Auxiliaries and Support Ships

[McPerth]

Logistics are a bit easier in a small ship universe than a large ship one, primarily because of the enormous quantities of fuel needed in a large ship universe.

My personal preference is for a small ship universe, one of the reasons being the logistics issue.

While you're surely right in the logistics part of the auxiliaries, I'm not so sure about other aspects, as small ship universe also limits the facilities you can have aboard one ship.

While in a big ship universe you can rely on your capital ships (mostly BBs and BTs for such things as medical support, courriers (as told in earlier posts), repair (algeit limited), command and coordination, etc..., In a small ship universe you're likely to need specialized ships for most those roles, so, while in one side (mostly logistics) you're right, you may need more kinds of support ships on it.

And even the logisitics might not be so much eased, as the supply ships will also be smaller (e.g. a tanker should be built taking into account the percentage of a ship's volumen it can carry in fuel, not in absolute numbers).

I am pretty much out of the discussion, having been warned about the use of real world expertise.

I don't think you're out of the discussion, and I agree with Vladika your knowledge may be quite wellcome here.

You were not formally warned, but informed of a rules change that took place when you have left the board and that you (I guess not knowing it) broke.

Let your knowledge show up and you would not need to cite real world experience.

 

[rancke]

While you're surely right in the logistics part of the auxiliaries, I'm not so sure about other aspects, as small ship universe also limits the facilities you can have aboard one ship.

A small ship universe would just have that many more ships for the same budget. The logistics would be of comparable magnitude. I have no idea whether that would make them simpler of more complex or pretty much the same. It would be one or the other or the third for certain sure.


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

It's probably a mixture, not just as a sop to the RPG aspect of the game, but a Fleet Admiral is taking a risk in committing his primary task force to battle in a heavily defended strategic system, or one that the opposing forces predicted would be visited and prepared an elaborate ambush.

If you view it as the North Africa campaign, there's certainly scope for a Rommel to chase around a less prepared enemy, and for some commando action to annoy him in his rear areas, while everyone is desperately trying to get resupplied.

 

[McPerth]

A small ship universe would just have that many more ships for the same budget. The logistics would be of comparable magnitude. I have no idea whether that would make them simpler of more complex or pretty much the same. It would be one or the other or the third for certain sure.

You're right. If Budget is kept equal and ships are smaller, there will be more ships by the same magnitude they price is lowered.

But I guess auxiliary roles will change:

• supply ships will pose similar problems in both cases
• repair, hospital, etc... ships will have to be specialized, as no ships large enough to have them (BBs and BT) exist, at least at the similar size.
• Recovery ships pose a special problem, as when your main combat ships near the maximum size allowed, larger recovery ships are not possible. This aside, if the maximum ship size is because no larger ones can jump, the possibility to somewhat mate a ship to another to make a combo able to jump is forfeited.
• Troop transports are smaller, so smaller land units are carried by ship. While this means each such ship lost means less ground losses, it also means more complexity for planetary invasions. Sam for ground ressuply ships.

Sure I forget some other changes...

And this is only if you use a HG small ship universe, if your universo is a Bk2 ships one, ship combat changes radically, and (I guess) so do auxiliary needs...

It's probably a mixture, not just as a sop to the RPG aspect of the game, but a Fleet Admiral is taking a risk in committing his primary task force to battle in a heavily defended strategic system, or one that the opposing forces predicted would be visited and prepared an elaborate ambush.

If you view it as the North Africa campaign, there's certainly scope for a Rommel to chase around a less prepared enemy, and for some commando action to annoy him in his rear areas, while everyone is desperately trying to get resupplied.

A major difference from desert war, as it was about the Pacific War, is that in Traveller space war there is no interception before you reach the target, if you asume the target to be a full system, and lack of instant communications (see my own post #32, in this same thread.

Also, in the desert war, you could mount a ressupli point anyway you wanted, something quite more complex when this point is in the middle of space (traveller space war) or the sea (Pacific War).

 

[aramis]

One other thing about Traveller's commo affects strategic ops (and aux needs): The advanced notice of an incoming fleet is either under a half a day, about a week with serious uncertainty, or none-at-all, depending upon incoming mode.

