Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Which is why so many marginal worlds have such hi pops in Traveller! Something for everybody.
(Gotta hit the rack, now.... Arrrrggghhhh...zzzzzzzzz!)
Building an Arcology
- Thread starter robject
- Start date
(Gotta hit the rack, now.... Arrrrggghhhh...zzzzzzzzz!)
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
My diamter is 90m just for the inner core. And, I think cubes would be problematic: 1) you would be looking at a wall, instead of an inverse horizon - talk about feeling like you're inside! 2) dust always gathers in corners - so less cleanup with a sphere! and 3) you can't really use the space close to the "walls", as they have stuff sticking out from them, too.
Originally posted by Scott Martin:
I can just imagine needing to get Johnny down from 60m in the air because he was in the park when someone turned on one too many mix-masters
NOW I have to call it a night....
Scott Martin
SOC-13
So running "cost" numbers for the aformentioned "massive" orbital arcology, all prices in MCr.
Base Hull: 3,366
"Day/night: panels: 1,683
Life Support: 7,540 (note 1)
Solar Panels: 3,000 (note 2)
Solar Cells: 4,500 (note 2)
Total Arcology Cost: a hair under 20,100 MCr
For a population density similar to the Netherlands, this is an investment per person of just under 500,000 Cr.
For a family of 2.5 this would require a "Family Income" of 250,000 Cr/year (assuming a 25 year mortgage at ~5-6% interest) Given that development of this type is likely partially subsidized and / or allowed to be amortized across a longer period.
Using a 40 year term, the same as starships, the "Family Stead" would be a monthly payment of Cr 2,604, or an annual payment of 31,250 Cr. This assumes that this structure is the personal property of those folks who live there *with no corporate or government ownership whatsoever*
My guess at property ownership in "western" countries would be that about 10% of the land is owned by "middle class" citizens, with the rest owned by governments, corporations or the "super-wealthy". If the "Family Stead" is only paying for the property that it directly sits on (200 square meters/10% of the average area per citizen, and this is probably generous) then the annual payment is reduced to a little over 3 Kcr, probably well within the realm of the TL-11 "Average Joe", even with a "stay at home" parent.
If solar costs are brought in line with nuclear plants, then the cost of this arcology is reduced by almost half, with the vast majority of the "cost" being the life support cost: reducing this by a further order of magnitude puts the "base" hull at around 6 Billion Cr. At this price, if the "Average Joe" family can afford to put 10 kCr a year into "housing" expenses, they can but arcologies outright.
For "Canonistas" the full cost using 100% power (the "cheap" fusion way, no solar arrays) and cost for type-4 life support would be in the 850 billion range, a factor of 40-ish increase, almost entirely because
1) life support is volume based, not biomass based.
2) We don't have life support numbers for anything other than starships.
In this scenario "Average Joe" rents, or lives in a shoebox.
Even with this "worst case" scenario this construct is still several orders of magnitude less expensive than construction using CT / HG. Even if it models only the structure and life support. This is "virgin" land and would need industry, commercial development agriculture, transportation infrastructure and housing to be fully fitted out.
_____________________________________________
Note 1: Life support cost reduced by a factor of 100. Life support "power" provided by "windows" to provide power with an efficiency equal to solar panels at the same TL. This provides sufficient power to meet the (exhorbidant) life support power costs. Solar panels provide 0.15% of this "required" power, which should be sufficient to run pumps, recirculation motors etc. Failing this, dump the solar cells, spend as much on a fusion plant and assume that a "fixed" life support installation takes up more volume but is 1/10th the cost.
Note 2: Whay are solar panels so damned expensive in FF&S? a fusion or fission plant with the same output at tech/11 would cost 105 MCr. (about 1.5% the cost) For some reason components with much lower tolerances and a massive surface area penalty which should be significantly easier to manufacture cost more than 70 times as much for the same output! This is an area that I would flag to be fixed for FF&S-3...
Scott Martin
Base Hull: 3,366
"Day/night: panels: 1,683
Life Support: 7,540 (note 1)
Solar Panels: 3,000 (note 2)
Solar Cells: 4,500 (note 2)
Total Arcology Cost: a hair under 20,100 MCr
For a population density similar to the Netherlands, this is an investment per person of just under 500,000 Cr.
For a family of 2.5 this would require a "Family Income" of 250,000 Cr/year (assuming a 25 year mortgage at ~5-6% interest) Given that development of this type is likely partially subsidized and / or allowed to be amortized across a longer period.
