Auxiliaries and Support Ships

[Vladika]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss auxiliaries and support ships and attempt to develop "rules" for their use. I'd prefer CT/HG2/TCS but any Traveller rules set would be fine. Please note which rules set you are discussing in each post so as to be relevant to all readers/posters.

flykiller expressed an interest in this thread and as I also have a serious interest here it is. I'd ask that we stay on focus and really build a great informative thread!

For historic reasons, and some small relevant prototypical use, I'd propose US Navy hull designations as far as possible.

A good publicly available site is:

http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/abbreviations.htm

 

[McPerth]

As one of the auxiliaries you told about was the Hospital ship, that reminded me an old thread where its role was quite discussed. I quote you (for easy reference) a part of the discussion we have about Hospital Ship doctrine )in this case it was on a small ship universe). The discussion is followed on further posts (mostly among Dean and myself), but intermingled wiht some other matters...

In addition, I would think a ship like this would be primarily to stabilize the basket cases so they can go into the low berth, and to do quick fixes on the minimally injured to return them to service. No point (with the availability of low berths) having a lot of bed space allocated to a recovery function for anyone with moderate to severe injuries that will take a while to heal, unless the ship happens to have the space or a low number of patients.

Dean, I like that. I saw the Type M as a neat hospital ship, but looking at it through the eyes of posters on this thread, it looks like its too small to make a decent 'hospital ship'. So maybe I should tweak it to function purely as a casualty receiving ship.

As this is a small ship universe, I see it as a full hospital ship (albeit a small one), where the personnel recovers from light (and medium) wounds and illness (never forget the non combat related casualties). In most cases recovery time may be of just 2-3 weeks, so being able to rejoin its crewmates in about one jump time (as long as the TF remains together), instead of needing to be transfered to rearguard, spending there that time and then retourning (if possible, as God knows where the ship would be by then), so effectively losing this one crewmember for the ship crew, needing a replacement, and eroding ship crew cohesion once even light casualties begin to mount, even if crew cohesion is not featured in the game.

As such, I'll even suggest to make a stateroom as OR and one as Post Suergery Recovery Unit . In real world they will both need more space that a room, but they don't need as much 'out room space', as the patient has another bed assigned even when there, and he/she will not move anyway when on them.

Another thing I'd feature to any hospital ship (even if it doesn't influence in any way the design, just some more colour) is a more graduable grav system than other ships. Anyone that has had to move immovilized trauma patients will sure agree grav controls would make life quite easier, both for us and for the patients.

EDIT:I also assume most of the ambulatory work is done by the medical personnel on other ships, so I don't care about it

 

[Timerover51]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss auxiliaries and support ships and attempt to develop "rules" for their use. I'd prefer CT/HG2/TCS but any Traveller rules set would be fine. Please note which rules set you are discussing in each post so as to be relevant to all readers/posters.

flykiller expressed an interest in this thread and as I also have a serious interest here it is. I'd ask that we stay on focus and really build a great informative thread!

For historic reasons, and some small relevant prototypical use, I'd propose US Navy hull designations as far as possible.

A good publicly available site is:

http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/abbreviations.htm

First, as you are using Classic Traveller, along with High Guard-2nd edition and Trillion Credit Squadron, as you assuming a small ship Classic universe, or a large ship High Guard/TCS universe. Your logistic auxiliaries are going to be different depending on the size of the warships.

For an understanding of Wet Navy Logistics in the Pacific, which, given the distances and time lags there, are reasonable to use as a basis to start from, you might want to check out the hyperwar website for Beans, Bullets, and Black Oil. The title sums up the primary areas of need for warships of food, ammunition, and fuel. For Traveller, you could title it Ratons, Missiles, and Liquid H.

The reason your auxiliaries are going to be different based on the size of the ships is that rations become a much less critical factor on a large ship than a small one, while one of your large TCS ships is going to burn through ammunition at a pretty good rate, and the fuel requirements are going to be massive. One Traveller dTon can carry enough food for 5 men for one year.

You are also going to have to figure on a large fleet resupply train, continually moving supplies to the forward bases, due to the restrictions posed by Jump Drive jump distances. That fleet supply train is going to need to be protected, along with the forward bases, requiring the ability to move System Defense Boats to them. If you are in a large ship universe, your Battle Rider Tender may spend more time ferrying Battle Riders to the forward bases for their defense than jumping into a fleet engagement.

