Blue Darrians Petition!

[Ishmael]

Why? Do you feel superior to people with diabetes or less than perfect eyesight? Do you feel superior to blue humans, for that matter?

Foul!
Why call into question my own personal system of ethics on this matter? Unless you are stating openly that Darrians are really "Ishmaels-in-rubber-suits", it is completely irrelevant.

Also, the maladies you mentioned are poor analogies in that only albinism is obvious to an observer, unlike the prejudices I've described. People who are visibly different from the majority such as with gigantism, wolfman's disease, morbid obesity, microencephalitis, elephant man's disease, insanity, and on and on.
Name a human culture that treated all as welcomed equals instead of as freaks for circus side shows to be gawked and ridiculed.
Animals fear those that are different from their own group. Even if its not politically correct to say so.

Then they wouldn't fix it. But either way I see no reason why they would stigmatize it.

If they don't fix it, then blue darrians exist in the OTU.
If they don't stigmatize it, then they wouldn't fix it unless asked, and thus blue darrians exist in the OTU.
Regardless of how they are written up.
Or just say, " The science is solid! It doesn't break anything except for the fact that they have never been mentioned. but the community is prejudiced against them, so no." THAT would be ironic.

Since I didn't estimate how long that would take, I can hardly have underestimated it. What I estimated was how long it would take for the post-Maghiz emergency to last. Which would be until everybody died out or until the number of people fell to equal the carrying capacity of the land they lived on. Either way that's not going to take more than a year or two.

I believe you opined that it would take several generation for the recessive gene to show in a significant part of the population AND that by the time blue darrians manifest themselves, the post-Maghiz period will have been over by a good century. Which too short of a recovery time from what is essentially an extinction event. If 80% of the darrians died, then what about all the other living things on the world? Trophic cascades all over the place and very likely strong climate change too. Yes, they'll fit the world's new carrying capacity ( they obviously didn't die out or else their write-up would be for ruins ) but it'd take a long long time..long long long time to be able to return to their previous glory and even then, their world is changed permanently by it, thus the new peak would be different than their earlier peak...possibly different cultural traits and beliefs too.
But extinction events and carrying capacity and post-holocaust settings need its own thread.

I'm done with this little exercise for now.
I have other fish to fry concerning the k'kree, carrying capacity and simple climate sims elsewhere.

It was a good discussion.

 

[rancke]

Name a human culture that treated all as welcomed equals instead of as freaks for circus side shows to be gawked and ridiculed.

From the writeup about the blue humans, their neighbors seems to have treated them as no big deal. That's one. I believe Western culture don't make a big deal of albinism nowadays. That's two.

Animals fear those that are different from their own group. Even if its not politically correct to say so.

Humans sometimes manage to overcome their animal nature.

If they don't fix it, then blue darrians exist in the OTU.
If they don't stigmatize it, then they wouldn't fix it unless asked, and thus blue darrians exist in the OTU.

Only if they exist. If they don't exist, they don't exist. So far there is not a single canonical word about their existence.

Perhaps you meant to say that there's no reason why they can't exist in the OTU. No argument there. In fact, I said as much earlier. But would it be worth while to introduce them?

Or just say, " The science is solid! It doesn't break anything except for the fact that they have never been mentioned. but the community is prejudiced against them, so no." THAT would be ironic.

They're not going to become canonical until and unless they show up in an official publication.

I believe you opined that it would take several generation for the recessive gene to show in a significant part of the population...

Correct.

...AND that by the time blue darrians manifest themselves, the post-Maghiz period will have been over by a good century.

Also correct.

Which too short of a recovery time from what is essentially an extinction event.

You're making the unwarranted assumption that the basic philosophy of the Darrians would not be able to reassert itself until the world had fully recovered from the catastrophe. I submit that by the time society has recovered to the point that basic social functions have resumed, fundamental philosophical attitudes will also be back. A matter of years or even months.

If 80% of the darrians died, then what about all the other living things on the world? Trophic cascades all over the place and very likely strong climate change too. Yes, they'll fit the world's new carrying capacity ( they obviously didn't die out or else their write-up would be for ruins ) but it'd take a long long time... long long long time to be able to return to their previous glory and even then, their world is changed permanently by it, thus the new peak would be different than their earlier peak...possibly different cultural traits and beliefs too.

Yes, something as traumatic as the Maghiz might easily have given rise to different cultural traits and beliefs. But as we know from the canonical writeup, it didn't happen. Darrians preserved their old attitudes through the hard times. That's why they still have them by the Classic Era.


Hans

 

[ThunderChilde]

Another point from canon, Some of the Darrian flying cities survived the Maghiz untouched, and are still inhabited, never lost the tech base they were built with and were a source of help to the survivors. By the same token some of the cities are very insular and avoid outside contact.