Using a 40 year term, the same as starships, the "Family Stead" would be a monthly payment of Cr 2,604, or an annual payment of 31,250 Cr. This assumes that this structure is the personal property of those folks who live there *with no corporate or government ownership whatsoever*
My guess at property ownership in "western" countries would be that about 10% of the land is owned by "middle class" citizens, with the rest owned by governments, corporations or the "super-wealthy". If the "Family Stead" is only paying for the property that it directly sits on (200 square meters/10% of the average area per citizen, and this is probably generous) then the annual payment is reduced to a little over 3 Kcr, probably well within the realm of the TL-11 "Average Joe", even with a "stay at home" parent.
If solar costs are brought in line with nuclear plants, then the cost of this arcology is reduced by almost half, with the vast majority of the "cost" being the life support cost: reducing this by a further order of magnitude puts the "base" hull at around 6 Billion Cr. At this price, if the "Average Joe" family can afford to put 10 kCr a year into "housing" expenses, they can but arcologies outright.
For "Canonistas" the full cost using 100% power (the "cheap" fusion way, no solar arrays) and cost for type-4 life support would be in the 850 billion range, a factor of 40-ish increase, almost entirely because
1) life support is volume based, not biomass based.
2) We don't have life support numbers for anything other than starships.
In this scenario "Average Joe" rents, or lives in a shoebox.
Even with this "worst case" scenario this construct is still several orders of magnitude less expensive than construction using CT / HG. Even if it models only the structure and life support. This is "virgin" land and would need industry, commercial development agriculture, transportation infrastructure and housing to be fully fitted out.
_____________________________________________
Note 1: Life support cost reduced by a factor of 100. Life support "power" provided by "windows" to provide power with an efficiency equal to solar panels at the same TL. This provides sufficient power to meet the (exhorbidant) life support power costs. Solar panels provide 0.15% of this "required" power, which should be sufficient to run pumps, recirculation motors etc. Failing this, dump the solar cells, spend as much on a fusion plant and assume that a "fixed" life support installation takes up more volume but is 1/10th the cost.
Note 2: Whay are solar panels so damned expensive in FF&S? a fusion or fission plant with the same output at tech/11 would cost 105 MCr. (about 1.5% the cost) For some reason components with much lower tolerances and a massive surface area penalty which should be significantly easier to manufacture cost more than 70 times as much for the same output! This is an area that I would flag to be fixed for FF&S-3...
Scott Martin
IMTU the Matriarchate began its life at mid-late TL8, so no gravitics, no modern cheap fusion... Just a sleeper-ship with a primitive fusion reactor and a bussard drive and several smaller fission-powered craft. Eventually they've discovered gravitics and efficient fusion (they are now late TL12), but that means that their planetoid motherships (10Kdton-100Kdton) could land on their planet of choice whenever desired (to mine raw materials, for example) as long as it lacks atmosphere. Plus they prefer living in smaller, highly mobile belting/habitat ships (a few Kdtons), far from any centralized government and close to the raw resources of the planetoid bekts.
Gnusam Netor
SOC-13
I don't think that volume is the most important factor when it comes to farmin in archolgies, it's a trade off between several factors like price, energy consumption, maintanance/labour costs, and volume.
At TL 7 the volume necesary would be less IMO then you believe Robject. The growth area of 250m/dude at TL 7 (BIO 2 tech?) with a height of 2m gives us 35.7dT, add some marginal and reduce some for experience of growing stuff in archolgies, I settle at 45dTons. I assume that the consumables are grown "old school" even at TL13 but with all kinds of gizmos that comes with higher tech.
Vegetable diet:
TL 7: 45 dT/person
TL 8: 40 dT/person
TL 9-10: 35 dT/person
TL 11-12: 30 dT/person
TL 13+ : 25 dT/person
Mixed Diet (1/4 meat):
To harvest the same amount of nutrients, animals need 20 times the area or something?
TL 7: 260 dT/person
TL 8: 230 dT/person
TL 9-10: 200 dT/person
TL 11-12: 170 dT/person
TL 13+ : 140 dT/person
At TL 7 the volume necesary would be less IMO then you believe Robject. The growth area of 250m/dude at TL 7 (BIO 2 tech?) with a height of 2m gives us 35.7dT, add some marginal and reduce some for experience of growing stuff in archolgies, I settle at 45dTons. I assume that the consumables are grown "old school" even at TL13 but with all kinds of gizmos that comes with higher tech.
