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Barely There: Ursa Worlds of the Imperium

The truth can be told regarding my interest in Ursa. Someone High Up in the Traveller Universe kept asking if my interstellar circus would have bears.


You not only want to restore the Ursa to their previous numbers but also spread them further afield to help a novel?

The Ursa and Sydites are little more than the some of the stains T20 left behind because that ill-considered Traveller/D&D mash-up gave canon furries and four-armed orcs(1).

The Ursa could have been something, could have been unique. Even with the need for them to be PC-ready, uplifted or chimera bears could have been far more interesting than the Albedo ripoff that was presented. Given their ur-species, the Ursa could have and should have formed societies uniquely different from that of humanity, yet they're nothing but Bob the Brave Honorable Bear from Accounting making the Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce speeches you posted.

The Ursa are boring, formulaic, lazy, stereotypes but you want to spread them about to save two minor characters in the piece of fan-fic? Niven and Pournelle changed the orbit of New Chicago to keep one sentence in their draft of The Mote in God's Eye. Is your novel worth further inflicting the Ursa on Traveller?

By all means, restore the Ursa to their former range - but just their former range. There's no need to increase the scope of T20's mistake.

1 - The Sydites could have and should have been something unique too while still remaining PC-ready.

Given the need to control four arms means their very brains should have been different from other Minor Human races. As Wil correctly points out, having extra hands means you can more often hold your tool and your work at the same time. The Sydites could have been craftsmen and tool makers capable of exquisite beauty and precision, inveterate arboreal tinkers with better overall spacial reasoning than most humans, or innate engineers approaching the savant levels of Motie Browns.

What did T20 give us instead? Brutal, ugly, violent, stupid, four armed orcs.

Should we spread them further about too? Your circus must need roustabouts to raise the big top, shovel manure, and beat up rubes. :rolleyes:
 
You not only want to restore the Ursa to their previous numbers but also spread them further afield to help a novel?

The Ursa and Sydites are little more than the some of the stains T20 left behind because that ill-considered Traveller/D&D mash-up gave canon furries and four-armed orcs(1).

The Ursa could have been something, could have been unique. Even with the need for them to be PC-ready, uplifted or chimera bears could have been far more interesting than the Albedo ripoff that was presented. Given their ur-species, the Ursa could have and should have formed societies uniquely different from that of humanity, yet they're nothing but Bob the Brave Honorable Bear from Accounting making the Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce speeches you posted.

The Ursa are boring, formulaic, lazy, stereotypes but you want to spread them about to save two minor characters in the piece of fan-fic? Niven and Pournelle changed the orbit of New Chicago to keep one sentence in their draft of The Mote in God's Eye. Is your novel worth further inflicting the Ursa on Traveller?

By all means, restore the Ursa to their former range - but just their former range. There's no need to increase the scope of T20's mistake.

1 - The Sydites could have and should have been something unique too while still remaining PC-ready.

Given the need to control four arms means their very brains should have been different from other Minor Human races. As Wil correctly points out, having extra hands means you can more often hold your tool and your work at the same time. The Sydites could have been craftsmen and tool makers capable of exquisite beauty and precision, inveterate arboreal tinkers with better overall spacial reasoning than most humans, or innate engineers approaching the savant levels of Motie Browns.

What did T20 give us instead? Brutal, ugly, violent, stupid, four armed orcs.

Should we spread them further about too? Your circus must need roustabouts to raise the big top, shovel manure, and beat up rubes. :rolleyes:

Thank you for your rant. Glad to know that I have fans.

OK, my serious remark: I am not in favor of putting them out more WIDELY than T20, in general. The addition to Corridor, however, WAS already done, before the novel -- and yes, as part of a discussion of where Ursa might have gotten to. Yes, in support of the Sourcebook "Cirque," which spawned the novel.

And that's that. All of this has been discussed with that Miller fellow, who has approved. Run your TU any way YOU want. Nothing further to say, IMHO.
 
Marc and Greg (and me, just for the record) all agree it's a good idea to restore some or all of the worlds.

I've not got a good read on Robject in the matter... :confused:

And I may not have made my support clear via email.
 
Thank you for your rant.


You're welcome.

Glad to know that I have fans.

Actually, I am a fan. You wrote Lee's Guide to Interstellar Adventure, one of the best supplements for CT and one whose format I wished had been widely copied. You also wrote Cirque, which I've bought and believe to be one of the better examples of a "non-militarized" campaign.

OK, my serious remark: I am not in favor of putting them out more WIDELY than T20, in general.

The operative phrase being "in general".

The addition to Corridor, however, WAS already done, before the novel -- and yes, as part of a discussion of where Ursa might have gotten to. Yes, in support of the Sourcebook "Cirque," which spawned the novel.