What didn't make sence to me was that this fact didn't lead to a faster recovery, and the trope of lost knowledge when there were large urban techinical populations that passed through untouched. That was a head scratcher to me.

Oh and I still have no idea what Finlandized means, Ishmaels answer was not an answer to the question.

 

[rancke]

Another point from canon, Some of the Darrian flying cities survived the Maghiz untouched, and are still inhabited, never lost the tech base they were built with and were a source of help to the survivors. By the same token some of the cities are very insular and avoid outside contact.

I don't think there's any mention that those cities are pre-Maghiz constructs. If there is, I missed it. When I wrote up the Darrians for GT:Humaniti, I added a passage about them:

"Unlike the grav cars, the grav cities of modern Darrian cannot be made proof against stellar flares. A second Maghiz would see them plummet to the ground, just as their numerous pre-Maghiz counterparts did. In a strange way these cities represent the otherwise-prudent Darrians' one rude gesture at Fate. They were built centuries ago, when the regional governments of the basins were still semi-autonomous, as prestige projects." [AR5:47]​

What didn't make sence to me was that this fact didn't lead to a faster recovery, and the trope of lost knowledge when there were large urban techinical populations that passed through untouched. That was a head scratcher to me.

Yes, the loss of knowledge was a problem. not because of the flying cities, but because of the survival of the University of Zlodh. In the end, I had to ignore that little detail.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

From the writeup about the blue humans, their neighbors seems to have treated them as no big deal. That's one. I believe Western culture don't make a big deal of albinism nowadays. That's two.

not really and no.

1. The blue Fugate paper referenced made two comments about how they felt pained and shamed by their color. When Benjamin Stacey was born, medical students would crowd around him and make him cry just to watch him turn blue. It also mentioned how a TV show sent camera crews in order to display the blue people in the modern media form of a circus sideshow. Medical professionals that were mentioned seemed to have no idea that the blue skin was normal to members of that clan which indicated that knowledge of that clan's true condition was non-existent. The only reference to the condition being common knowledge and that they were accepted came from Hilda Stacey who is part of the clan, and probably had full knowledge of them and their existence as being normal for the duration of her life.

on albinism:
2. "Even today, a plethora of misconceptions about albinism persists. Bizarre characters (usually villains) labeled "albinos" with snow-white skin and hair, blood-red eyes, and supernatural powers plague the entertainment industry. Many people with albinism have been institutionalized and/or stripped of educational and vocational opportunities due to a misguided belief that the low vision accompanying the condition (on average, 20/200) prevents one from being able to adequately function in and contribute to society. Some members of the medical profession have even been known to recommend abortions to mothers carrying babies with albinism because it was thought that their children would die at an early age and would fail to lead productive lives. "

Humans sometimes manage to overcome their animal nature.

3. I specifically made mention of 'animal' behavior to underscore the fact that humans are animals. We humans are just another sort of mammal. Nothing more, nothing less. This animal behavior is the culmination of various behaviors and instincts that are passed on through genetics. Basic behavioral patterns are genetic based. This 'overcoming of animal nature' is learned behavior. This subject then becomes a discussion of nature vs. nurture.
These learned behaviors are the rules of conduct that must be followed to be part of a social grouping. For the western civilization, this would include the Judeo-Christian 'Ten Commandments', for example. These guides for proper behavior are taught to the young starting at an early age and the lessons are reinforced through-out life. Proper behavior is taught with stories ( Aesop's Fables ) and adult monitored play (misbehaving children get time outs or punished ). Popular media shows proper behavior by heroes and improper behavior by villains along with examples of the consequences of such behaviors.
This learned behavior varies from social group to social group and forms the basis for culture. Any individual must follow the appropriate behavior to be accepted within that social group. If the appropriate behavior is not followed, the the social group seeks to exclude any individual that does not follow the accepted cultural behaviors. This is exemplified by sayings such as "When in Rome, do as Romans do."
Naturally, anyone who exhibits differences of any significance from the accepted norm as defined by the social group will be excluded from that social group. Visual differences are most easily seen, thus are most quickly discriminated against. Behavioral differences are discriminated against as soon as such differences from the learned culutral behaviors are discovered.

Only if they exist. If they don't exist, they don't exist. So far there is not a single canonical word about their existence.

The reason there is no canonical references is obviously because the authors never knew that there is a hard science reason for blue skinned humans' existence as well as real-world examples. Also, as has been stated in other threads in the past ( iirc at least ) " Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. "

Perhaps you meant to say that there's no reason why they can't exist in the OTU. No argument there. In fact, I said as much earlier. But would it be worth while to introduce them?

yes
I've already answered this sort of question.
Perhaps you should give reasons why they shouldn't be introduced into canon.
Given how you were against Dragoneer's version of blue darrians on the grounds of hard science ( copper blood required different biology and thus would not be able to interbreed as canon already states ), perhaps you'd like to explain why such a concern for hard science is so easily tossed aside for this version.