≤6 hours notice: Ships jumped in and battle will be in orbit
~ week notice: ships jumped in to a remote GG, and jumped again after refuel. May or may not be jumping into the defenders.
No notice: They jumped in and met your fleet at the jump point.

Logistically, keeping units at combat ready is nigh impossible. So rec ships are likely to also be part of the needed deployment. Rather than pulling from station the ships, a recreation auxiliary takes off shift personnel in smaller numbers to allow for longer ship-on-station times. Some will be bordellos, some casinos, some theaters, most some combination. Most bordellos are likely to use pseudobiological bots for a combination of hygenic and employment reasons if in the imperium or an equivalent sophonts-have-rights-inherently government; in less "enlightened" ones, bordellos are likely to be indentured or enslaved sophonts

 

[McPerth]

One other thing about Traveller's commo affects strategic ops (and aux needs): The advanced notice of an incoming fleet is either under a half a day, about a week with serious uncertainty, or none-at-all, depending upon incoming mode.

≤6 hours notice: Ships jumped in and battle will be in orbit
~ week notice: ships jumped in to a remote GG, and jumped again after refuel. May or may not be jumping into the defenders.
No notice: They jumped in and met your fleet at the jump point.

I guess most of those picket duties could be trusted to drones or fighters (drones for far picket duty, fighters for close one). This will not reduce your warning time by much (if at all), but, having probably sensors nearer to the enemy fleet, could make it more accurate.

Logistically, keeping units at combat ready is nigh impossible. So rec ships are likely to also be part of the needed deployment. Rather than pulling from station the ships, a recreation auxiliary takes off shift personnel in smaller numbers to allow for longer ship-on-station times. Some will be bordellos, some casinos, some theaters, most some combination. Most bordellos are likely to use pseudobiological bots for a combination of hygenic and employment reasons if in the imperium or an equivalent sophonts-have-rights-inherently government; in less "enlightened" ones, bordellos are likely to be indentured or enslaved sophonts

I'd add sports fields. Sports use to be quite popular (and usually encouraged) among the military..

I guess most of those facilities could be aboard in a BT, if you're using BT/BR combo on a large fleet universe. If I am well informed, there are at least some of them in Carriers today...

For a small ship universe, I agree with you, as no ship could have all of them and yet have space for many more things.

Just one word ot two about bordellos (and no more, as we're steppeng dangerous ground in this):

IMHO its existence and need in the fleet will depend much on the views about sex that Imperium holds (something not stated in OTU AFAIK). If they are mostly liberal in this field (think on a view as in Houxley's Brave New World^{see note}), they will probably not be needed, nor even understood, while in a more Victorian view they will.

I don't think pseudo-bilogical robots could be so used, at least if we take AB-101 as an example. It weights over 300 kg, and I guess most of us would have serious problems even at half of this (I surely will). It could lead to some comic relief in a play, though...

NOTE: in fact I was thinking on a society like the one depicted in Rafael Marín Trechera's Lágrimas de Luz, but AFAIK it has not been translated from Spanish. I just give you this reference in case anyone has read it.​

 

[Condottiere]

I don't think modern militaries encourage camp followers.

Besides the obvious health and security risks. Returning from liberty must involve something similar to entering Guantanamo, with a full scan and scrub to see if you picked up any organic or electronic bugs.

 

[flykiller]

alice-class 4900dton general transport module - maintenance/repair

this is a mini mobile repair "shipyard". the majority of the facility is devoted to knowledgeable personnel but it also includes fabrication shops, boat transportation, robot assistant support, and parts stores. the intent is 1) to supervise shipboard personnel in performing regularly-scheduled annual maintenance of shiboard systems and 2) to provide knowledge and expertise to assist shipboard personnel in field repair or jury-rigging ship systems in place to enable minimal functioning of necessary systems.

repair ship duty is presigious and highly-paid. the imperium spares no expense in training and retention. peacetime deployment rates are not high but when deployed the duty is arduous and sometimes hazardous. combat deployments are very hazardous and high-stress.

berthing is identical to that of combat troops. each individual has two dtons of berthing space, one-half dton of gear locker (including a hazard vacc suit), and one-half dton of lowberth available. further facilities include recreation, medical, and assembly areas, and lifeboats sufficient for all personnel.

