Big Naval Ships in the Traveller Universe

[McPerth]

I see you edited the OP to reflect some of the comments given alogn the thread. IMHO there are some of your statements that needen't to be (depending on the kind of BCS you want):

Losses ("Out Of Action") take a LONG TIME to get rebuilt and replenished.

Historically this hasn't always been true. In Age of Sail the captures after a naval battle may make the winner even stronger than before, despite having had losses (the British fleet in Napoleonic Wars used many 74 gun SOLs, despite not building them, being captures).

Of course, he term "a LONG TIME" is always relative...

Those captures need to be taken to a base and then repaired and crewed, let's say 3-5 months, but when any operation is going to take weeks, I would not say it a long time (less so when building them will take years).

Own losses would probably be in line quite sooner, as tenders/ausiliaries/mobile bases would be able to repair (at least) some damage, and they are already crewed (even if losses have been andured).

TL changes which weapons are effective -- what works in one TL might be invalidated in the next TL.

This may be tricky, as you optimize your ships to fight similar TL ones, and the effectivity of those weapons may not be so much against even lower TL ones...

In the Flaklands War (1982), he General Belgrano had to be sunk with an old torpedo, as the other weapons HMS Conqueror carried could have been not effective against such an armored cruiser. The reduction of armor in most ships had made the modern weapons to be ineffective against armored ships.

Fighters are not useful against heavy armor and defenses.

Why so? Fighters may be decisive (in swarms, of course, not individually). They may carry similar weapons (in less quantity) than larger ships and can have a role, even agains such armored Capital ships.

And hey are heroic and cinematic (I guess the main reason they are so used)


And another important point on what we want Space Combat to be:

What role would autonomous robotics have on it? Would it be a sophont matter or a robot/drone/AI matter?

 

[infojunky]

Ok, I have kinda following all of this. As such, I care less about the specifics of the ships, but way more about the Logistics of it all.

Couple that with deployment strategies, give me more of idea of what naval operations look like.

What do fleet resupply assets look like, how about convoy protection for the logistics train?

Related, how much support can a navy base provide?

 

[mike wightman]

I.ve just gone back and read Rob's conclusions so far.

Please for the love of Gygax do not consider the Tigress the best model.

The HG design is fudged, and there are canonical 1,000,000t BB

 

[Condottiere]

It would seem that canonically, the Tigress class is the largest feasible starwarship.

Depending on the edition, there are probably better optimized designs.

If we use Classic, then three hundred kilotonne hulls can absorb meson gun hits, though since most of their opponents probably have only access to technological level fourteen industrial base, they can afford to leave most of their line of battle at two hundred kilotonne dreadnoughts.

 

[mike wightman]

Do you read a lot of canon?

Although some older battleships of greater displacement
remain in service, the Tigress class dreadnaught is the largest line-of-battle vessel
currently in service with the Imperial Navy in the Spinward Marches.

 

[Condottiere]

Although some older battleships of greater displacement remain in service, the Tigress class dreadnaught is the largest line-of-battle vessel currently in service with the Imperial Navy in the Spinward Marches.

 

[mike wightman]

Which means there are bigger battleships elsewhere in the Imperium, the Tigress is just the largest in the Spinward Marches.

By the way your colour choice makes your post unreadable.

 

[McPerth]

The fact larger battleships are older also hints, IMHO, that the IN decided to go for not as large ships...

 

[mike wightman]

At the risk of hating myself - in the MT supplement all about Imperial warships - sorry I just can't bring myself to name it - there are several examples of TL14 and TL15 700,000ton BBs of different designs.

 

[TamsinP]

At the risk of hating myself - in the MT supplement all about Imperial warships - sorry I just can't bring myself to name it - there are several examples of TL14 and TL15 700,000ton BBs of different designs.

Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium?

 

[Condottiere]

The rules stipulate one spinal mount per hull, and with hundred kilotonne fleet carriers, it would indicate that at a semimegatonne, the Tigress class may be a tad inefficient for those two roles.

Canonically, the Imperium Navy regards them highly enough to have at least eight per sector.

Operationally, it has it's own organic aerospace group, so that Imperium Navy assets wouldn't be tied down protecting the accompanying fleet carrier.

 

[Carlobrand]

...
Historically this hasn't always been true. In Age of Sail the captures after a naval battle may make the winner even stronger than before, despite having had losses (the British fleet in Napoleonic Wars used mani 74 gun SOLs, despite not building them, being captures).

Of course, he term "a LONG TIME" is always relative...

Those captures need to be taken to a base and then repaired and crewed, let's say 3-5 months, but when any operation is going to take weeks, I would not say it a long time (less so when building them will take years).

Own losses would probably be in line quite sooner, as tenders/ausiliaries/mobile bases would be able to repair (at least) some damage, and they are already crewed (even if losses have been andured).

RAW, losing ships might be too badly trashed to be worth recovering but, if we're modding the rules a bit, then that becomes an attractive option.

...
Why so? Fighters may be decisive (in swarms, of course, not individually). They may carry silimal weapons (in less quantity) than larger ships and cna have a role, even agains such armored Capital ships. ...

Between the nuclear damper and armor, fighters become obsolescent at TL 13 and obsolete at TL 14. Their small missile battery can't penetrate the damper, and it becomes so easy to armor things that other fighter weapons do little or no damage even when they hit. But, again, if we tweak the rules a wee bit, they can become more useful without becoming a dominant force. Or, for those who like to see fighters dominate, one could tweak the rules a bit more.