They're not going to become canonical until and unless they show up in an official publication.

Obviously.
What I find to be confounding is the level of resistance to the idea of it. Already, comments have been made, by more than a few people, that could be seen as discriminatory were the blue darrians an actual real-world ethnic group. Why? Because they are different from what has been widely accepted.
They probably won't be accepted into canon, regardless of the science or storyline behind them because most people simply don't like them. So far, there has been no other reason for their exclusion. They are already being discriminated against and there are even racial epithets for them, I believe.
Irony, FTW!

4. After doing some research into solar flare events, CME's and SPE's, etc., I think there needs to be a detailed description of exactly what the Maghiz was. From such a description, actual effects leading to the extinction event can be predicted. Just please no references doomsday 2012 wacko sites. Until some reasonable descriptions of exactly what happened emerge, there is no reasonable way to describe the manner in which the darrians and their culture were affected and thus no reasonable way to discuss how long it would have taken for the darrians to recover.


ThunderChilde:
How was the question about 'Finlandization' not answered? I stated why the term came to my mind. I provided the quote that inspired such a thought and then I gave a link the the wikipedia entry for Finlandization which explains it far better than I could. Beyond that, "Google is your friend."

btw, how come no one else is providing external, non-Traveller specific references to back up their arguments?

-------------------
samples of sites related to the topics discussed

1. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kyperry3/Blue_Fugates_Troublesome_Creek.html
2. http://www.albinism.org/popcult/intro.htm
3. http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/docs00/Gray-3.doc
4. http://www.breadandbutterscience.com/SSTA.pdf

 

[rancke]

not really and no.

Yes, really. While blue humans and albinos are obviously not considered normal, they are not being persecuted by, in the first case, their neighbors (which was the community I was referring to in the first example). And while albinos are still being discriminated against to some degree, the trend is lessening in Western society. Perhaps 'Western society' is too broad a term. Let me amend that to 'some Western countries'.

I must confess that I was surprised to hear about the members of the medical community who reccommend abortions of albino children, but I wonder where exactly these people practice and how widespread that trend is.

The only reference to the condition being common knowledge and that they were accepted came from Hilda Stacey who is part of the clan, and probably had full knowledge of them and their existence as being normal for the duration of her life.

Exactly. An isolated community who has full knowledge of a group of people who are manifestly different and still accept their existence as being normal. All the examples of treating them like freaks are about outsiders.

3. I specifically made mention of 'animal' behavior to underscore the fact that humans are animals. We humans are just another sort of mammal. Nothing more, nothing less. This animal behavior is the culmination of various behaviors and instincts that are passed on through genetics. Basic behavioral patterns are genetic based. This 'overcoming of animal nature' is learned behavior. This subject then becomes a discussion of nature vs. nurture.

Yes, and you seem to be arguing that animal nature will inevitably cause blue Darrians to be persecuted. But since the Darrians espouse a philosophy that enjoins them to overcome their animal nature, I think there's some chance that they might, you know, overcome their animal nature.

These learned behaviors are the rules of conduct that must be followed to be part of a social grouping. For the western civilization, this would include the Judeo-Christian 'Ten Commandments', for example. These guides for proper behavior are taught to the young starting at an early age and the lessons are reinforced through-out life. Proper behavior is taught with stories ( Aesop's Fables ) and adult monitored play (misbehaving children get time outs or punished ). Popular media shows proper behavior by heroes and improper behavior by villains along with examples of the consequences of such behaviors.

And for the Darrians that means the teachings of Derir Lipit, Yikan Yikan, and Notan Taledh a.k.a. The Code of Darrian.

Naturally, anyone who exhibits differences of any significance from the accepted norm as defined by the social group will be excluded from that social group. Visual differences are most easily seen, thus are most quickly discriminated against. Behavioral differences are discriminated against as soon as such differences from the learned culutral behaviors are discovered.

And if exhibiting thoughtless prejudice is the chief behavior that is discriminated against? The key term seems to be 'differences of any significance'. To someone who believes in magic and the evil eye, being blue might easily be considered significant; to someone who is raised to believe in the scientific method, not so much.

The reason there is no canonical references is obviously because the authors never knew that there is a hard science reason for blue skinned humans' existence as well as real-world examples.

I'm not going to bother to refute that argument, because it doesn't really matter why there is no canonical references. The salient fact is that there are none.

Also, as has been stated in other threads in the past ( iirc at least ) " Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. "

As I've pointed out a number of times, that adage is wrong. Absence of evidence is certainly evidence of absence. What it isn't is proof of absence. Sometimes the evidence is weak, sometimes it is strong. As I've already stated, blue Darrians could exist despite the evidence to the contrary (which is, BTW, not an absence of evidence but a postive statement concerning the range of Darrian skin colors).

Perhaps you should give reasons why they shouldn't be introduced into canon.