a basic repair team consists of four individuals. the first is a second-tour "trainee" who already has four years experience in a ground-side shipyard and minimally has acquired vacc suit 1, 0g 1, school/experience for either mechanic or electronics 1, and lead school for his chosen field of technical expertise (e.g. gravitics 1, communications 1, etc). the remaining individuals are second, third, and fourth-tour techs with progressing levels of expertise in their systems, the most senior tech being the team lead. each team will have attached to it one general purpose tech15 robot having inherent basic-interaction skills and being programmable for the skills relevant to the team's present efforts.

the repair shop is organized into general departments over various work centers. the head office is staffed by the repair master and four naval architects who are in overall charge of all shop efforts. the departments and their work centers are: hull (general mechanics, general electronics, life support systems, damage control, hull armor, and gravitics); bridge (computer, sensors, communications); engineering (power plant, maneuver drive, jump drive, fuel purifier); primary weapons (meson gun, paws); secondary weapons (lasers, missiles, sand casters); screens (meson screen, nuclear damper field generator); and support (boat pilots, robot services, general service personnel, and the fabrication shops).

in general each work center will have two teams associated with it, with one work center supervisor. thus for example the gravitics work center will have nine personnel - two teams of four members each and one supervisor - and two robots. exceptions are the general mechanics, general electricians, life support, damage control work centers, and fabrication shops, which will have six teams, three supervisors, a senior supervisor, and six robots.

the whole is supervised by the repair master and four naval architects in the head office who coordinate all repair efforts. the repair master reports directly to the battlegroup rear admiral. each department and each work center will have its own office.

there are three fabrication shops, each of 200dtons. the first specializes in metal components, the second in electronics, and the third in exotics such as glass, plastics, rubbers, and any other materials as neeeded. there are 1600dtons of cargo space available for ready-made parts, spares, and general stock.

there are twenty 20dton ship's gigs, each with two pilots, available for transport to and from work sites. there are twelve 20dton semi-automated lifeboats available sufficient for every person in the repair shop. the module is otherwise outfitted to shipboard standards such as life support, damage control centers, and endurance cargo.

during or after combat operations when addressing a damaged ship damage control techs are always first to secure and safe the environment for the following teams. they and the life support techs work closely with the medical rescue teams to safe and secure surviving personnel and transport casualties to the hospital ship.

51 supervisors
312 techs
66 mobile robots
20 20dton boats
40 pilots
12 general service
12 lifeboats
1600dtons cargo, 600dtons fabrication shop, 10dtons flight control

 

[Timerover51]

I don't think you're out of the discussion, and I agree with Vladika your knowledge may be quite wellcome here.

You were not formally warned, but informed of a rules change that took place when you have left the board and that you (I guess not knowing it) broke.

Let your knowledge show up and you would not need to cite real world experience.

I was not unaware of the restriction on the use or citing of personal expertise. I just regard it as absurd. Does it extend to my citing of military manuals and handbooks on say, explosives and demolitions, armor penetration, effective burst radius of artillery ammunition and bombs, amount of supplies for a given size of force assuming a specific level of combat, standard ammunition loads for units, Tables of Organization and Equipment, and space required for the carrying of various types of cargo? All of that is based on real world knowledge that I have.

Also, does said restriction extend to moderators?

 

[Vladika]

Also, does said restriction extend to moderators?

The answer to that question, based on my personal experience (not professional heaven forbid!), is no.

 

[GrayPennell]

I was not unaware of the restriction on the use or citing of personal expertise. I just regard it as absurd. Does it extend to my citing of military manuals and handbooks on say, explosives and demolitions, armor penetration, effective burst radius of artillery ammunition and bombs, amount of supplies for a given size of force assuming a specific level of combat, standard ammunition loads for units, Tables of Organization and Equipment, and space required for the carrying of various types of cargo? All of that is based on real world knowledge that I have.

Also, does said restriction extend to moderators?

This is interesting because I have seen moderators uses there own expertise about things. I don't quote mine because I was taught by a wise person to never bring my resume to the table bring a solution. Seriously maybe a moderator might explain this in another thread.

 

[GrayPennell]

You're right. If Budget is kept equal and ships are smaller, there will be more ships by the same magnitude they price is lowered.

