Big Naval Ships in the Traveller Universe

[McPerth]

The CT LBB2 rule is any A starport can build any TL ship up to TL15 Z drives regardless of world TL.

LBB2: Any ship can be built by any starport type A, TLs be damned.

That’s not how I read LBB2 (well, in fact TTB)…

TTB, page 82:
The technological level is used in conjunction with the technological level table to determine the general quality and capability of local industry.(…) In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt.

As Regina is TL 10, the maximum ships it can locally build are those with drives H. Of course it can import larger ones, but one can hardly expect it to be routine…

Of course, the Naval Base may have capacity to repair higher TL ships…

And, in any case, the Kinnunir is clarly a HG design, so HG should apply, if we want narrative and rules to match

But it’s clear this was not a priority for Traveller designers…

And this is one of the reasons I so insist in not repeating those errors if a BSC is ibntended to be developed that should match with narrative (as seems roboject’s intent)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That’s not how I read LBB2 (well, in fact TTB)…

Where is the TL limit?

TTB, p56:
Ship Design and Construction
Space ships are constructed and sold at shipyards throughout the galaxy. Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including starships with jump drives; any class B starport can build small craft and ships which do not have jump drives. Starports are explained under Worlds. The military procures vessels through these shipyards, corporations buy their commercial vessels from them, and private individuals can purchase ships that they have designed through them as well. The major restriction on the purchase of ships is money.

As Regina is TL 10, the maximum ships it can locally build are those with drives H. Of course it can import larger ones, but one can hardly expect it to be routine…

LBB5'80, p22:
Drives: Three types of drives are required for starships- maneuver drives, power plants, and jump drives. Non-starships may omit the jump drives. Some ships (such as express boats) omit the maneuver drives. All ships require power plants. Custom-built drives must be produced and installed while observing restrictions as to tech level and interior space. It is possible to include standard drives (at standard prices) from Book 2 if they will otherwise meet the ship's requirements; such drives use fuel as indicated by the formulas in Book 2.

Custom (LBB5 percentage) drives are limited by TL, standard (LBB2 lettered) drives are apparently not.

Published example (you're going to hate this):

A TL-12 ship with Z-drives. Part of the Eurisko fleet in JTAS#10, p39.

 

[kilemall]

The LBB2 tech level limit if one were to apply it is the letter drives section of the technology table, the same one with fission/solar/fusion for power.

Personally I’m good with the import/assemble letter model just cause of how well starship engineering parts travel. But the rules could readily be interpreted in a similar manner to LBB5’s, if using just LBB2.

 

[McPerth]

Where is the TL limit?

In the table in pages 86-87, when cuppled with the TL definition I quoted above

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In the table in pages 86-87, when cuppled with the TL definition I quoted above

There is no hard rule:

TTB, p82:
The tables indicate the general types or categories of goods in general use on the world. In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt.

 

[Carlobrand]

...
As Regina is TL 10, the maximum ships it can locally build are those with drives H. Of course it can import larger ones, but one can hardly expect it to be routine…
...

I thought Regina was TL12 now.

At any event, Regina's not too far from Rhylanor, and shipping is rather inexpensive compared to the cost of a ship. Might be worthwhile for a Regina builder to absorb the cost of shipping in order to be competitive with the yards at Rhylanor. One of the great CT Book 5 civilian shipping debates was that low tech Book 5 merchantmen weren't economically competitive with their higher tech counterparts. Another was that the maintenance requirements made the starport rule problematic: a need for annual maintenance in a setting in which maintenance was limited to the local tech level and travel was a week or two per jump would essentially tether TL15 ships to Rhylanor, Mora, Trin, and Glisten. If nothing else, the Imperium needed to be able to do maintenance on ships using places closer to the border bases. Some rules just aren't logically defensible.

On the other hand, any TL15 equipment is a tempting target for pirates. If the Imperium doesn't want dual-use tech - especially computers, but possibly also powerplants - getting to the Sword Worlds or the Vargr, they may place restrictions on the use of such tech in merchantmen.

 

[McPerth]

There is no hard rule:

The only hard rule is rule 0, but if we accept this, what are we discussing here ?

I thought Regina was TL12 now.

This is another can of worms, but when Kinnunir was written it was TL10...

Might be worthwhile for a Regina builder to absorb the cost of shipping in order to be competitive with the yards at Rhylanor.

It might be, but it would probably be easier and cheaper to buld the ship on Rhylanor itself...

And, before anyone takes it to bear, current world is not a valid example of economically viable to buy components from aboard, as instant communications and short travel times is what allow it.