There aren't any. The reasons why I'm doubtful of your version I've already set forth.

Given how you were against Dragoneer's version of blue darrians on the grounds of hard science ( copper blood required different biology and thus would not be able to interbreed as canon already states ), perhaps you'd like to explain why such a concern for hard science is so easily tossed aside for this version.

I can't do that, since I'm not tossing aside any hard science evidence. You've brought to our attention the existence of a rare recessive gene that causes blue skin color in humans. This is evidence that a similar condition could exist among Darrians. It is not proof that if such a mutation did crop up in any isolated post-Maghiz community, but we'll take that as the basic assumption. But then you add to that the supposition that this mutation will persist for two millenia, that it will cause prejudice against the blue Darrians that will persist for all those centuries, yet not quite enough prejudice to cause the the gene to be eliminated. All of which moves from the area of hard science to (at best) soft science.

What I find to be confounding is the level of resistance to the idea of it. Already, comments have been made, by more than a few people, that could be seen as discriminatory were the blue darrians an actual real-world ethnic group. Why? Because they are different from what has been widely accepted.

Of the two versions I've seen, I've been vehemently against one because I thought it was utterly unbelievable, and doubtful of the second because I thought it didn't quite fit with established canon. That's two different levels of resistance for my part. Other people's remarks I won't answer for.

They probably won't be accepted into canon, regardless of the science or storyline behind them because most people simply don't like them. So far, there has been no other reason for their exclusion.

I just listed two other reasons above: a) Utterly unbelievable; b) Doesn't quite fit with established canon.

EDIT: BTW, just for the record, if I were writing up the Darrians right now, I would be strongly tempted to include blue ones just because of the recent debate, provided I could come up with a version that worked for me.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

I must confess that I was surprised to hear about the members of the medical community who reccommend abortions of albino children, but I wonder where exactly these people practice and how widespread that trend is.

Worse than that, in Africa, albinos are hunted and killed with an actual market for their body parts.

And while albinos are still being discriminated against to some degree, the trend is lessening in Western society

It is lessening only through efforts from such organizations as NOAH
http://www.albinism.org/

Exactly. An isolated community who has full knowledge of a group of people who are manifestly different and still accept their existence as being normal. All the examples of treating them like freaks are about outsiders.

You do realize that the members of that community are related to each other and hardly representative of 'Western culture". Discrimination against albinos is more representative of western culture, and I can affirm that such discrimination exists through first-hand knowledge. One of my daughter's friends in middle school was albino. This girl was ruthlessly picked upon by her peers. I know of it because I was called to the school several times because my daughter would get into fights often while defending her.

Yes, and you seem to be arguing that animal nature will inevitably cause blue Darrians to be persecuted. But since the Darrians espouse a philosophy that enjoins them to overcome their animal nature, I think there's some chance that they might, you know, overcome their animal nature.

I argue that 'animal nature', as you call it, will lead to blue darrians being discriminated against. Just as history has seen humans and human organizations that espouses philosophies that enjoin them to overcome their 'animal nature' discriminate and actively persecute other groups that are different from them. I choose to lean towards real history when I think of such things and away from purely fictional history which is often overly romanticized or biased in favor of the fiction authors own Utopian beliefs.

Keep in mind that my version is but one of many.
Some could be more severe ( no blue darrians because of genocide )
Some could be less severe ( treated the same as any minority in present day America )
Nothing has been officially accepted into canon.

And for the Darrians that means the teachings of Derir Lipit, Yikan Yikan, and Notan Taledh a.k.a. The Code of Darrian.

Yes, but how often has history on Earth been dictated by people or organizations that fully support the accepted beliefs yet shamelessly run havok through those same beliefs? Regardless of official Darrian beliefs' contents, to assume that all Darrians will follow them all the time and under all conditions in the manner that the original author intended is ridiculous.
Also such teachings might even be used as a reason to discriminate even as the Bible has been used in our own history...against fellow men but with a different skin color.
http://www.christianodyssey.com/bible/africans.html

And if exhibiting thoughtless prejudice is the chief behavior that is discriminated against? The key term seems to be 'differences of any significance'. To someone who believes in magic and the evil eye, being blue might easily be considered significant; to someone who is raised to believe in the scientific method, not so much.

"not so much" is not the same as "not at all"
So the matter of discrimination against blue darrians is a matter of magnitude?
Or perhaps the level of discrimination against them on this board and elsewhere implies that those posters do not believe in the scientific method? LOL
Nor do the great, but racially biased scientists of our world? LOLLOL

As I've pointed out a number of times, that adage is wrong. Absence of evidence is certainly evidence of absence. What it isn't is proof of absence. Sometimes the evidence is weak, sometimes it is strong. As I've already stated, blue Darrians could exist despite the evidence to the contrary (which is, BTW, not an absence of evidence but a postive statement concerning the range of Darrian skin colors).