 

[Vladika]

First, as you are using Classic Traveller, along with High Guard-2nd edition and Trillion Credit Squadron, as you assuming a small ship Classic universe, or a large ship High Guard/TCS universe. Your logistic auxiliaries are going to be different depending on the size of the warships.

For an understanding of Wet Navy Logistics in the Pacific, which, given the distances and time lags there, are reasonable to use as a basis to start from, you might want to check out the hyperwar website for Beans, Bullets, and Black Oil. The title sums up the primary areas of need for warships of food, ammunition, and fuel. For Traveller, you could title it Ratons, Missiles, and Liquid H.

The reason your auxiliaries are going to be different based on the size of the ships is that rations become a much less critical factor on a large ship than a small one, while one of your large TCS ships is going to burn through ammunition at a pretty good rate, and the fuel requirements are going to be massive. One Traveller dTon can carry enough food for 5 men for one year.

You are also going to have to figure on a large fleet resupply train, continually moving supplies to the forward bases, due to the restrictions posed by Jump Drive jump distances. That fleet supply train is going to need to be protected, along with the forward bases, requiring the ability to move System Defense Boats to them. If you are in a large ship universe, your Battle Rider Tender may spend more time ferrying Battle Riders to the forward bases for their defense than jumping into a fleet engagement.

All good points and already considered. A quick Large/Small ship setting (CT/HG) could be handled by looking at AK vs AKL cargo ships.

Welcome, and please remain in the discussion. I think you are one of the few people here who understands Logistics win, or lose, wars.

And finally folks will see the critical need for other than front line combatants, particularly in a campaign setting.

 

[mike wightman]

A few quick thoughts:

first decide what consumables support/supply ships have to provide the fleet:
replacement crew, missiles, spare parts, life support consumables, fuel, drop tanks...

this bit is tricky because the existing rules for this stuff is scant.

Next - will there be a single class of support vessel or will there be a range of sizes and roles? "Oilers", "dipers", munition ships, stores, engineering/repair vessels...

And the last question I have - how many of these things do you need per squadron or per fleet of front line warships?

Interesting thread and its about time we thrashed all this out

 

[rancke]

I suggest first deciding what functions auxiliary vessels will need to fulfil.

Preliminaty list:
Scouting
Courier duty
Escort
Tanker
Troop transport
Goods transport
Picket service (Note: may be the wrong term. I see scouting as spying on the enemy and picketing as preventing the enemy from spying on you).

When we have decided what tasks need to be done we can think about what ships would be built to perform them. Some ship types may perform more than one function.


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

You will also need repair ships, and some form or space tugs to assist ships that have had damage to their maneuver drives. Also, you might want some specialized salvage ships for recovery of derelict ships, both your own and the enemy. The crew of those would have specialized training in ship repair and construction, along with equipment for making basic repairs to a ship's drives and electronics to get it to a recovery point or repair ship. A lot would depend on what sort of weaponry is presumed to be used.

You might also possibly want some specialized refinery ships for the production of refined fuel from planetary water, ice, gas giants, or ice-covered satellites of gas giants.

 

[aramis]

I suggest first deciding what functions auxiliary vessels will need to fulfil.

Preliminaty list:
Scouting
Courier duty
Escort
Tanker
Troop transport
Goods transport
Picket service (Note: may be the wrong term. I see scouting as spying on the enemy and picketing as preventing the enemy from spying on you).

When we have decided what tasks need to be done we can think about what ships would be built to perform them. Some ship types may perform more than one function.


Hans

You missed one (and a very important one): Repair Tenders.

 

[aramis]

You might also possibly want some specialized refinery ships for the production of refined fuel from planetary water, ice, gas giants, or ice-covered satellites of gas giants.

A tanker design almost always includes refining capabilities; all the canonical ones do. (Including, in the boardgame Imperium, the ability to refine from the relatively cool plasma of the outer shells of massive but planetless stars.)

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

I suggest first deciding what functions auxiliary vessels will need to fulfil.

Preliminaty list:
Scouting
Courier duty
Escort
Tanker
Troop transport
Goods transport
Picket service (Note: may be the wrong term. I see scouting as spying on the enemy and picketing as preventing the enemy from spying on you).

When we have decided what tasks need to be done we can think about what ships would be built to perform them. Some ship types may perform more than one function.


Hans

like others have said, a repair ship some sort is an important element.

