Big Naval Ships in the Traveller Universe

[mike wightman]

Looking at the damage potential based on black globe absorption rules
laser 1x# 1->9
plasma 1x# 1->7
fusion 2x# 8->18
PAW 5x# 5->45
meson 20x# 60->180
missile 2x# 2->18
nuke 100x# 100->900

a bay nuke is #7->#9
a single nuke is #1 or #2

So a bay nuke exploding within a ship should be the equivalent of a meson spinal of EP equivalence, while a single turret missile is around the equivalent of a bay meson gun.

 

[Carlobrand]

Looking at the damage potential based on black globe absorption rules
laser 1x# 1->9
plasma 1x# 1->7
fusion 2x# 8->18
PAW 5x# 5->45
meson 20x# 60->180
missile 2x# 2->18
nuke 100x# 100->900

a bay nuke is #7->#9
a single nuke is #1 or #2

So a bay nuke exploding within a ship should be the equivalent of a meson spinal of EP equivalence, while a single turret missile is around the equivalent of a bay meson gun.

Doesn't "a bay nuke" mean several nukes?

 

[kilemall]

Looking at the damage potential based on black globe absorption rules
laser 1x# 1->9
plasma 1x# 1->7
fusion 2x# 8->18
PAW 5x# 5->45
meson 20x# 60->180
missile 2x# 2->18
nuke 100x# 100->900

a bay nuke is #7->#9
a single nuke is #1 or #2

So a bay nuke exploding within a ship should be the equivalent of a meson spinal of EP equivalence, while a single turret missile is around the equivalent of a bay meson gun.

I translate that into 10 tons per EP. So a turret nuke is 1000 tons, bay nuke is 5000 tons. I correspond the warheads to the 15cm and 25cm nukes from Striker.

In demolition/self destruct charge mode I have them doing automatic hull damage equal to tonnage because there are predetermined scuttle locations optimized for destruction. In addition they do half damage more on the system they are located next to plus radiation hits on same, then the other half is random damage.

Plain old bay self destruct, they aren’t optimally placed so no scuttle bonus but definitely nuke hits rolling primary damage instead on the internal damage systems, automatic hits, one hit per salvo. I figure two bay missiles for 50 ton shots and four for 100 ton per salvo. Not individual because they are exploding at once and affecting optimal damage by fratricide.

So for HG tables, something of the same, resolved like meson spinal hits.

 

[McPerth]

It's logical to think ships can be scuttled, the question is if they will, and, IMHO, this is not a technical matter (how to do it), but a setting matter (war laws, uses and custoums).

 

[aramis]

It's pretty clear that the rules as written don't support the ships as written, at least not under CT or MT. I don't know for other versions. There'd need to be some fairly significant changes to make something like a Tigress worthwhile.

It's worse in TNE & T4, where they can barely mount the needed radiators...

 

[McPerth]

From a battle in Efate/Regina to the shipyard at Rhylanor is 16 Pc, 4 jumps at J-4, about a month if you have a tender handy.
Repair takes one or two months if the shipyard has free capacity right now (in a hot warzone?).
One month back to the front while working up.
Total three-four months at the very best? If you have to send the ship to Mora, it's nine jumps, over two months either way, so six months total

IMHO each and every IN base has the capacity to repair IN ships (and probably lots of spares to be able to), local TL notwhithstanding. Why else ar they if not?

See that even depots, where fleets are cared, built and tended, are in many instances not TL 15 (according MT:RS, page 34, Deposts list, out of 19 depots, one is TL 16, five are TL 15 and one of them is even TL7 and built on a Starport D system...)

If so, at least your own crippled ships will be repaired locally, so time for travel is negated.

Of course, if isolated (as Efate or Jewell in FFW), this capacity should be eroded with time (and they will probably ressort to canibalizing the worst damaged ones), but, again, this is not reflected in rules...