Then why did you word the following statement to imply that they did not exist because there is no canonical word about them?

Only if they exist. If they don't exist, they don't exist. So far there is not a single canonical word about their existence.

So the only 'proof' that they don't exist is a single line about golden skin color written by someone who was not aware of the blue fugate's existence?
Perhaps Eskimos and Pacific Islanders don't exist because they are not mentioned in medieval texts on account that the authors were not aware of their existence?
The obvious answer is that canon information is incomplete or in some cases, inaccurate. And thus subject to change when new information comes to light. or at least it should be, if only to keep from republishing the same material over and over and over again.

Of the two versions I've seen, I've been vehemently against one because I thought it was utterly unbelievable, and doubtful of the second because I thought it didn't quite fit with established canon. That's two different levels of resistance for my part. Other people's remarks I won't answer for.

Fair enough although it would have been nicer if you had stated that as opinion and not fact backed up with non-Traveller references.
But you have accepted that blue darrians CAN be added to canon. Just not in the manner of my brief hypothetical write-up. That certainly shows less soft-science prejudice than a few players have.
Discriminated against yes? In the same fashion albinos are presently discriminated against? or do you intend to ignore the genetic based 'animal nature' despite the evidence that humans can't shut it off completely. Or perhaps the strain of doing so is what makes them stoic; the overt effort to suppress 'animal nature' and passion?
byw, didn't it take the darrians about 70 years ( 3 and a half generations )to accept the solomani into their culture fully and doesn't that length of time indicate a certain level of wariness/discrimination against humans that did eventually fade? ( I wonder how smoothly the integration went and how many of the solomani beliefs/culture had to be squashed and how much was accepted )

What sort of write-up would you have done?
Shall we discuss the Maghiz tragedy next?
I'm afraid that from this point forward, I shall discard anything not backed up with non-Traveller reference links as mere opinion.

Extinction level events...gotta love 'em!

 

[rancke]

Worse than that, in Africa, albinos are hunted and killed with an actual market for their body parts.

Good thing I didn't use Africa as one of my examples, then. I sure would have looked silly if I had.

It is lessening only through efforts from such organizations as NOAH
http://www.albinism.org/

And also because of a decline of superstition in the populations where it is lessening. It's been years since anyone in Denmark hunted down an albino and killed him for his body parts. In fact, I've never heard of a case, not even back in Medieaval times, though I certainly would not like to go out on a limb and claim that it has never happened (I tried googling for historic information, but with no luck).

The point is, I would expect such behavior to decline as the level of education rises. In any society.

You do realize that the members of that community are related to each other and hardly representative of 'Western culture".

Yes, I do realize that. That's why I mentioned them as two separate examples. Example one was an example of a small, isolated -- dare I say, comparatively backward? -- community that does not appear to have turned against a small subset of visually different members of the community. An example that proves that such persecution is not inevitable. The second example was 'Western society', which I'll retract to the extend of changing it to 'some Western countries'.

I could have added Africa as an example of a society that didn't discriminate against blue humans, but that would have been rather disingenious of me.

Discrimination against albinos is more representative of western culture, and I can affirm that such discrimination exists through first-hand knowledge. One of my daughter's friends in middle school was albino. This girl was ruthlessly picked upon by her peers. I know of it because I was called to the school several times because my daughter would get into fights often while defending her.

How often were you told that it was OK for the kids to pick on the albino kid because she deserved it (Note: Not the "kids will be kids" excuse for bad behavior on the part of one's own offspring, but "she deserves it because I believe albinos are bad"?

Yes, but how often has history on Earth been dictated by people or organizations that fully support the accepted beliefs yet shamelessly run havok through those same beliefs? Regardless of official Darrian beliefs' contents, to assume that all Darrians will follow them all the time and under all conditions in the manner that the original author intended is ridiculous.

What I'm assuming is that these beliefs will not be disregarded all the time and under all conditions for the better part of two millenia. Persecution in the years immediately after the Maghiz: Would be very likely if there had been any blue Darrians around. Persecution a century later: Possible, but also possibly not, and certainly not made any less unlikely by the existence of the official Darrian philosophy, not the fact that these aren't low-tech savages, they are low-tech descendants of high-tech people. Persecution for a while after tech level reach past what we have on Earth today: Possible, but unlikely. Persecution that persists for 13 centuries of TL9+: Very, very, very unlikely.

So the matter of discrimination against blue darrians is a matter of magnitude?

"Mummy, mummy, why is Devir blue? Is she an evil magical changeling?"

"I don't know why honey, but there's no such thing as magic or changelings. I'm sure there's some natural explanation. There always is."

Or perhaps the level of discrimination against them on this board and elsewhere implies that those posters do not believe in the scientific method?

I doubt that very much.

Nor do the great, but racially biased scientists of our world?