But I guess auxiliary roles will change:

• supply ships will pose similar problems in both cases
• repair, hospital, etc... ships will have to be specialized, as no ships large enough to have them (BBs and BT) exist, at least at the similar size.
• Recovery ships pose a special problem, as when your main combat ships near the maximum size allowed, larger recovery ships are not possible. This aside, if the maximum ship size is because no larger ones can jump, the possibility to somewhat mate a ship to another to make a combo able to jump is forfeited.
• Troop transports are smaller, so smaller land units are carried by ship. While this means each such ship lost means less ground losses, it also means more complexity for planetary invasions. Sam for ground ressuply ships.

Sure I forget some other changes...

And this is only if you use a HG small ship universe, if your universo is a Bk2 ships one, ship combat changes radically, and (I guess) so do auxiliary needs...



A major difference from desert war, as it was about the Pacific War, is that in Traveller space war there is no interception before you reach the target, if you asume the target to be a full system, and lack of instant communications (see my own post #32, in this same thread.

Also, in the desert war, you could mount a ressupli point anyway you wanted, something quite more complex when this point is in the middle of space (traveller space war) or the sea (Pacific War).

Being a well known advocate of a small ship universe I would change the budget, and increase the cost of war materials. I do disagree with this change in size causing the problems you state though. Supply ships can be very large in relationship to auxiliary ships. Looking at WWII the Queen Mary was much large than all but the largest battleships. Often auxiliary ships are specialized to ensure they are equipped and capable of carrying out their duties.

In times of peace these ships would travel about with a light escort in war time if they are near an engagement they would be heavily guarded. More often than not they will stay one jump away from a target. It is the location and strength of the auxiliary fleet that the enemies spies will be looking for as its position would give away the likely point of attack adding some warning. Also if the position is identify and a strike force can hit than you set back attack plans.

This is what puts spy vs picket ships in play and a great game for the PCs to be in. I had plans to have a game where the players were to spy on the SW/Darian ship dispositions
during the 5th FW

 

[aramis]

This is interesting because I have seen moderators uses there own expertise about things. I don't quote mine because I was taught by a wise person to never bring my resume to the table bring a solution. Seriously maybe a moderator might explain this in another thread.

That's the basic gist of the rule. It was implmented after complaints about certain posters using the "I was a ___" as a way of saying "STFU".

Basically, if you have to go to authority in arguments, you may not cite yourself nor your credentials - tho' you certainly may cite your own published papers.

 

[Vladika]

...Rather than pulling from station the ships, a recreation auxiliary takes off shift personnel in smaller numbers to allow for longer ship-on-station times. Some will be bordellos

Could we see even a single example of some Navy's ship commissioned as a bordello?:rofl:

Please skip past the "Well, in the days of sail, it was common practice to turn a blind eye...".

Come on, just a single, real world example, of any Navy, on the entire plant, that has, or had, a commissioned bordello, crewed and commanded by Naval personnel. (Not staffed of course; that would be conduct unbecoming.)

I guess if the Original Startrek had a holo deck, captain Kirk wouldn't have had to stop off on so many alien planets? (And a whole lot of "Red Shirts" wouldn't have been sacrificed for the greater good.)

Anyway, back to the (insert designating naval acronym here) Caligula.

Where? When?

, some casinos, some theaters, most some combination.

Most bordellos are likely to use pseudobiological bots for a combination of hygenic and employment reasons if in the imperium or an equivalent sophonts-have-rights-inherently government; in less "enlightened" ones, bordellos are likely to be indentured or enslaved sophonts

Love to get into the rest of this but I fear it would tend to obfuscate the answer to my original question.

 

[pendragonman]

Vladika, as you well know, modern navies have the speed and range to accomplish this "bordello need" by regular ports of call or by being able to return to base.

Further, in peace time I doubt the "bordello ships" are actually in use or even requisitioned, since regular port calls cover this issue.


Now, to turn around this same question, please show me a modern navy which is on a war footing that has needed to be out of contact with a port of call for long enough for this to become an issue? Seriously, how long does it take a CVBG to travel from the US coast to the Middle East? About the length of time for a jump? Certainly not much more.

Now let's look at a Traveller Battle Group. How long does it take for them to reach a war zone? Will they be able to make calls at a friendly port anywhere close, or is it operationally more important to be out of communication with any planets? Since the speed of communication and speed of supply and speed of travel for the fleet is more directly linked with the age of sail, this is why the comparison to age of sail makes more sense.