I'd add both short term and longer term hospital ships to deal with casualties, a foundry/fabrication ship that can build new components to enact repairs (bear in mind the nearest TL 15 planet may be months away...) And a SDB "tender" craft able to support SDBs by acting as a mother ship.

 

[Condottiere]

Auxiliary ships would tend to be built on commercial specs to save costs, or taken up from merchant shipping to make up the numbers in the short term.

Once you get past four hundred tons, there's not much you can save by using standard hulls or modular commercial components.

 

[McPerth]

I suggest first deciding what functions auxiliary vessels will need to fulfil.

Preliminaty list:
Scouting
Courier duty
Escort
Tanker
Troop transport
Goods transport
Picket service (Note: may be the wrong term. I see scouting as spying on the enemy and picketing as preventing the enemy from spying on you).

When we have decided what tasks need to be done we can think about what ships would be built to perform them. Some ship types may perform more than one function.

You missed one (and a very important one): Repair Tenders.

See that a BT with its escorting/carried group will fullfill most of those functions in first line:

• It may deploy its fighters/escorts for picket task, the escorts (being jump capable) even being capable to be used for scouting
• it should have repair/hospital capabilities, as well as tanker capability for its raiders/fighters (even if the raiders themselves must perform the skimming proper)
• I guess they carry quite a lot of supplies for rearming subcrafts (BRs included) and for repairs
• they can ecover cripples for salvage/repair (taking them to bases or making field repairs)
• I expect them to carry also courriers, either carried into the BT (after all they use to be fairly small) or accompaigning them
• they use to have enough ship troops for many missions (under full planetary assaults, off course)

Of course, that does not mean most of those tasks don't need additional, more specific, ships to perform them, as the tenders are too valuable to be used to carry supplies/replacements, etc. forward and back to the bases behind the front lines, or troop carriers to move the large troop numbers needed for larger operations, but I expect them to perform most of front line auxiliary functions, being in fact true mobile bases.

I'd even expect to have some BTs without BR groups for cripples recovery and salvage, as well as to act as mobile forward bases for BBs and cruisers.

In a small ship universe, though, things change a lot, as those mobile bases don't exist anymore...

 

[Vladika]

See that a BT with its escorting/carried group will fullfill most of those functions in first line:

• It may deploy its fighters/escorts for picket task, the escorts (being jump capable) even being capable to be used for scouting
• it should have repair/hospital capabilities, as well as tanker capability for its raiders/fighters (even if the raiders themselves must perform the skimming proper)
• I guess they carry quite a lot of supplies for rearming subcrafts (BRs included) and for repairs
• they can ecover cripples for salvage/repair (taking them to bases or making field repairs)
• I expect them to carry also courriers, either carried into the BT (after all they use to be fairly small) or accompaigning them
• they use to have enough ship troops for many missions (under full planetary assaults, off course)

Of course, that does not mean most of those tasks don't need additional, more specific, ships to perform them, as the tenders are too valuable to be used to carry supplies/replacements, etc. forward and back to the bases behind the front lines, or troop carriers to move the large troop numbers needed for larger operations, but I expect them to perform most of front line auxiliary functions, being in fact true mobile bases.

I'd even expect to have some BTs without BR groups for cripples recovery and salvage, as well as to act as mobile forward bases for BBs and cruisers.

In a small ship universe, though, things change a lot, as those mobile bases don't exist anymore...

While a BT will pick up it's own cripples I would think one or more in the squadron would be assigned to transport the more seriously damaged to rear areas for repair or replacement.

It is a military axiom to effect repair in the unit if possible, otherwise going no further away than the next able echelon. THIS is where auxiliaries and support ships come into the picture.

Also, while a Battle Tender COULD carry out any of the functions McPerth has described it would be a waste of tonnage as the majority of those functions WOULD be handled by auxiliaries and support ships.

• 
  

  [*]It may deploy its fighters/escorts for picket task, the escorts (being jump capable) even being capable to be used for scouting

  
  Fighters on their own carriers. Escorts, those jump capable, operating as such and not carried.
  
  CV, CVL, CVE, Cl, DD, DE, etc.
  
  

  [*]it should have repair/hospital capabilities, as well as tanker capability for its raiders/fighters (even if the raiders themselves must perform the skimming proper)

  
  Fuel [AO, AOE] Hospital[AH, AHP, PECR], Recovery[ATA, ATF, ATS, ATR] Repair [AR, ARS, ARB, ARH, ARV(E), ARV(A)]
  
  
  

  [*]I guess they carry quite a lot of supplies for rearming subcrafts (BRs included) and for repairs

  
  AE, AK, AKL, AKS, AKI, etc.
  