I think the terms "great scientist" and "racially biased" are mutually contradictory.

Then why did you word the following statement to imply that they did not exist because there is no canonical word about them?

I was refuting the statement you had made about their existence being proven because:

If they don't fix it, then blue darrians exist in the OTU.

If they don't stigmatize it, then they wouldn't fix it unless asked, and thus blue darrians exist in the OTU.

The correct statements would have been:

If Blue Darrians exist in the OTU AND they don't fix it, then blue darrians exist in the OTU.

If Blue Darrians exist in the OTU AND they don't stigmatize it, then they wouldn't fix it unless asked, and thus blue darrians exist in the OTU.​

I trust you can appreciate the difference.

So the only 'proof' that they don't exist is a single line about golden skin color written by someone who was not aware of the blue fugate's existence?

No, that would be evidence that they don't exist. And, as I've stated a couple of times, poor evidence, just as an article about human skin colors that didn't mention blue humans would be poor evidence that humans couldn't have blue skin.

Perhaps Eskimos and Pacific Islanders don't exist because they are not mentioned in medieval texts on account that the authors were not aware of their existence?

No, but neither are those medieval text proof that Eskimos and Pacific Islanders exists.

The obvious answer is that canon information is incomplete or in some cases, inaccurate. And thus subject to change when new information comes to light. or at least it should be, if only to keep from republishing the same material over and over and over again.

I agree, as you'd already know if you'd read my previous posts more carefully than you seem to have.

Fair enough although it would have been nicer if you had stated that as opinion and not fact backed up with non-Traveller references.

I don't believe I did.

But you have accepted that blue darrians CAN be added to canon.

I have? Why, yes, so I have:

As long as the mechanism is plausible and the Blue Darrians sufficiently obscure to explain why they weren't mentioned in the original writeup (much as blue humans aren't mentioned in most articles describing humans), I see no inherent reason why they shouldn't exist in the OTU. Whether they are worth while introducing is another question and would depend entirely on what the author of a writeup came up with to make them interesting.

Just not another noble warrior race, please? Pretty please with sugar on it?

Discriminated against yes? In the same fashion albinos are presently discriminated against?

In the same fashion I imagine albinos will be no longer be discriminated against if the Earth becomes a stable, prosperous world-wide society and remain so for the next millenium.

...or do you intend to ignore the genetic based 'animal nature' despite the evidence that humans can't shut it off completely. Or perhaps the strain of doing so is what makes them stoic; the overt effort to suppress 'animal nature' and passion?

We see humans ignoring their animal nature to one degree or another all the time. Living in celibacy, suppressing instinctual responses for social reasons, sacrificing themselves for total strangers, committing suicide. Maybe it is impossible for humans to shut off their animal nature completely, but I submit that treating someone with a different colored skin as just another person does not require shutting off the animal nature completely.

What sort of write-up would you have done?

I'm not sure.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

How about we drop this until such times as 'someone' writes up an article discussing blue darrians in an official sense then. Otherwise we'll just end up arguing semantics and "coulda-woulda-mighta's" 'till the cows come home. Its likely such an article may never come into existence, after all. I certainly have no interest in publishing anything. I'm far too lazy.

There is another thing about Darrians that I've discovered that really bother me.. the Maghiz.
The Traveller Wiki describes the maghiz event in more detail than I'd have imagined and in far worse terms than I could have imagined!
80% of all darrians dead in the course of 3 days!
unless that flare was a super-secret anti-darrian homing flare, then it must be assumed 80% of all life died in those 3 days.
That's SIGNIFICANTLY worse than the Permian-Triassic extinction event in both speed and magnitude!
There is no way they would be able to recover in the time frames you've mentioned and once trophic cascades and climate effects are accounted for, I doubt anything more advanced than paramecium would recover.
And here I was imagining the Maghiz as being like the Carrington flare but just more powerful, but not by enough to cause the carnage that the wiki describes!

racist scientists exist
Charles Darwin
Ernst Pascual Jordan
James Watson ( accused of racism, anyways )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism
http://users.dickinson.edu/~rhyne/232/Nine/RacistScientists.html
http://www.icr.org/article/bigotry-science/

And an article that may shed light on racism being 'learned' behavior that overcomes animal nature
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=racism-not-hardwired-scie

 

[rancke]

There is another thing about Darrians that I've discovered that really bother me.. the Maghiz.

Yeah, there are some serious problems with the Maghiz, but don't you think that should have a thread of its own?

racist scientists exist
Charles Darwin
Ernst Pascual Jordan
James Watson ( accused of racism, anyways )

And Darwin at least was a great scientist. But he wasn't a great scientist because of his racist beliefs and he didn't have access to the evidence on the subject that we have today.

Aristotle was arguably a great scientist. He also believed in the geocentric worldview. Nevertheless, I wouldn't expect anyone who believed in geocentrism today to be a great scientist.