You put furries on Corridor because you needed them for your sourcebook and now that there are furries in Corridor you can use them in your novel. Nice circular reasoning.

I'll ask this again: Is further inflicting T20's mistake on canon worth whatever the furries add to your sourcebook and novel?

All of this has been discussed with that Miller fellow, who has approved.

The same fellow approved the T5SS data too.

If you need furries IYTU put furries IYTU. There's no need to create another IRIS some future product will need to explain away.
 
The two colonies were added to Fornast adjacent to their range in Ley on the observation that sectors are not walled gardens, also well before Greg's novel.

This is probably not an opportune moment to mention that several of the T4 races have resurfaced as well, but I will anyway.

If you need furries IYTU put furries IYTU. There's no need to create another IRIS some future product will need to explain away.

There are a gazillion Vargr running around loose and you are worried about a tiny population of uplifted bears?

A few talking bears in odd corners do not rise to the level of Canon crisis caused by IRIS, which represented a structural change to much of the setting. By comparison, uplifts have been part of the setting from very early.
 
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The two colonies were added to Fornast adjacent to their range in Ley on the observation that sectors are not walled gardens, also well before Greg's novel.

This is probably not an opportune moment to mention that several of the T4 races have resurfaced as well, but I will anyway.



There are a gazillion Vargr running around loose and you are worried about a tiny population of uplifted bears?

A few talking bears in odd corners do not rise to the level of Canon crisis caused by IRIS, which represented a structural change to much of the setting. By comparison, uplifts have been part of the setting from very early.

Dolphins since 1980... (JTAS Nr 6)
 
I actually think the Ursa fit well enough into the pantheon of alien races, largely because in general Traveller's aliens aren't physically very interesting. Space dogs, space cats, space elves, space etc...

The various human races feel much more distinct and developed. In a setting where there are already Vargr, I don't really care if there are Ursa.
 
You're welcome.



Actually, I am a fan. You wrote Lee's Guide to Interstellar Adventure, one of the best supplements for CT and one whose format I wished had been widely copied. You also wrote Cirque, which I've bought and believe to be one of the better examples of a "non-militarized" campaign.



The operative phrase being "in general".



You put furries on Corridor because you needed them for your sourcebook and now that there are furries in Corridor you can use them in your novel. Nice circular reasoning.

I'll ask this again: Is further inflicting T20's mistake on canon worth whatever the furries add to your sourcebook and novel?



The same fellow approved the T5SS data too.

If you need furries IYTU put furries IYTU. There's no need to create another IRIS some future product will need to explain away.

Well, thanks for the kind words about the work I've done previously.

Look, I understand that you think that the Ursa are unnecessary, and that you disagree with decisions that were made during the writing of a campaign sourcebook. I even understand that we could have done it without putting two colonies closer to the Marches. I also understand that you might not get what in the novel-writing process brought the Ursa to my attention as characters that sort of insisted on development (with so many vagabonds to choose from, why THEM, you could well ask -- and the simplest answer is "read it when we get it out").

I didn't go into either the sourcebook or the novel with a bear agenda. In the earlier case, as I have always lightly pointed out, discussions with credited collaborators led me to a bit of lightness. Now, I could throw Craig under the bus because HE actually created those characters, dice-and-pencil, with no more direction than, "One can be a craftsman and the other a scholar, but stereotypical unicycles MUST be involved." But that would be unfair -- because he added touches that made them interesting.

As for the novel -- well, it's mostly a prequel, and I looked at where the chess pieces were on the board as I wrote snippets of the invasion and war. And the Ursa were positioned to represent something we rarely see in space opera OR Traveller -- the war refugee. Now, I don't OWE you that explanation, but you want to be critical, and I think you should be critical AFTER you have some idea of what is there. Otherwise, you're just filtering this through your dislike of bears in space.

I could go through a very long list of why certain characters are who they are in Cirque. The Vargr is the Ringmaster because I fought the temptation to make a Vargr an animal trainer, but I wanted a Vargr. The Aslan female is a lawyer -- and hails from an Aslan enclave within the Marches -- because there was LOTS of precedent. The tumblers are Aslan because Marc suggested it. ANdii is a double amputee for the reason I gave in the sourcebook -- I don't like war being sanitized and consequence-free in fiction, because it isn't in daily life.

OK, so you don't agree with every decision that was made, none of which contradicted canon, all of which was passed in front of Don, Marc, Craig, Rob, Jim, Andrea, etc. The bears apparently are a big old sore spot, as is my sometimes humorous touch on the issue.

Bottom line: I don't see how a couple of bears on fewer than 20 of 10,000 worlds, a few dogs, a few cats, the odd gill-man, the occasional lizard-man, all those nine-armed nasties and other such critters, scaly, slimy, furry, or bark-encrusted somehow DAMAGE the setting.