 

[TamsinP]

I agree that IN naval bases would be TL15. However, not all naval bases are IN, and even those that are will vary in the size and types of ships that they can repair. For example, a base which normally only has patrol corvettes, destroyer escorts and destroyers assigned would be able to repair/refit those but may not have the spares or berths needed for repair of larger vessels, although they would be able to repair/replace weapon systems of the types found on the ships normally based there.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

IMHO each and every IN base has the capacity to repair IN ships (and probably lots of spares to be able to), local TL notwhithstanding. Why else ar they if not?

They are bases, logistical hubs to support operations.

CT S9, p6:
NAVAL BASES
A naval base has several distinct parts to it; each helps achieve the general purpose of naval harbor.
...
The heavy maintenance section supervises almost all battle damage repair and the construction of any naval vessel being built at the starport it is attached to. Emergency facilities are generally on hand to accomodate several ships at once in general repair.

NAVAL DEPOTS
Distinct from the naval base system is the naval depot. Comparatively few in number, these depots serves as focusses for naval efforts, supplying entire fleets, providing construction and repairs, and producing prototypes of new ships.

Depots can build and repair ships, naval bases can't.

CT TCS, p35:
Starport Repairs: Full repair may be done at any A or B starport, but j-drive repairs require double cost and time at B starports, and no starport may repair a ship system of higher tech level than the starport's tech level. Repairs require shipyard capacity equal to the ship's tonnage.

Shipyards, i.e. starports, can repair battle damage.

 

[Spinward Flow]

one of them is even TL7 and built on a Starport D system...

That instance does require a somewhat nuanced interpretation (if you reject the notion that the depot was assigned there in error).

The easiest explanation is that "something happened" (probably disaster related) to the mainworld in the system. So previously it would have had a higher TL and starport code, but following the "disaster" the world TL and starport have degraded/gone downhill ... presumably due to an economic collapse of some variety. So the depot would have been built "in more prosperous times" earlier and simply hasn't been moved out of the system yet to another/better location.

Another explanation is that the the mainworld "wants to have little to nothing to do with" the naval depot. Stay away from us and we'll stay away from you (basic xenophobia). That way, the naval depot could be located in an otherwise "uninhabitable" outer solar orbit, well away from the inhabited mainworld. A wide separation (in effect) between the civilian population on the mainworld and the military billets at the naval depot could quite adequately explain why the TL=7 and starport is rated D on the mainworld, despite the presence of a naval depot elsewhere in the star system. One of the advantages of such an arrangement is that the TL=7 "local tech" is highly unlikely to be able to "interface properly" with the TL=15 standard equipment of the imperial navy ... which may suit both parties just fine. I mean, how much radio band clutter do you expect when the "neighbors" are using meson communicators instead?

 

[TamsinP]

CT S9, p6:
NAVAL BASES
A naval base has several distinct parts to it; each helps achieve the general purpose of naval harbor.
...
The heavy maintenance section supervises almost all battle damage repair and the construction of any naval vessel being built at the starport it is attached to. Emergency facilities are generally on hand to accomodate several ships at once in general repair.

That is then contradicted by the entry for Naval Base in Supplement 11: Library Data N-Z (p10):

Maintenance sections at naval bases vary from base to base. Where such a section
would be redundant to the local starport shipyard, it is small, and repairs or
alterations are carried out under contract to the local facility. Where adequate
facilities do not exist, the naval base itself may have a large maintenance section
capable of extensive repairs and refits. Maintenance is performed on the ships on
the world surface or in orbit as necessary.

 

[mike wightman]

TL10 Regina has a TL15 IN base and a TL15 General shipyard that build IN ships...

 

[McPerth]

Returning again to the OP, about BCS, one of the things importatn for combat is to see when and how does it occur, to see what rules must reflect.

I’ll try to see from narrative POV:

Usual situation:

A fleet jumps into a hostile system with the intent of refueling and heading to the main planet. There is a defense fleet there (otherwise there will not be combat).