Hans

 

[Ishmael]

I never said Darwin, or any other scientist was great because of their racism... just that racism and great science are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

And yes... another thread for Maghiz....
IMTU might be the best place for it, I think. No confusion that the views are directly canon related.
I'll open it with comment...

 

[ThunderChilde]

Pardon, missed the post where you answered your view of the Findalnization of the Darrians.

It doesn't fit. The Darrians use the Imperium as a counterweight to the Sword Worlds. They continue Psionic research and education, it is part of the university's realm of classes. All they've done is not discuss it with Imperials, and take steps to limit the circulation of Psionic papers and news to Imperial News Sources.

They are not nuetral, they are active in the Alliance with the Imperium in the Marches. Its not any different from choosing not discuss with my neighbors family issues, my financial situation, or how many Guns I own.

(Answer: More than I need, fewer than I want.)

 

[Arvig]

Hopefully this won't be seen as going off topic given where the discussion is going right now, but Mongoose Traveller's latest issue (#82) of the PDF magazine "Signs and Portents" has a preview of their Darrian alien module. Assuming this isn't changed (the book has been delayed now according to a post on their forums) if I recall right the preview does give a description of the Darrians that is pretty similar to the other OTU modules (Golden skin, very light or white hair, etc).

Here's a link to their online magazine, click on Issue 82 to download it:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=13

To quote a portion of the article from that issue of the magazine:

"Darrians are genetically predisposed towards water conservation, sweating far less than humans and possess white or light toned hair combined with a slightly reflective, gold coloured skin; both of which help reflect excess heat. Additionally the golden protremelanin pigmentation protects against high levels of ultraviolet radiation."

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with "Suppliment Four" (the person posting under that handle, obviously, not the LBB. ) or anyone else, but again I am interested to hear where people heard that MongTrav's Darrians were going to be white, not the OTU golden complexion. (Although to be fair if memory serves, this might be the first time I've seen it described as "slightly reflective", it's been a while since I read CT's Alien Module 8 or the GURPS Traveller Humaniti listing for Darrians, or any other Traveller's edition listing for them for that matter)

 

[Andrew M]

Hopefully this won't be seen as going off topic given where the discussion is going right now, but Mongoose Traveller's latest issue (#82) of the PDF magazine "Signs and Portents" has a preview of their Darrian alien module. Assuming this isn't changed (the book has been delayed now according to a post on their forums) if I recall right the preview does give a description of the Darrians that is pretty similar to the other OTU modules (Golden skin, very light or white hair, etc).

Given how much this thread had meandered you are distinctly on topic. I think so long as you mention one of the key themes Darrians, the colour blue or hereditary illness you should be fine. If on the other hand you were to reccomend the following article on "Clockwork & Chivalry" because you knew the authors, that would be a blatant plug and taking a liberty. (Just, an example you understand :devil. That said there is a thread on the Darrian supplement in the MGT subforum, which will get more attention than this one.

To quote a portion of the article from that issue of the magazine:

"Darrians are genetically predisposed towards water conservation, sweating far less than humans and possess white or light toned hair combined with a slightly reflective, gold coloured skin; both of which help reflect excess heat. Additionally the golden protremelanin pigmentation protects against high levels of ultraviolet radiation."

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with "Suppliment Four" (the person posting under that handle, obviously, not the LBB. ) or anyone else, but again I am interested to hear where people heard that MongTrav's Darrians were going to be white, not the OTU golden complexion. (Although to be fair if memory serves, this might be the first time I've seen it described as "slightly reflective", it's been a while since I read CT's Alien Module 8 or the GURPS Traveller Humaniti listing for Darrians, or any other Traveller's edition listing for them for that matter)

Well, I like the pseudoscientific 'petromelanin', although it could provide ammunition for those who are already hostile to this supplement. All of the misunderstandings seem to have stemmed from the artwork. There was an advert in an earlier S&P (#74) which featured a pale skinned, white haired elfin maiden in power armour. Ever since people have assumed that this defines the MGT Darrian. Aside from the elfin ears, pale skin, curvaceous plate armour and distinctly non-Traveller blast pistol this picture is pretty good. It beats the hell out of the second picture in this article.

 

[Arvig]

Given how much this thread had meandered you are distinctly on topic. I think so long as you mention one of the key themes Darrians, the colour blue or hereditary illness you should be fine. If on the other hand you were to reccomend the following article on "Clockwork & Chivalry" because you knew the authors, that would be a blatant plug and taking a liberty. (Just, an example you understand :devil. That said there is a thread on the Darrian supplement in the MGT subforum, which will get more attention than this one.