Vegetable diet:
TL 7: 45 dT/person
TL 8: 40 dT/person
TL 9-10: 35 dT/person
TL 11-12: 30 dT/person
TL 13+ : 25 dT/person
Mixed Diet (1/4 meat):
To harvest the same amount of nutrients, animals need 20 times the area or something?
TL 7: 260 dT/person
TL 8: 230 dT/person
TL 9-10: 200 dT/person
TL 11-12: 170 dT/person
TL 13+ : 140 dT/person
Gnusam Netor
SOC-13
That’s another thing, we can’t have people constantly getting sea sick now can we?
And I think most people *will* want to see the stars and a nearby sun, otherwise it will be too much of a starshipy feel.
P
Pickles
Guest
In a rotating cylinder? You mean clear floors? Starting to get that vertigo feeling ...
Gnusam Netor
SOC-13
???
no, windows will work fine too, or a clear dome.
edit:
ahh... slow brain day, for me that is.
I was talking about an archology shaped like a donut (or a very, very short tube). Rotating to reduce the need for installing grav-plates under the crops, and also to act as a fail-safe if the arch lost power for whatever reason.
no, windows will work fine too, or a clear dome.
edit:
ahh... slow brain day, for me that is.
I was talking about an archology shaped like a donut (or a very, very short tube). Rotating to reduce the need for installing grav-plates under the crops, and also to act as a fail-safe if the arch lost power for whatever reason.
Gnusam Netor
SOC-13
I checked up on Gurps space. They have different kinds of modules, farm, factory, housing and so forth, each covering ~10000dT and providing support for 100 people.
the farm module is described like this:
" An acre or so of open space with a few buildings devoted to agriculture and food processing. Up to 10 people or robots can work it efficiently, each worker can grow sufficient food to feed 10 people ..."
the farm module is described like this:
" An acre or so of open space with a few buildings devoted to agriculture and food processing. Up to 10 people or robots can work it efficiently, each worker can grow sufficient food to feed 10 people ..."
Scott Martin
SOC-13
1 person can feed 10? That's pretty incredibly inefficient! 19th century methods will give you better than 10:1 utilization IIRC by the 19th century "agricultural workers" in the USA were already below 10% of total population (down to 5% or so I believe) and that's a 20:1 ratio.
Current Ag production is probably at least 100:1 in "industrialized" nations. I can't believe that an interstellar polity doesn't use them new fangled contraptions like combines and tractors...
my WAG for "Crew" on an archology (engineers, biologists, life support, sensor ops, maintenance and ag workers) would be somewhere between 1:100 to 1:1000 depending on factors like automation efficiency and bureaucratic overhead.
Scott Martin
Current Ag production is probably at least 100:1 in "industrialized" nations. I can't believe that an interstellar polity doesn't use them new fangled contraptions like combines and tractors...
my WAG for "Crew" on an archology (engineers, biologists, life support, sensor ops, maintenance and ag workers) would be somewhere between 1:100 to 1:1000 depending on factors like automation efficiency and bureaucratic overhead.
Scott Martin
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Well, Scott, if its only an acre, you probably can only feed 10 people: if the module has to have its own power, its own air circulation, its own waste disposal, its own....
Here's a couple of questions for all: what takes up the most space in your living arrangements? And, how many redundant spaces do you have in your living space? (Things like a kitchen eat-in area AND a dining room.)
Here's a couple of questions for all: what takes up the most space in your living arrangements? And, how many redundant spaces do you have in your living space? (Things like a kitchen eat-in area AND a dining room.)
Obviously no farmers over there at GURPS or very bad ones, maybe why they left the farm and are at GURPS.
Now this is purely antedoctal but I've a cousin (a grain hopper) who works 800 acres pretty much by himself. I'm sure my uncle in his 70's helps from time to time but he's busy with his hobby cattle herd (only about 150 head) and his own farm. Of course they got them there huge shiny TL 8 tractors. With all the fancy options, air-conditioning, CD player, etc. With modern corn yields in the 200:1 ratio range I'm pretty sure he feeds alot more than 10 people.
Seriously, 800 acres is a pretty small set up. Not much more than 1 square mile.
But in an arcology things should be even easier. Insect control should be far easier. Irrigation? Just turn on the overhead sprinklers. Tilling the soil, would you even have soil? Since you have to bring in the nutrients anyway why not just some porous medium for root anchorage and hydroponic liquids for nutrients.
I'm available to discuss animal units, weather, rain gauges and shovels should the need arise.
According to the USDA, in 1900 40% of the population lived on farms (today, the figure is under 2%, but probably doesn't count migrant farm workers).