 

[Vladika]

Vladika, as you well know, modern navies have the speed and range to accomplish this "bordello need" by regular ports of call or by being able to return to base.

Further, in peace time I doubt the "bordello ships" are actually in use or even requisitioned, since regular port calls cover this issue.


Now, to turn around this same question, please show me a modern navy which is on a war footing that has needed to be out of contact with a port of call for long enough for this to become an issue? Seriously, how long does it take a CVBG to travel from the US coast to the Middle East? About the length of time for a jump? Certainly not much more.

Now let's look at a Traveller Battle Group. How long does it take for them to reach a war zone? Will they be able to make calls at a friendly port anywhere close, or is it operationally more important to be out of communication with any planets? Since the speed of communication and speed of supply and speed of travel for the fleet is more directly linked with the age of sail, this is why the comparison to age of sail makes more sense.

Again, which navy? The British navy did allow "wives" aboard while sailors were confined to ships even in port. They weren't checking marriage licenses to close either. Even so, there were no "brothel" ships, then, now, or ever.

US Navy ships deploy for 6 to 8 months on a regular basis and don't bebop back to port for a booty call. The IN sailor can manage during annual maintenance or R&R port calls. Same thing PROFESSIONAL military personnel have been making do with.

While you MIGHT find a professional officer who thinks a brothel ship would be a good idea, I seriously don't think that same officer would want to command such a ship. Not exactly a career step. "We're assigning you to 'Pimp' patrol cruiser duty." Pimps, Prostitutes, Penicillin & Prophylactics... Gotta be a supply code somewhere.

"Daddy, what did you do during the war?"

"Well son, that's where I met your mother..."

Brothel ships sound, to me, like nothing more than a barely pubescent adolescent fantasy.

And, based on aramis "hygiene" claim, what is so hygienic about several hundred crewmen using a machine? Then there are the women crew members. While we're all pretending to be adults here why not "marital aides"? They're made for both sexes and the androgynous these days. Bring your own an use your own; quite a bit more hygienic.

For any moderator who thinks this has gone to far, may I point out aramis opened the door?

Shall we end this and get back to "real" logistic needs? If not let's decide how much life support these "pseudo biological units" take? Do they need Stateroom space? Can they double bunk?

McPerth was right about his issue with 300kg surrogates, though, if I remember correctly, CT, Book 8, Robots would make the size a bit more acceptable?

He was right about something else too; this whole topic skirts the edge.

 

[Condottiere]

... sophonts.

 

[McPerth]

Also, does said restriction extend to moderators?

The answer to that question, based on my personal experience (not professional heaven forbid!), is no.

Do the exemptions incude moderators as such?

I didn't read that, so YES, moderators are included in those rules AFAIK, and are not above rules nor reporting, if you feel it appropiate.

[m;]Now please, could we end those rounds of firukhte and return to Traveller discusions?[/m;]

 

[Timerover51]

While the Japanese Army did have the Japanese Army Comfort Girls, mainly from Korean, to attend to the troops needs, no comparable organization existed for the Japanese Navy. The women for the Army were located mainly at rear bases. As to how the Japanese Army combat units at the front took care of those needs, I would recommend perusing information regarding the Rape of Nanking. There is also some interesting information in John Keats (not the English Poet) book, They Fought Alone, which covers the American-Filipino guerilla effort on the island of Mindanao during World War 2.

Returning more to the original reason for the thread, one other ship type needed would the a high-jump capable dispatch vessel, similar to the ones used by navies during the Victorian period prior to the development of radio. While using an X-boat would be an option, there would be times when a commander would need to send a small number of personnel back to either fill in, to a greater degree, the rear commander as to what is going on, or to lobby for a specific course of action.

 

[McPerth]

Returning more to the original reason for the thread, one other ship type needed would the a high-jump capable dispatch vessel, similar to the ones used by navies during the Victorian period prior to the development of radio. While using an X-boat would be an option, there would be times when a commander would need to send a small number of personnel back to either fill in, to a greater degree, the rear commander as to what is going on, or to lobby for a specific course of action.

Sure that would be one of the most critical auxiliary ships.

In fact, courriers (I guess they would fill that role) and Tankers are (AFAIK) the only auxiliary ships shown in Traveller canon.