Possible scenarios:

Ambush:

While there’s no stealth in (deep) space, around a Gas Giant things may change.

First scenario is opposite fleet is in the GG while the entering Fleet gets out of jump. If they are jumping at a safe distance (let’s say 4-8 hours away) a protracted battle will be fought, but that will give the defenders more time to ready if they are not at the GG, as they will need the time to go to it to refuel. If they as close as possible to the GG for a quick refueling, they may have to confront the defending fleet just as they come out of jump. The first ships to enter normal space will find the defenders also surprised, but as they keep appearing, the defender fleet would be ready for battle and time to response is minimal for the attackers. Important point here: coordinated jump.

The second scenario is there’s no defense Fleet in the GG, but SDBs lurking inside. The GG may fool the sensors, as the Gravity, heat and radiation of the GG itself may well confuse them. If the ships are attacked while refueling, missiles will have extra power, as atmosphere will increase explosions effects, and any MD damage may be catastrophic in such delicate maneuvers. Important point here: sensors

Passing shoot:

In this scenario the defenders are in the main planet, and, as they detect the incoming Fleet around the GG, they move to intercept (e.g. to avoid damage on the main planet). Of course, if the incoming fleet sees them too numerous, they will jump away and no combat will be fought, but otherwise, as they are accelerating to the main planet and the defenders are accelerating towards them, the most likely scenario is a few shoots exchange as they overpass each other (akin a medieval joust) at very high speeds. The defender will try to turn to return to the planet, while the attacker will do likewise if his target is the fleet, but will not if the target is the planet. If the attacker keeps towards the planet, the defender will arrive there while the battle is either already fought there or still in course (unless they have a large G advantage against the attackers).

Protracted battle:

This is the battle more represented in the games, where both fleets form their lines and fight each other in a battle of attrition, and would occur (mainly) if the GG is defended but the attacker can assemble the fleet before the battle or if the defender waits for them on the main planet. In the former case, the defender is likely to launch missiles to intercept (smart ones that accelerate toward the incoming fleet, keep speed while closing and maneuver to attack when close). Even missiles that just release a clout of metal balls may be quite damaging if the incoming fleet is accelerating at full thrust for the main world (if they go slower, the trip may even take weeks, allowing the defender to call for reinforcements to nearby systems), as relative speeds would be enormous. Here sensors and maneuverability (Agility, if you want to call it) of the incoming fleet are critical.

Once they reach the main world, probably at low relative speed, battle will ensue as protracted, being mostly an attrition battle. Depending on situation and capcities, orbital or word surface defenses may have a rol.



Other combat scenarios or situations you can think about?

 

[whartung]

There are a couple considerations regarding the Battle for the Gas Giant.

The first is that enemy activity arrives at 100D. For Jupiter, that's 14.3Mkm. Even for space, that's a Long Way. In TNE, with its 30,000km hex size, that's 475 hexes in range. At 3G, it's a 12 hour trip to the gas giant.

It is fair to say that the electromagnetic and spectral environment surrounding the Gas Giant is powerful enough to effectively blind most any sensor the approaching fleet may have. As soon as the fleet starts to arrive, the SDBs etc orbiting the GG will detect a flurry of anomalous shadows and ghosts on the sensors to provoke the SDBs to "go deep" and wait for them to arrive. They won't all go deep, something will stay up "in the clear" in order to alert the hidden ambushers that the ships are on their way, and when they're close. Could just be sensor satellites.

The next question is really whether the SDBs will truly be hidden as the invading fleet gets closer. I would imagine it would be routine for the fleet to send lead elements to start taking out sensor platforms and such, to try and blind the SDBs. I also assume that there's doctrine to deal with this. They may be able to better probe the GG for the presence of SDBs, perhaps have ships or sensors that will dive deep as well, trying to root them out, trying to get a scale of the threat.