Really, just chill. There are two worlds in Corridor with Ursa mixed in -- and they aren't taking over the sector. As far as I can tell, they never travel to SPinward. Gabby and Roland are the only two who ever made it there, at least until someone ELSE decides they want a bear in a CT-Era campaign. For now, there are only TWO BEARS of in all of the Spinward Marches during the war period. The rest, as it turns out (because I say it here, and it is thus automatically accurate) are "conscies," conscientious objectors, and ALSO terrified of spacing. And you have every right to take those weak, simpering conscies out if you run Cirque.

Heck, you can nuke Shishkala from orbit just to get rid of the infestation if it bothers you such much.

But otherwise...more fuss than I think is needed.
 
There are a gazillion Vargr running around loose and you are worried about a tiny population of uplifted bears?


The Vargr as presented have a hook, something that makes them unique, something that makes them memorable. The Ursa have nothing.

Yes, you can play the Vargr as "dog men". We all know they're more than that and have been portrayed as such since CT. Keith, Miller, and Harshman took aspects of Canid instinct and behavior and then extrapolated that into sentient beliefs and actions.

Contrast that to the Ursa. What makes them memorable other than the fact their ur-species were bears? Anything? Is there anything of Ursus in them? Or are they just a pelt?

The Vargr are an attempt to depict sentient Canids. The Ursa are humans in bear suits.

The Ursa are furries in every derogatory meaning of the term.

This isn't about a tiny number of uplifted bears. This about expanding a lazy mistake in the name of expediency.
 
The Vargr as presented have a hook, something that makes them unique, something that makes them memorable. The Ursa have nothing.

Yes, you can play the Vargr as "dog men". We all know they're more than that and have been portrayed as such since CT. Keith, Miller, and Harshman took aspects of Canid instinct and behavior and then extrapolated that into sentient beliefs and actions.

Contrast that to the Ursa. What makes them memorable other than the fact their ur-species were bears? Anything? Is there anything of Ursus in them? Or are they just a pelt?

The Vargr are an attempt to depict sentient Canids. The Ursa are humans in bear suits.

The Ursa are furries in every derogatory meaning of the term.

This isn't about a tiny number of uplifted bears. This about expanding a lazy mistake in the name of expediency.

There is validity to this argument, but identifying the problem is only the first step to solving it.

What would you like to see in an Ursa society?
 
What would you like to see in an Ursa society?

If rebooting the Ursa, I'd have no predetermined goal for their society. That is, I wouldn't decide they behave a certain way, live a certain way, and think a certain way so I could hammer the Ursa peg into my previously selected hole.

Instead, I'd take the known behaviors of Ursidae like diet, gregariousness, reproduction, and others along with known physical characteristics like senses, size, metabolism, body plan, and others. Then - to a certain extent - I'd carry all of that forward to the uplifted species. That's what Keith, Miller, and Harshman did with Canidae and the Vargr.

Yes, the Ursa uplift process will tweak and/or diminish certain aspects of Ursidae. However, if Yasskodray & Co. didn't get all the Canidae out of the Vargr, I seriously doubt that GenAssist is going to get all the Ursidae out of the Ursa.

Here's a behavioral attribute of bears:

Bears are overwhelmingly solitary and are considered to be the most asocial of all the Carnivora. Liaisons between breeding bears are brief, and the only times bears are encountered in small groups are mothers with young or occasional seasonal bounties of rich food (such as salmon runs).

Ursidae are the most asocial of all Carnivora which, of course, is why T20 has the Ursa living in close knit extended families like medieval peasants. :rolleyes:

Given what we know about Ursidae gregariousness and reproductive habits, what sorts of "families" and "communities" would they develop or be able to maintain?

Assuming that some level of neoteny at some time(1) is needed for sentience - which is something I prefer assume - how would Ursidae "single mothers" raise children over the period of a decade or more? By forming pair bonded nuclear families like Ward and June Cleaver as T20 would has us believe? Or by raising children communally with their mothers, sisters, and daughters?

Beginning the see the possibilities? And there's lots more including what sort of hands the Ursa may have, something T5 specifically addresses in it's sophont creation systems.


1 - Even the Hivers have some form of neoteny. It occurs after juvenile survivors of the pre-sentient larval wilderness wandering period return by instinct to the nearest nest.
 
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If rebooting the Ursa, I'd have no predetermined goal for their society. That is, I wouldn't decide they behave a certain way, live a certain way, and think a certain way so I could hammer the Ursa peg into my previously selected hole.

Well, except the Ursa were created for a predetermined role, weren't they? When the GenAssist scientists started messing about with bears, they must have had specific purposes in mind.

