Character advancement

[Scarecrow]

It suddenly occured to me yesterday that I couldn't remember how experience worked in Classic Traveller. I was pretty sure it didn't use the old D&D standard XP for doing stuff, but I couldn't remember what system it did use. Then upon skimming the books (and I do mean skimming) I couldn't see anything at all.

So I looked in the Mongoose reworking of CT and equally (and quite surprisingly) came up empty.

So... How do characters advance in Classic Traveller, or Mongoose for that matter? Is there a system? Did I just miss it? or is this something that players had to house rule for themselves?

Crow

 

[McPerth]

There is no experience system per se in CT or MgT. You can improve skills by studying them (either by taking a sabathical or by finding someone with Instruction skill, if you used mercenary or HG).

There are such systems in MT, T4 (and I think also in TNE, but never involved on it, so I cannot tell you for sure), but hey used quite different systems to improve your skills.

 

[steventirey1985]

You advance in Traveller by learning new skills, not experience points like D&D. This is how Mongoose Traveller handles it:

Learning New Skills

A character’s Skill Total is calculated by summing the levels of each skill (level zero skills count as zero). A character with Mechanic 1 and Gun Combat (slug pistols) 2 would have a Skill Total of 3.

To increase a skill, a character must train for a number of weeks equal to his current Skill Total plus the desired level of the skill. So, to advance from Pilot 2 to Pilot 3 with a current Skill Total of 3 would take (three, plus three) six weeks. A character may only train one skill in a given week.

The Jack of all Trades skill cannot be learned.

In CT it takes years, not weeks. (If I remember right, one 4-year period of studying gives a temporary bonus of +1 to the skill, and a second 4-year study period makes that bonus a permanent rank. You could study 2 skills in each 4-year period.)

 

[Scarecrow]

Hmmm. This is very interesting. Mouseguard has a system whereby you are rewarded for playing your character. This reward is in the form of extra actions and bonus dice but as the skill advancement in Traveller seems to be almost fluff related, something that's done in downtime between games then those points might be used to perform that learning.

For example, each character has a goal, a belief and an instinct. You earn points at the end of a session for Acting on your instinct, acting on your belief, acting against your belief, working towards your goal and accomplishing your goal. On top of that there is also a reward for being the crucial player and also the party 'workhorse'.

This means that these points could be spent to buy downtime training in a given skill. It mechanically rewards players for playing in character.

Of course this is not how skills are improved in Mouseguard. The system there is that once you have succeeded a number of times equal to the skill level and failed a number of times equal to the skill level minus one, then it increases by 1 point (like Traveller the skills range from 1 to about 6). this means that the better you are at something the harder it is to improve but also means you learn from your failures almost as much as your successes.

I'm thinking of a system where you could cash in enough points for a skill increase of 1 maybe every two or three sessions. Alternatively either the MG skill improvement could be used and the character points could be used for something else. Extra Dice when making rolls etc.

Just a thought.

Crow

 

[nDervish]

I'm thinking of a system where you could cash in enough points for a skill increase of 1 maybe every two or three sessions.

Think about that for a minute.

A character coming out of chargen in CT has 1-2 skill levels per term. In MgT, it tends to be more like 3-4. Per four year term.

Gaining a skill point every 2-3 sessions is insanely fast unless you're covering six months of game time per session.

 

[McPerth]

In MgT, a level of skill is defined as years of experience, so a skill raising should be quite difficult.

Nevertheless, in T4, you adquired about 4-6 skill leels per term, yet you could raise them quite easili (mostly at low levels) in play.

 

[Scarecrow]

You speak truth. It was just a thought, really. I quite like the system and was wondering if I could apply it to Classic Traveller.

 

[Timerover51]

In D&D, it is assumed that you are just starting out your career. In Traveller, it is assumed that you have a lot of experience already from a previous career, and are starting either a new career, or a new phase of your previous career.

 

[hdan]

Though I have yet to use it in a game, I came up with this system a while back.

First, each segment of the campaign (or year, if you are sandboxed) has a list of potentially useful skills. These can be listed as either a skill name only (in which case it adds one level) or a Skill-Level (which gives the skill at that level).

At the start of each segment, a character may choose one of these skills as a "working" skill. If the character already has a "working skill", the player may either replace it with a new skill or choose to make it permanent, forgoing the chance to select a "working skill" for this segment.