The fleet will be particularly vulnerable during refueling for two reasons. First, they're on well defined courses. They're fueling, and skimming, they're in the higher G field of the planet, and what they are not doing, is janking and jinking and evading. Also, the most vulnerable fleet elements may well be the ones in harms way -- fuel shuttles, tankers, etc. Ships not designed to be shot at, ships without major defenses.

The good news, is that the GG atmosphere is an effectively impenetrable armor for lasers, and particle accelerators, perhaps energy weapons. None of those travel well in atmosphere, much less the thick atmospheres of a GG. This means that the SDBs pretty much "have to surface" before they can engage the fleet. And they'll need lock ons before they can start launching missiles. These could be handed to them from sensor platform, however, assuming there are any left.

Which goes to the next point of how viable are SDBs in this role in the first place. Why not simply just wait in orbit.

The fleet is thirsty, but it's not some dumb herd of horses willing to drink bad water. They'll take their time to suss out the situation. If nothing else, there's some gist of intelligence on the system as to what may be waiting for them.

Finally, the SDBs I think are going to have to be comparable in size to the invading fleet. None of those "400 ton SDBs", not in a big ship universe. If the fleet is bringing 10-20-30K ton battle riders and 100K ton BBs, the SDBs will need to be similar.

Because a key point here is that the SDBs can't fight a delaying action. Obviously it depends on the system structure, but with your generic "GG in the outer system, rocky people worlds in the inner system", any elements from the inner system are a week+ away. The invading fleet has a full week to blast the SDBs to smithereenies and fuel. So, all the SDBs can do is either be powerful enough to prevent the fleet from arriving at all, or sacrifice themselves to degrade the fleet in some way by damaging them, but, inevitably, losing the battle.

The latter suggest a quite strong force guarding the GG (assuming there's only one). Is that really the best place for those forces when they could instead be reinforcing the main worlds which are the "real" potential targets and what you really want to protect? Having an enemy fleet dancing in the outer system is certainly threatening, but if they're not attacking the actual targets of value, are they really actually accomplishing anything? They could pin a defending fleet to be sure, but it's an expensive way to do it.

Now, I can certainly see a value for patrol SDBs, in more a Coast Guard role to keep an eye on pirate, smugglers, and other potential ne'erdowells that may want a free drink, the type of nefarious parties authorities may want to keep tabs on.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That is then contradicted by the entry for Naval Base in Supplement 11: Library Data N-Z (p10):

It's not really a contradiction:

CT S9, p6:
NAVAL BASES
A naval base has several distinct parts to it; each helps achieve the general purpose of naval harbor.
...
The heavy maintenance section supervises almost all battle damage repair and the construction of any naval vessel being built at the starport it is attached to. Emergency facilities are generally on hand to accomodate several ships at once in general repair.

CT S11, p10:
Maintenance sections at naval bases vary from base to base. Where such a section
would be redundant to the local starport shipyard, it is small, and repairs or
alterations are carried out under contract to the local facility. Where adequate
facilities do not exist, the naval base itself may have a large maintenance section
capable of extensive repairs and refits. Maintenance is performed on the ships on
the world surface or in orbit as necessary.

Some have, some don't, it's not a general rule. Rule 0 in action...


How many US naval bases have a dry dock fit for a carrier and can rip out and replace the nuclear propulsion system? Norfolk, San Diego, Pearl? How many can't? (Sorry, as you can see I have no idea.)

 

[kilemall]

It's logical to think ships can be scuttled, the question is if they will, and, IMHO, this is not a technical matter (how to do it), but a setting matter (war laws, uses and custoums).

I think so unless the hulls are conditional for a “favorable” surrender.

When actually maneuvering, the ships going agility dead through drive/plant/computer/bridge/fuel hits end up tying the fleet to current vee and course if the fleet is still protecting them in the reserve.

The question then becomes which ships are repairable in the time frame of the battle and which ones are too far gone. An additional question for admirals to determine is whether they are winning or withdrawing. If the latter, scuttling the ships being left is important.

Another scuttling option is friendly fire- auto hit, no nuclear dampers.