Well, I like the pseudoscientific 'petromelanin', although it could provide ammunition for those who are already hostile to this supplement. All of the misunderstandings seem to have stemmed from the artwork. There was an advert in an earlier S&P (#74) which featured a pale skinned, white haired elfin maiden in power armour. Ever since people have assumed that this defines the MGT Darrian. Aside from the elfin ears, pale skin, curvaceous plate armour and distinctly non-Traveller blast pistol this picture is pretty good. It beats the hell out of the second picture in this article.

Fair enough. And yes, I've seen some MongTrav artwork depicting Darrians before as well, before Mongoose delayed their Darrian alien module they had the cover art posted on their site. Said art either had the same "elfin maiden" or one like her, she was as I'd describe her pale (or if golden, VERY faintly so) and in form fitting combat or power armor, along with a pistol that would at least be difficult to fit to any OTU handgun. Having said that, the other Third Imperium specific MongTrav books seem to have covers that take at least slight liberties compared to OTU descriptions of said aliens, even descriptions in the MGT books themselves. So, I guess for me seeing this cover didn't make me automatically assume that MGT was going to have white Darrians. (It did make me wonder why they weren't asking the fellow(s) they keep hiring to do their art to make the cover art look a bit closer to the OTU descriptions found in both other editions of Traveller and their own works, but I digress some perhaps)

Anyway, I might start to follow the thread you mentioned instead now, although I may lurk in this one to see where the Blue Darrain debate goes too.

Oh, for what it's worth if I do know anyone who works for and/or have published an article in S&P or any other Mongoose publication, it's a coincedence. To the best of my knowledge, past possibly reading a post of theirs on the Mongoose forums, I don't.

As an aside, I guess I never understood hostility toward an edition of Traveller that one wouldn't want to play. I'm not a fan of the whole "Virus" bit in TNE, nor do I like the TNE game mechanics. And although I have bought some GURPS Traveller suppliments, it's for the "lore" so to speak, I don't like GURPS rules. But I'd never be hostile toward someone posting "Hey, I love TNE, Virus makes sense to me" or "Hey, GURPS is the only way I'll play Traveller" (or for that matter insert any other Traveller edition.). It's their money as to what they buy and why, and it's their time spent playing a game how they want. Having so many editions of Traveller, past and present and I suppose in a way "future" edition if one wishes to define T5 that way to me just adds choices as to how we get to enjoy the Third Imperium. Well anyway, just my thoughts. I've rambled on enough.

 

[aramis]

As an aside, I guess I never understood hostility toward an edition of Traveller that one wouldn't want to play. I'm not a fan of the whole "Virus" bit in TNE, nor do I like the TNE game mechanics. And although I have bought some GURPS Traveller suppliments, it's for the "lore" so to speak, I don't like GURPS rules. But I'd never be hostile toward someone posting "Hey, I love TNE, Virus makes sense to me" or "Hey, GURPS is the only way I'll play Traveller" (or for that matter insert any other Traveller edition.). It's their money as to what they buy and why, and it's their time spent playing a game how they want. Having so many editions of Traveller, past and present and I suppose in a way "future" edition if one wishes to define T5 that way to me just adds choices as to how we get to enjoy the Third Imperium. Well anyway, just my thoughts. I've rambled on enough.

A large part of the hostility is that in the target edition, there's a lot to like, but the flaws get so in the way...

With TNE, the issue was multifold. It was supposedly traveller, but characters weren't on the same mathematical scales, the setting was ravaged by Virus, Virus worked in ways that require some serious deus ex machina methods to explain (specifically, Virus is either a psionic artifact, or the SDG transponder chips were able to release themselves from the transponder), and the nobles were nutted even in the regency. And then, there's Dave's Diatribe in H&I, and the ithklur being presented as a gag. It was, at the time of release, like Dave wanted to throw out everything that Traveller had done well in the past.

Mongoose, it's mostly that the continuity checking isn't there, and it leads to a split between would-be older edition refs and MGT trained players. There is really a lot to like, but there's also a ton of stupidity in certain books. And some major "We told you how to fix this problem in the beta, but no one was paying attention" flaws in the core.

Hate/dislike/like/love for the current edition is almost always relevant to older edition players, because the new edition generates more new players.

 

[Redcap]

No thank you.

Remind me too much of Na'vi...

Seconded: No for the above reason.

 

[Condottiere]

Could be interesting.

 

[gchuck]

Blue Darrians?

Where did they make an appearance?

Meh.

I already got blue people IMTU.

 

[Timerover51]

Blue Darrians?

Where did they make an appearance?

Meh.

I already got blue people IMTU.

I suspect that the source of the Blue Darrians is the writings of Murray Leinster in his "Med Ship" series. He has a novel about "blueskin" Darans which appears on Project Gutenberg. It first appeared in Amazing magazine under the title of "Pariah Planet", and then in book form as This World Is Taboo published by Ace Books. Both can be found on Project Gutenberg. It is a pretty good story, and all of the Med Ship series stories are worth the read. They give a good basis for a Medical Doctor character.