If you need a component on regina, it will take 2 weeks if you can charter a J5 ship to make your supplier in Rhylanor to know it (7 weeks if you send it by X-boat, due to curious x-boat lines, but that's another discussion)

 

[Carlobrand]

...

It might be, but it would probably be easier and cheaper to buld the ship on Rhylanor itself...

And, before anyone takes it to bear, current world is not a valid example of economically viable to buy components from aboard, as instant communications and short travel times is what allow it.

If you need a component on regina, it will take 2 weeks if you can charter a J5 ship to make your supplier in Rhylanor to know it (7 weels if you send it by X-boat, due to curious x-boat lines, but that's another discussion)

If I'm buying a ship on Regina, presumably I am on Regina. I'm given a choice between sending a message to Rhylanor with the usual travel times to order the ship, and the ship will take the usual travel time to travel to Regina, or I can order the ship on Regina and they can send a message with the usual travel times there and the part will take the usual travel time to get here. I'm not seeing a time saving in that, and I'm seeing a good deal more inconvenience than I as a businessman want. The shipyard here on Regina has offered to sell me my multimillion credit ship, and they will absorb the several thousand credits per dTon cost to ship the part here in order to score the several millions in profit that will result, and because it would take the same amount of time for me to get a message there and get the ship here as it would take for the builder to acquire the part, I've lost nothing in the process. That has nothing to do with the benefit of instant communications and short travel times in the modern era. It's simply an expression that, against the cost of the ship, the cost of shipping is peanuts. This is true of a lot of items, else there wouldn't be much interstellar trade.

 

[mike wightman]

How many ships per year is General producing on Regina? Does it order parts from Rhylanor in batches or is there a continuous just in time supply of parts?
Every A and B starport can maintain any ship or smallcraft up to TL15 regardless of world TL too, so the flow of parts on commercial shipping must be pretty regular.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The only hard rule is rule 0, but if we accept this, what are we discussing here ?

This is what I call a hard rule:

LBB5'80, p20:
Technological Level: Technological level is important in the design of a ship because it governs where the ship may be produced, and how well the crew can operate and maintain it. The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed (a class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship). Equipment and components of a starship may always be equal to or less than the ship's tech level.

Still subject to change by Rule 0, of course.

 

[McPerth]

This is what I call a hard rule:

Then tell me how could the Kinnunir be built in Regina. Maybe the drives, using the LBB2 ones and so stretching the rules could be, but the Black Globe is clearly TL15, and Regina TL10 (at least when Kinnunir was written, as Carlo said there was controversy latter)

And before you say the rule talks about the TL of the shipyard, not the world, the parethesed part (a class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship) seems to disagree with this view...

 

[mike wightman]

Let's take a look at the next paragraph:

The Imperial Navy may procure ships of up to tech level 15, although it also procures vessels at tech levels 10 through 14.

I note it does not say where these shipyards are or what the TL of the local world is. Thus the IN may buy ships built from TL15 shipyards that are located on worlds that otherwise are not TL15. If there is an IN base then there are TL15 facilities.

A subsector navy may procure ships at any shipyards within its borders. A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

"May procure from any shipyard within its borders" - does that mean the subsector borders or, if the subsector is part of a much larger polity, from anywhere within the polity's borders?

 

[kilemall]

Then tell me how could the Kinnunir be built in Regina. Maybe the drives, using the LBB2 ones and so stretching the rules could be, but the Black Globe is clearly TL15, and Regina TL10 (at least when Kinnunir was written, as Carlo said there was controversy latter)

And before you say the rule talks about the TL of the shipyard, not the world, the parethesed part (a class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship) seems to disagree with this view...

Setting issue- Dukes get what they want, including the local support infrastructure for little pocket battlecruiser for subsector interventions and paying for the extra import costs.

Pretty sure only Sector Dukes and Grand Admirals and Emperors are only ones to say no.

 

[McPerth]

Thus the IN may buy ships built from TL15 shipyards that are located on worlds that otherwise are not TL15. If there is an IN base then there are TL15 facilities

That's not what I read from your quote (though sure your English is better than mine)...

What I read is that IN also procures TL10-14 ships, not only TL15 ones. Nothing in your quote makes me think a TL10 planet may have TL15 building yards...

And IN bases are able to repair and maintain TL15 ships, sure, but to build them if the planetary base TL is lower? I have some doubts about it... After all, GIbraltar could repair the nuclear submarine, but could it build it?