Finally, crew is a critical resource even with frozen watches. Transferring them to fighting, repairable or ultimately jump escape ships is a better use then stranding them on 3/4 dead boats.

 

[McPerth]

If the latter, scuttling the ships being left is important.

This was discussed in the thread I gave the link in post #166 this smae thread, back before you joined this board (that's why I gave the link)...

Basically this would be dependent on war laws and custums, and so setting dependent. In Age of Sail few officers would accpe the unnecessdary loss of life scuttling represented, in WWII no one would have surrendered his ship...

 

[kilemall]

This was discussed in the thread I gave the link in post #166 this smae thread, back before you joined this board (that's why I gave the link)...

Basically this would be dependent on war laws and custums, and so setting dependent. In Age of Sail few officers would accpe the unnecessdary loss of life scuttling represented, in WWII no one would have surrendered his ship...

I’m assuming scuttling in fleet combat occurs in the reserve and enough small craft exist to take off the crew. As such scuttling actually saves them from going down and potentially on board for a win or a jump out.

Piracy is different in age of sail or our space game, the ship is a bargaining element for treatment of the crew (ransom of course being an exception).

In my Oort Cloud setting, the metal poor environment means any hull even scrapped is worth its weight in gold, much less actual spare parts.

In dire circumstances, life support supplies could be valuable too, although surrendering crew might be deemed expendable in that case.

 

[McPerth]

I’m assuming scuttling in fleet combat occurs in the reserve and enough small craft exist to take off the crew.

That assumes a crippled ship may move from frontline (where it has been crippled) to the reserve. IIRC in HG no rule prevents it, but from the POV of narrative is quite difficult to swallow...

 

[kilemall]

That assumes a crippled ship may move from frontline (where it has been crippled) to the reserve. IIRC in HG no rule prevents it, but from the POV of narrative is quite difficult to swallow...

Agreed HG does it that way, in my maneuver version they are screened 10000 km or less away so easy for either the ship or the fleet to go back and forth.

A screened ship that fires has given solid active emissions and is therefore not in reserve anymore.

 

[McPerth]

So, what should BCS be and what should it feature (some of them repeated from previous posts)?

• Which weapons would be more decisive? Spinals (like in CT:HG single ship engagements)? Missiles (like in HG Fleet engagements)? Beams (like in MgT1E:HG)?
• Which roles would take fighters? Decisive (as in SW or BG)? TL dependent (like CT:HG)? Irrelevant or inexistent (like in ST)?
• Which role would take robots/drones/AI?
• How will different TLs affect? How much difference is decisive?
• How do crew quality affect (see that this is probably lessened as robots/drones/AI take more importance)?
• To which point should maneuver be abstracted/detailed? Just long/short range (CT:HG)? range bands (MgT1E:HG)? Fully tactical game (CT:LBB2/Mayday, and good luck on it if you use large fleets)?
• To which point damage should be abstracted/detailed?
• Which should be the ratio of destroyed (defined as too damaged for easy repair, as in MgT1E:HG and Traveller OUT narrative)/crippled (defined as easily repairable hulls, as in CT:HG)?

Once all this (and probably more) is decided, some more points (IMHO):

• Sensors should play a role (while there’s no stealth in space, identifying or locking on is entirely another matter, as on fighting SDBs hiding in a GG or deep seas).
• PB defenses (sand and anti-missile fire) should be general modifiers, not battery vs battery (more as MgT1E:HG than as CT:HG)
• I keep thinking the passing shoot engagement should be represented, not only the protracted ones (as defined in my post #192, this own thread)

And as for more strategic campaigns (though I guess that’s a step more than intended here)

• How to represent interface combat (while not specifically the issue on this thread, something Traveller never really addressed, AFAIK, despite its emphasis in planetary invasions on its narrative)
• Coordinated jumps
• Repair/refit
• Role of Bases

And sure I forget many things...

As you see, it's easy, more so if you add the requierement of simplicity