  

  [*]they can ecover cripples for salvage/repair (taking them to bases or making field repairs)

  
  Again; Recovery[ATA, ATF, ATS, ATR] Repair [AR, ARS, ARB, ARH, ARV(E), ARV(A)]
  
  
  

  [*]I expect them to carry also courriers, either carried into the BT (after all they use to be fairly small) or accompaigning them

  
  Accompanying them with possibly their own Tender.
  
  

  [*]they use to have enough ship troops for many missions (under full planetary assaults, off course)

AP, APA, AKA, entire "L" series ect.


Abbreviations are from:

http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/abbreviations.htm

 

[mike wightman]

I'm beginning to picture an ever increasing size of dispersed structure jump frames that can be kitted out for mission specifics:

10kt - fighter/SDB
100kt - workhorse jump frame
1000kt - squadron support
10000kt - fleet support

The frames/tenders call them what you will can have sub craft added for mission specifics - sort of a LASH set up but with support vessels.

The really big frames are capable of moving a couple of Tigresses or the stuff needed to salvage them.

I

 

[GypsyComet]

bear in mind the nearest TL 15 planet may be months away...

This has been touched on for Hospital ships as well. Terry McInnes's Medical articles for DGP and the "Medical debt" bit of MGT seem to assume that field dress may resort to quick fixes like cybernetic limbs, but once the fighting is more distant you'll be put through lengthier processes like regen therapy. I can imagine that strapping some sort of limb to an amputee to keep those synapses occupied until regrowth can be done would shorten the physical therapy a bit. You still have to train and strengthen the new muscle tissue, but you would have less psychological adjustment since you didn't have to get used to *not* having a limb.

 

[McPerth]

While a BT will pick up it's own cripples I would think one or more in the squadron would be assigned to transport the more seriously damaged to rear areas for repair or replacement.

At least at high TLs, a Squadron uses to have a single BT, that's why I said a fleet should have some spare tenders just for recovery duties (see also second to last entry in this post).

It is a military axiom to effect repair in the unit if possible, otherwise going no further away than the next able echelon. THIS is where auxiliaries and support ships come into the picture.

And hence my assuming Tenders have nearly full repair capabilities (as long as they are supplied, off course.

Also, while a Battle Tender COULD carry out any of the functions McPerth has described it would be a waste of tonnage as the majority of those functions WOULD be handled by auxiliaries and support ships.

I'm not so sure it is a waste of tonnage, as the Tenders must accompany your main fleet (assuming BT/BR is the current doctrine, and so TL is high enough), while the auxiliaries cold be left behind to perform the second line and rearguard duties.

Fighters on their own carriers. Escorts, those jump capable, operating as such and not carried.

Tenders use to carry also a nice load of fighters, so carriers could be spared for the main battle fleet (IIRC a Lurenti carries 300 fighters, BRs aside).

Again; Recovery[ATA, ATF, ATS, ATR] Repair [AR, ARS, ARB, ARH, ARV(E), ARV(A)]

Here there's a major difference from wet Navy to Space one (at least in Traveller setting):

In wet navy, a tug (recovery ship) may well tow a supercarrier, albeit at low speeds, as it floats and will follow it (if that's not the case, we're talking about a more complex opperation). SO, recovery ships may be quite smaller than the recovered ships. And if a single tug is not able, you can have more than one towing it.

In Space Navy, to allow the ship to carry (not just tow) a large ship, you need a larger one, as you'd need JD and (more important from size POV) fuel enough for the jump. That means recovery ships must be able to carry the recovered ship as payload, and several ships may not join efforts for it.

A tender must have already this payload, and, (assuming most, if not all, are irregular config) if large enough, it can carry even cruisers of BBs by leaving their BRs, if some form of link may be arranged. (e.g. a tender designed to carry 7 30 Kdton BRs would have the JD and fuel to als ocarry a 200 kdton BB, if it could be linked to it.

A recovery ship designed to carry a 30 kdton BR back to repair if too damaged, OTOH, would be useless if the ship to be recovered is too large.

And in any case, if the ship to be recovered is a Tender, I guess only field repairs (either, by its own crew, by specilalized ships or by another Tender) will aloow it to retreat to a base for further repairs, as I don't envision ships capable to carry them.