</font>[/QUOTE]Living on the farm and working the farm are two different things. Those 2% are also not working those farms to maximum efficiency and they are also feeding not just people in the US but exporting as well. The amount of land farmers are paid not to plant and the amount of excess grain, diary., etc. still produced is pretty large. There are many reasons beside ability to produce food that would make the farm to non-farm ratio 50:1 (2%).
Migrant worker needs are very crop dependent and pretty much non-existant for grain and corn. Migrnat workers are also not necessarily needed for some crops they just might be more cost effective than investing in the harvesting machinary especially if the crop is not grown every year.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Well, most of the folks who can handle a spade are working the farm if they live there, aren't they, Ptah? But, yeah, we let a lot of our ground go fallow every year because we are so darn efficient here at TL8.
And, the low labor costs for those migrant workers are a prime reason they still exist. If they had to be hired at normal labor rates, most places would see automation as more cost effective. (You know why I mention this, but I don't want to have to take this to the Political Pulpit...)
As far as a space arcology, automation would be the order of the day. I wonder how you might grow an orange tree in hydroponics, though.... Would the oranges be bigger if less effort went to making the trunk sturdy and the roots deep? (Cause you would support the tree in the vat, anyway......)
And, the low labor costs for those migrant workers are a prime reason they still exist. If they had to be hired at normal labor rates, most places would see automation as more cost effective. (You know why I mention this, but I don't want to have to take this to the Political Pulpit...)
As far as a space arcology, automation would be the order of the day. I wonder how you might grow an orange tree in hydroponics, though.... Would the oranges be bigger if less effort went to making the trunk sturdy and the roots deep? (Cause you would support the tree in the vat, anyway......)
Gnusam Netor
SOC-13
I don't think so. I believe it is reasonable that " 1 worker can feed 10", considering:
+ robots (and/or vehicles) are included in "worker".
+ it is in a (relativly) confined space, it is not the endless fields of Kansas.
+ more intense work of one acre produces more, take the japaneese style of farming for instance.
+ Food processing is included in this.
+ it is a nice round number.
+ Dude, it is in space!
Dare I mention the specter of genetically modified crops that produce lemon trees that look like short bushes. Maze that grows to a whopping 1 meter but sill produces twice as much as a TL-8 stalk.
“Dude, it is in space!”
You’re right! This is science fiction we can do whatever we want!
Bawhahahah!!!
“Dude, it is in space!”
You’re right! This is science fiction we can do whatever we want!
Bawhahahah!!!
Not really, at least on modern day farms the kids may be raised to help but not until 12 or older can you really help. Farming is also really dangerous work. If the kids aren't going to get into farming they are preparing for a college career and playing sports (you hope) instead of getting into trouble. In my parents day everyone lent a hand or you didn't eat, not so anymore.
I also wonder about the source of the living on a farm numbers. Are they census data and/or tax data? Living on a farm for census or tax purposes may not be the same as being a farmer in the following sense. Having more than 8 animal units in many states might require you to get permits to have them and make you a farmer. You may also classify your income or occupation under farmer if, e.g., you are a specialty cheese maker in Vermont. You have cows, you make cheese but are you in no way maximizing the amount of food you are producing. Rather, you focus on quality and specialty markets. The same could be said some organic food producers and other specialty foods (e.g., exspensive mushrooms).
Yeah. I'm glad my relatives stick to crops that don't use migrant labor to harvest. I still remember playing with migrant kids in the fields of other farmers though.
You don't need much support if you lower the G, you could also trellis. Many ways.
I can see that. If you count my cousins tractors, and all the sharp attachment thingies each as a worker he's got quite a number of workers.
How did you know he's in Kansas?
Couldn't agree more. But those workers could still be feeding more than 10 per worker.
The middle-men always bring efficiency down.
I can't comment on that part. I have know idea how large current (as a % of population) food processing infrastructure is. I imagine in the U.S. the snack-food infrastructure alone is tremendous.I missed the ideas of how big the arcology is, but all the food shipping and distribution probelms we have on continental scales should be much less in an arcology I would think.
I went them megacrops. Keep the gravity off in the farms and let the plants just grow. Corn the size of a dog. Dogs the size of corn, oh we already have those.
I'm glad we're talking crops. The stark reality may be that a genetically modified bacterium would be fed a feed solution of nutrients and just kick out "protein paste" or "complex carbohydrate paste". A few bugs to kick out vitamins and you have your well balanced meal. Yummy.
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