 

[McPerth]

RAW, losing ships might be too badly trashed to be worth recovering but, if we're modding the rules a bit, then that becomes an attractive option.

I fully disagree here. with CT/MT:HG, most mission killed ships are easily recoverable and, with TCS rules, repairable. It's Narrative, not Rules, that say they were too badly trashed (or outright destroyed)

Between the nuclear damper and armor, fighters become obsolescent at TL 13 and obsolete at TL 14. Their small missile battery can't penetrate the damper, and it becomes so easy to armor things that other fighter weapons do little or no damage even when they hit.

That may be true in CT:HG, but sure it's not in MgT1E:HG, where fighters may well take out a battleship many times their total tonnage...

I cannot talk about other Traveller versions.

But, again, if we tweak the rules a wee bit, they can become more useful without becoming a dominant force. Or, for those who like to see fighters dominate, one could tweak the rules a bit more.

It's not about tweaking the rules, what this thread intends is to change them, to make a new set. If fighters will be decisive, irrelevant or TL dependant is one of the things to decide...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I fully disagree hwere. QIth CT/MT:HG, most mission killed ships are easily recoverable and, with TCS rules, repairable. It's Narrative, not Rules, that say they were too badly trashed (or outright destroyed)

Yes and no...

Ships are fairly easily repairable at a shipyard.
Getting battleship with multiple crits to a yard is less than trivial... Recovering a stricken battleship would require a tender costing about as much as a battleship. How many of those do you have lying around?

A Meson T gun that penetrates inflicts 19 rad hits and 19 interior hits, that is average 3.7 crits, presuming the target is 300+ kDt, otherwise extra size crits are inflicted.
Against a 200 kDt battleship that is average 4.7 crits and about 12% chance of a Ship Vaporised result. The likelihood of a JD or PP destroyed is 78%, thus immobilising the ship.
Against a 15 kDt battlerider that is average 11.7 crits and about 28% chance of a Ships Vaporised result.

If big mesons play, ships blow up...

It's not about tweaking the rules, what this thread intends is to change them, to make a new set. If fighters will be decisive, irrelevant or TL dependant is one of the things to decide...

Quite, this is not about LBB5, but what we want from a future ruleset.

I would say fighters are a significant part of OTU narrative and should have some role, if perhaps not as the main combatants.

 

[McPerth]

A Meson T gun that penetrates inflicts 19 rad hits and 19 interior hits, that is average 3.7 crits, presuming the target is 300+ kDt, otherwise extra size crits are inflicted.
Against a 200 kDt battleship that is average 4.7 crits and about 12% chance of a Ship Vaporised result.
Against a 15 kDt battlerider that is average 11.7 crits and about 28% chance of a Ships Vaporised result.

I accept your numbers, but even if so, a 28% of ship vaporized means a 72% repairable in a few months (at most) in a shipyard...

And most meson guns are not T, but on the range between J and N (at TL 15). That means quite less criticals, and so quite less vaporized and most repairable hulls.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I accept your numbers, but even if so, a 28% of ship vaporized means a 72% repairable in a few months (at most) in a shipyard...

And most meson guns are not T, but on the range between J and N (at TL 15). That means quite less criticals, and so quite less vaporized and most repairable hulls.

Agreed, if you win the battle...

If you lose, you retreat without the stricken ships unless you have enough tenders.


Battle riders actually have the advantage here as we have already paid for the tenders as part of the concept. Just screen them in the reserve and load them up.

How many battleship tenders do you have? One per BatRon? That means one damaged battleship per BatRon can retreat, the rest are lost.

 

[McPerth]

Agreed, if you win the battle...

Of course, and that means if you lose, not only you're weakened, but your enemy may be reinforced.

Again, quite akin Age of Sail...

 

[kilemall]

I accept your numbers, but even if so, a 28% of ship vaporized means a 72% repairable in a few months (at most) in a shipyard...

And most meson guns are not T, but on the range between J and N (at TL 15). That means quite less criticals, and so quite less vaporized and most repairable hulls.

The key aspect is repairable/refitted in a few months vs years of building.

In a hot war rapid refresh/replacement is worth their weight in iridium.

 

[whartung]

I accept your numbers, but even if so, a 28% of ship vaporized means a 72% repairable in a few months (at most) in a shipyard...

How many battleship tenders do you have? One per BatRon?

Indeed.

How long does it take to get a crippled 300K dTon ship to a shipyard in another system?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

How long does it take to get a crippled 300K dTon ship to a shipyard in another system?

From a battle in Efate/Regina to the shipyard at Rhylanor is 16 Pc, 4 jumps at J-4, about a month if you have a tender handy.
Repair takes one or two months if the shipyard has free capacity right now (in a hot warzone?).
One month back to the front while working up.
Total three-four months at the very best? If you have to send the ship to Mora, it's nine jumps, over two months either way, so six months total.

If you don't have a tender, send a courier to the yard at Rhylanor, one month.
Build the new PP/JD, one-two month?
Send an engineering ship with the new drives to Efate, one month.
Install the new drive, one-two months?
Total five months at best? You do have a repair ship and crew waiting around, don't you?

But how many 900 kDt battleship tenders do you have? A round-trip takes two months for each stricken battleship. How many losses do you take?



If you are the Zho it's far worse, you have no TL-14 yard in the Spinward Marches. You might have three-four month transport either way, an almost a year for the ship to return to duty, if you have lots of tenders and repair ships floating around. Probably better to build more frontline units and scuttle the stricken ships...