[*]I expect them to carry also courriers, either carried into the BT (after all they use to be fairly small) or accompaigning them

Accompanying them with possibly their own Tender.

As those courriers are jump capable, why do you need a tender for them?

I understand a Tender may carry some of them just to have them fueled when arriving to a new system to jump with urgent messages at short notice, but I envision most of them jumping by themselves and refueling with the main fleet.

 

[Vladika]

As those courriers are jump capable, why do you need a tender for them?

I understand a Tender may carry some of them just to have them fueled when arriving to a new system to jump with urgent messages at short notice, but I envision most of them jumping by themselves and refueling with the main fleet.

Poor communication on my part. I envisioned something on the order of a destroyer or seaplane tender. (AD or AV). These would supply fuel, provisions, spare parts, repairs, medical, replacement crews, recreation etc.

On the other hand, if J2 Scouts were used with a J2+ fleet, a tender/carrier would be nice to carry them.

 

[McPerth]

As I already told in another thread time ago, I've always envisioned the same courriers being used as scouts. If we asume a TL 13 fleet with J4 courriers, its mision (as scouts) would be to jump at J2 from the main fleet, appearing in the middle of nowere in the target system (in our own system a good place could be between Earth and Mars orbits, out from the current route among them, just to avoid random enounters), and scan for signals and intelligence.

As they will still have fuel for another J2 (I asume CT with jump governors), it could jump away for a randez-vous with the main fleet (with the intelligence collected) at short notice, should that be needed.

For a TL 15 fleet (with J6 courriers and J4 main fleet), it could jump 2 parsecs away from main fleet position (if the main fleet performs J2, it would perform J4 to achieve it) and still be fueled for return trip.

For longer scouting, drop tanks could be used from the main fleet (here your courrier tankers could help) to keep them fueled at the scouting target.

Using the same ship in two roles helps standarization, even if a little less specialized (in this case I guess this hindrance would be qminor, nearly negligible).

 

[sabredog]

Fleet oilers are used in the game Imperium to allow fleets to move through systems with no gas giants. I think that makes them canon, and the refueling and refinery rules in TCS make it simple to work one up based on the expected capacity of a given squadron. There is also good information that can be used to work up refueling times and schedules in AHL.

Since battleriders are a valid concept in Traveller in my own universe I have the battlerider tenders set up to support the four battleriders and a fifth non-jump ship that starts skimming for fuel when the squadrons jump in-system. The fuel is then transferred to the tender's tanks so it can jump out as soon as possible if needed. Likewise, the fleet oilers should carry lighters capable of skimming if the oiler itself cannot.

In fact, a good practice (as shown in AHL as well) is for large warships (which generally have plenty of room for it) to have lighters on board for skimming and refueling the ship if the ship cannot skim on its own. Oilers may accompany squadrons, but some classes of ship in particular should be designed so as not to have to over rely on them. Cruisers and destroyers are an obvious example of ships that should be capable of extended operations without having to rely on fleet refueling support. Obviously, if the support is there for use it should always be used for safety and maintenance reasons, but by definition long-range patrol craft of any size should be designed for optimum endurance and keeping the supply line to a minimum.

The AHL fuel shuttles are a good example of lighter designs that large warcraft could use. Modular lighters could be designed like large cutters and have modular components for fueling and fuel storage, as well as for cargo, troop transport, and the like.

And speaking of fuel support....what about drop tanks? If they are used are they recovered and by what? Are extra tanks carried by some kind of support ship?

And what about a dedicated fueling (oiler) squadron with its own attendant repair and maintenance ships? Like some floating dockyard?

 

[sabredog]

Poor communication on my part. I envisioned something on the order of a destroyer or seaplane tender. (AD or AV). These would supply fuel, provisions, spare parts, repairs, medical, replacement crews, recreation etc.

On the other hand, if J2 Scouts were used with a J2+ fleet, a tender/carrier would be nice to carry them.

I have a scout tender IMTU that is used for scout transport, maintenance, and as a sort of scout base for extended frontier operations.

http://freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/mongoose/murmansk.html

IMTU the jump-5 requirement is so the scouts can get around along the farther rift subsectors of my campaign with wide gaps in a lot of places. Your mileage in the house universe with the closer systems will vary and so a tender with only jump-3 or 4 might do.