"May procure from any shipyard within its borders" - does that mean the subsector borders or, if the subsector is part of a much larger polity, from anywhere within the polity's borders?

The text you quoted didn't say this. It said A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector. IMHO this answers your question...

Setting issue- Dukes get what they want,

Within the realm of possibilities... If your base industry is 5 TLs inferior, I have serious doubts they can support it (see that 5 TLss inferior to our own RW would mean TL2-3, so renaissence. Despite Da Vinci imagination, could they really support the building of a nuclear submarine, or an airplane?

 

[kilemall]

That's not what I read from your quote (though sure your English is better than mine)...

What I read is that IN also procures TL10-14 ships, not only TL15 ones. Nothing in your quote makes me think a TL10 planet may have TL15 building yards...

And IN bases are able to repair and maintain TL15 ships, sure, but to build them if the planetary base TL is lower? I have some doubts about it... After all, GIbraltar could repair the nuclear submarine, but could it build it?



The text you quoted didn't say this. It said A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector. IMHO this answers your question...



Within the realm of possibilities... If your base industry is 5 TLs inferior, I have serious doubts they can support it (see that 5 TLss inferior to our own RW would mean TL2-3, so renaissence. Despite Da Vinci imagination, could they really support the building of a nuclear submarine, or an airplane?

Not to be indelicate, but do you think Mexico could natively build cars from scratch including the engineering, material fabrication including steel and composites, and the electronics? No, the parts are imported but assembled there. Therefore they have car factories, just not the parts or native capacity to design them.

 

[McPerth]

Not to be indelicate, but do you think Mexico could natively build cars from scratch including the engineering, material fabrication including steel and composites, and the electronics? No, the parts are imported but assembled there. Therefore they have car factories, just not the parts or native capacity to design them.

Mexico is at most a TL below the world's maximum, and so the parts they work on and anssamble. Do you believe the Borgia's Italy, despite their knowledge, could have done it, even if they'd had the parts?

That's what 5 TLs difference mean...

 

[kilemall]

Mexico is at most a TL below the world's maximum, and so the parts they work on and ansseamble. Do you believe the BOrgia's Italy, despite their knowledge, could have done it, even if they'd had the parts?

That's what 5 TLs difference mean...

With DaVinci, sure. Metallurgy would be a problem.

 

[Condottiere]

Furnaces.

As I recall secondary world history, the Chinese might have that covered.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I note it does not say where these shipyards are or what the TL of the local world is. Thus the IN may buy ships built from TL15 shipyards that are located on worlds that otherwise are not TL15. If there is an IN base then there are TL15 facilities.

"May procure from any shipyard within its borders" - does that mean the subsector borders or, if the subsector is part of a much larger polity, from anywhere within the polity's borders?

That's not what I read from your quote (though sure your English is better than mine)...

What I read is that IN also procures TL10-14 ships, not only TL15 ones. Nothing in your quote makes me think a TL10 planet may have TL15 building yards...

And IN bases are able to repair and maintain TL15 ships, sure, but to build them if the planetary base TL is lower? I have some doubts about it... After all, GIbraltar could repair the nuclear submarine, but could it build it?

There is no problem or inconsistency:

The general rule is :

LBB5'80, p20:
Technological Level: Technological level is important in the design of a ship because it governs where the ship may be produced, and how well the crew can operate and maintain it. The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed (a class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship).

In general, ships are built at shipyards (starports), and limited to the TL of the world.

En exception has been made for Regina, as is RAW:

LBB3'81, p7:
Finally, the referee should always feel free to create worlds which have been deliberately (rather than randomly) generated. Often such planets will be devised specifically to reward or torment players.

Regina has a shipyard that can build at least small ships of higher TL.

That does not overrule the general rule for other worlds.

 

[McPerth]

En exception has been made for Regina, as is RAW:

LBB3'81, p7:
Finally, the referee should always feel free to create worlds which have been deliberately (rather than randomly) generated. Often such planets will be devised specifically to reward or torment players.

Regina has a shipyard that can build at least small ships of higher TL.

That does not overrule the general rule for other worlds.

Again we don't read the same here...

As I read it, the fact the referee should always feel free to create worlds which have been deliberately (rather than randomly) generated means, IMHO, that you can assign the UWP numbers as you want (or need for you campaign). This would allow a referee to decide that Regina, despite having only a +6 to TL (due to starport), is TL 15, and taht would have been fine, but once TL10 is assigned, the rules from HG should apply when building ships.

Of course, YMMV, and there's always rule 0, but, again IMHO, it keeps as an inconsistency (what does not mean illegality)...