If their goal was simply to make a bear that could play chess or read, then that is an argument in favor of a more "nature" based approach. However, if we theorize that the extensive modifications of the uplift process were directed for specific reasons and goals, that's more of a "nurture" concept.

As Hans used to say, "it has to make sense." Starting with what bears are actually like is a solid beginning. But the uplift wasn't accidental, so what the scientists were trying to do should also be fairly significant in the discussion.
 
Well, except the Ursa were created for a predetermined role, weren't they? When the GenAssist scientists started messing about with bears, they must have had specific purposes in mind.


GenAssist had a goal or, more likely, a series of goals. While we only guess at just what those goals were, that GenAssist failed to reach those goals is a fact.

However, if we theorize that the extensive modifications of the uplift process were directed for specific reasons and goals, that's more of a "nurture" concept.

You can only "nurture" away so much "nature". I'll remind everyone again that if Yasskodray & Co. didn't get all the Canidae out of the Vargr, we should seriously doubt that GenAssist got all the Ursidae out of the Ursa.

Looking at it from another angle, there must of been something about Ursidae's nature made GenAssist believe nurturing sentience in such a Family a worthy goal.

As Hans used to say, "it has to make sense."

Yes it does, and going through the centuries long process of uplifting bears simply to make another race of Cleavers - to make something you already had - makes no sense whatsoever.

Starting with what bears are actually like is a solid beginning.

Exactly. There has to be something about bears that made their uplift a worthy goal.

But the uplift wasn't accidental, so what the scientists were trying to do should also be fairly significant in the discussion.

Any hints in T20?
 
Obviously, Bill, you've not seen Grizzlies on the Kenai. They're almost shoulder to shoulder... (not quite but you can easily see 10 to 20 within a quarter mile.) And they can and do cooperate during fishing season... A particularly successful bear will eat just the skins and brains, and let less successful bears at the remnants, but other alphas get challenged. Not "social" per se, but there is clearly a hierachy, and threats don't get leftovers.
 
Ursa history

The T20 core book has limited information on the purpose for designing the Ursa:

Ursa are a genetically-uplifted Terran animal species, like Dolphins and Orca. The Solomani corporation GenAssist, established to adapt Terran native lifeforms to alien climates, saw a need for creatures that could assist in colonizing and developing various types of worlds for the Rule of Man. To that end, GenAssist began research on a number of species that might prove to be of use. The Ursa were developed fairly late in the project. It was anticipated that they would be used on higher than normal gravity planets or worlds with many hostile and dangerous lifeforms [emphasis added].
For whatever reason, that latter purpose seems to resonate more with me much more strongly than work on high gravity worlds. This uplift makes much more sense if initially designed for one specific world in mind, a world with one or more native lifeforms so dangerous that humans decided they wanted fricken bears with laser beams to help.

One world in the Solomani Rim that combines all of these features is Furioso (0717 A9C5761-D), with a suitably harsh environment and native horrors like the ice spider and ice crawler (JTAS 17). (If it had a breathable atmosphere it would be even better.) Colonists kept getting chomped, for whatever reason robotic guards didn't work (maybe the atmosphere?), so GenAssist needed to develop a badass companion species to help protect the settlements. But instead of getting a domesticated version of the bear from the Revenant, they instead ended up with something like Baloo.

The highest common Rule of Man TL is generally considered to be 12, though the Terrans probably had limited TL 13 in some discrete areas like genetics. Per T5, genetic manipulation is possible at TL 13 but geneering doesn't become practical until TL 14, so GenAssist's R&D group probably had far more misses than hits. Think Isle of Doctor Moreau.

You know, I'm starting to warm up to these guys.
 
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Obviously, Bill, you've not seen Grizzlies on the Kenai. They're almost shoulder to shoulder... (not quite but you can easily see 10 to 20 within a quarter mile.) And they can and do cooperate during fishing season... A particularly successful bear will eat just the skins and brains, and let less successful bears at the remnants, but other alphas get challenged. Not "social" per se, but there is clearly a hierachy, and threats don't get leftovers.


Miss this bit?

... the only times bears are encountered in small groups are mothers with young or occasional seasonal bounties of rich food (such as salmon runs).
(emphasis mine)
 
Bears can hibernate...
add to their natural solitary nature and I would have made them long range explorer types.
 
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bears are big, and they spend their entire non-hibernating time eating to restore themselves to normal weight after hibernation and then eating to pile on fat in preparation for the next hibernation. this puts a big stress on the local ecosystem, which simply cannot support all that many bears. it's not that bears are anti-social, it's that they're hungry. if they had a constant and reliable supply of food they probably would behave differently.

notice how primitive tribes will viciously fight over hunting lands, but will come together and form cities if food is more plentiful. same dynamic.
 
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