no Traveller but Classic Traveller, and High Guard is its' Starship design and combat system.

have you ever defended a piece of territory?

Me, personally? No. You neither, I assume. Even if one of us had, it would not be relevant, because we're not arguing about the tactical merits, but the strategic advantages of defense.

It is possible if time and m,aterials allow for a defender to stop an attack and return the initiative to his/her side. THAT is the objective of a defense--to halt an attacker, and regain the intitiative.

Oh, definitely. But it is even better to find yourself in possession of the Initiative to begin with. That's why a surprise attack is an advantage, not a disadvantage.
Being on the defensive, you need stronger resources, a longer breath than the attacker to survive. If you are on the defensive and have less resources, you're practically doomed.

Dooooomed.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Tobias]

I have to make some amends: Some of those "Space Mines" actually are missiles.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Tobias:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/vera/vera6502.html etc.

These are excellent examples of "thoroughly useless". Genuine waste of valuable resources. A missile with a warhead of similar size would cost marginally more and actually have a chance of hitting something that doesn't "accidentally" stumble into its was.

Also: There is no Traveller but Classic Traveller, and High Guard is its' Starship design and combat system.

Spoken like a true canonista.<grins/bows>
ye argue with a Traveller heretic, mind ye--ye've been warned..<evil smile>! there is IN your mind..no other traveller than CT & HG..LOL..lack of imagination on your part is *not* my fault!


</font>[/QUOTE]What now, Leningrad or Stalingrad? In both cases, tech levels were about equivalent on both sides.In the case of Leningrad, we have the Germans unwilling and unable to committ major resources to the conquest of the city, thanks in part to another brilliant idea of the Gröfaz.

In the case of Stalingrad, the main (if not the only) factor was the immense numerical superiority of the Soviets. "Low-Tech ingenuity" has nothing to do with it. If the Soviets had the same number of troops as the Germans, they would have had no chance at all.

defense is not just numbers--STALINGRAD forced them to a halt, then the Russki'as took the offensive..YOU missed the forest for the trees in my example lad.,<sighs>


as fro low tech, try this nasty surprise of the Solomani-a hunterkiller mine using TL-8 maglev kinetic energy..
http://www.downport.com/~bard/bard/hana/hana7500.html [/QUOTE]a) This is technically unfeasible.
b) This breaks the rules it was designed with.
c) This would actually not be a thread to any real high-tech warship.
optional
d) There is no Traveller but Classic Traveller, and High Guard is its' Starship design and combat system.

'Scuse me, my karma ran over yer dogma aways ago my fine canon bound..acquaintance<WEG>!

have you ever defended a piece of territory?

Me, personally? No. You neither, I assume. [/qb]

inccorect sir.I have.

Even if one of us had, it would not be relevant, because we're not arguing about the tactical merits, but the strategic advantages of defense.

It is possible if time and m,aterials allow for a defender to stop an attack and return the initiative to his/her side. THAT is the objective of a defense--to halt an attacker, and regain the intitiative.

Oh, definitely. But it is even better to find yourself in possession of the Initiative to begin with. That's why a surprise attack is an advantage, not a disadvantage.
Being on the defensive, you need stronger resources, a longer breath than the attacker to survive. If you are on the defensive and have less resources, you're practically doomed.

Dooooomed.

Regards,

Tobias [/QUOTE]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ah but you cannot in battle as inlife, always choose who strikes first..
so you must prepare..
as they say best defense is good offense--but in order to do the one, ye must know the other already! THUS too military preparedness!
<as pericles of Athens said, "First above all, go armed.">

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Spoken like a true canonista.

Aside from the fact that canon is something to be considered, because there is no base for discussion otherwise, these weapons are useless under TNE rules as well.

defense is not just numbers--STALINGRAD forced them to a halt, then the Russki'as took the offensive..

Indeed. By pouring in massive numbers of troops. Without those massive numbers, all Soviet "heroics" would have been for naught.

'Scuse me, my karma ran over yer dogma aways ago

Yadda yadda. Mind tackling my other three, non-joking, points.

inccorect sir.I have.

Who, where, when and what?

Ah but you cannot in battle as inlife, always choose who strikes first...

No you can't. But you'd better try. Defense is something that is forced on you by the enemy. Offense is indicative of your own choosing.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Tobias:
I have to make some amends: Some of those "Space Mines" actually are missiles.

Regards,

Tobias

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tobias, I forgive thee..<bows>

 

[Burocrate]

Attack:

Misson Objectives-Smash&Grab or Expansionism?

Normally very conservitive, however the tide of initative and variability of options draws me away from the Defense camp. Move in, blitz defensive parimiter, engage responding assets(fear planet based meson guns), control the system before touching the soil. Control orbit, then ruthlessly engage mainworld.

>takes deep breath...calls in rules lawyer.

 

[Elliot]

Defend: You may lose but at least your name will go down in history for your heroism. Everyone remembers the battle of Britain or the Polish cavalry fighting the german panzers on horseback; futile but the stuff of legend.

That an deep site meson guns....

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Tobias:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Aside from the fact that canon is something to be considered, because there is no base for discussion otherwise, these weapons are useless under TNE rules as well.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IYTU, yes, they do not work; IMTU, no-they work fer me.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

defense is not just numbers--STALINGRAD forced them to a halt, then the Russki'as took the offensive..

Indeed. By pouring in massive numbers of troops. Without those massive numbers, all Soviet "heroics" would have been for naught.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WHich isn't the same as technological parity you alluded to between USSR and Nazi germany at the time,-that's using human numbers to throw continuously at an attritional rate and out spend your enemy til he is no more. Either way, the German offensive was blunted/ and the Russians took the ball over in winter of 42-43. The rest is history. The "Heroics" of both sides fill millions of graves IIRC from that war, lest ye are trying to pick a bone here, Tobias. I am not.

inccorect sir.I have.

Who, where, when and what?

I am a serviceman, In the Infantry, and now in the reserves of the same branch, here in the USA. I have defended from fixed and mobile stations, airfields, and Patriot Missile batteries in Kuwait, Egypt, Saudi Arabia.
When, Fall 99-Spring 2000/ and 2001-2002, of late..As well as refresher defensive operations, last month in Training exercise--with 24hrs expected hit time of enemy (as opposed to former doctrine's 72hr expectancy)-and of five companies ours busted the time hack, did our work, laid in mines, and were ready, and did just that--<we were exhausted, but we managed to attriton our OPFOR to nothing by the time they hit the wire. Conversely, a sister company was nearly ovverrun, and we had to send reinforcements to their side to relieve them.>


Ah but you cannot in battle as inlife, always choose who strikes first...</font>[/QUOTE]No you can't. But you'd better try. Defense is something that is forced on you by the enemy. Offense is indicative of your own choosing.

Thus to have a strong defense-and be ready to defend oneself--you may parse it and say, "be pre-emptive"-and parts of that is true. but if it didn't exist, how could one execute such? One can gain the same intel of an imminent attck if one aggressively PLANNED ahead, and took the Devil's LT. seat once in a while to think-If I were the enemy, what would I do?"> and plan accordingly.
Such as responding to you!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Elliot:
Defend: You may lose but at least your name will go down in history for your heroism. Everyone remembers the battle of Britain or the Polish cavalry fighting the german panzers on horseback; futile but the stuff of legend.

That an deep site meson guns....

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Stuff of legend..Thermopylae comes to mind..

 

[Liam Devlin]

speaking of legend, Tobias..I haven't had such a good debate since Ben W Bell and I crossed politics on Random Static! I appreciate the discourse..Stars for you!*****