For example:
Let's say you're starting "Mission on Mithril". The skill list might be something like:

ATV-1
Hunting
Recon

A character could do one of:
* Make an old "working skill" permanent
* Gain ATV-1. If the character already has ATV skill, this will not help them.
* Add a level of Hunting or Recon, even if the character has no skill in those areas already

The Referee must control the rate of advancement by how often new working skill opportunities are presented.

In this system, a character can tune themselves somewhat for each segment of the campaign, but has to "double down" to keep that skill. If you're feeling generous, you could leave any skill that wasn't kept as a "Level 0" skill - the character still remembers some of what they learned, but has no mastery of the subject.

You can decide if you want to force dedication rolls on the players before granting them a skill, but unless you're playing with a group that really likes the random thing, I suspect they will feel cheated.

 

[mike wightman]

The experience rules for CT are hidden in plain sight in the Experience chapter. It used to be part of LBB2.

You can gain a skill or two, or raise your Education, or go back to university.

The system allows you to keep gaining skills or attributes at roughly the same rate as you did during character generation.

What you can't do is play three games and have more skill levels or experience than a 7 term veteran. Which is what most of the D&D munchkins can't seem to grasp.

That said there is a very interesting last bit that gives the referee the freedom to come up with other methods of skill improvement and suggests military training and memoryRNA transplants for example.

 

[BillDowns]

At the end of LBB2, where it talks about experience, my 1st ed says that a PC may also take a sabbatical for 4 years to attend a tech school or college (at Cr 70,000!!). They will acquire a non-weapon skill at level 2 from that.

Also, at the very end, it says there may be - at referee's discretion - alternatives to increasing levels, such as RNA education, implants or other surgical techniques, military or mercenary training, etc.

 

[far-trader]

At the end of LBB2, where it talks about experience, my 1st ed says that a PC may also take a sabbatical for 4 years to attend a tech school or college (at Cr 70,000!!). They will acquire a non-weapon skill at level 2 from that.

I've often taken advantage of that, post career gen when the muster out funds are there to grab a couple skills before adventuring. Then start a physical program while adventuring to offset the age induced losses...

...but the real reason for this reply is to thank you and Mike for his just previous similar post, for (perhaps inadvertently) breaking a little mental block and unleashing my shriek of EUREKA!



I've been trying to come up with a few better muster benefits (some of the standards are... lame) and this one is BRILLIANT imo. And so obvious in hindsight (G.I. Bill... D'oh!)...

I'm going to add an Education Muster Benefit. Basically a free term of college or trade school per the above. Multiple acquisitions could be taken as more terms of education or an advanced version that uses that mentioned RNA programming to avoid the 4 years of time. And of course this leads to other Experience Muster Benefits (just like the real G.I. Bill).

Yep, I'm liking this direction, again thanks for the kick in the gray matter

 

[McPerth]

In this case, CT has, IMHO, the two extremes, you either need years to learn a new skill (LBB2, as Mike says) or you just need 6 weeks of intensive training (and someone with instruction skill and the one you want, both at higher level that your target).

Personally, I'd like to have the possibility to improve some skills with experience alone (albeit, as Traveller is, at slow pace, I agree with what I understand as the spirit of the rules in this point). MT gives this possibility, while T4 is (again IMHO) too generous in improving skills with experience.

 

[Bob Weaver]

The Experience system in CT is without a doubt very slow compared to lots of other games. This was intentional, as a rapid rise in skill levels would be very unbalancing, given the game's primary task mechanic of target or better on 2D + skills. I've written on my blog about this subject in two different entries:
http://deepinthestax.blogspot.com/2012/07/traveller-has-no-experience-points.html
http://deepinthestax.blogspot.com/2012/09/character-experience-and-development-in.html
Yes, Traveller characters are experienced veterans by the time play begins, but they can still improve from there. No, one is not likely to become a Sector Duke or demi-god, Traveller is very hard on munchkins. I've been playing Traveller for almost 30 years and the lack of rapid advancement hasn't bothered me a bit.

Cheers,

Bob W

 

[pendragonman]

Yes, Traveller characters are experienced veterans by the time play begins, but they can still improve from there. No, one is not likely to become a Sector Duke or demi-god, Traveller is very hard on munchkins. I've been playing Traveller for almost 30 years and the lack of rapid advancement hasn't bothered me a bit.

Cheers,

Bob W

Where is the friggin "like" button!

 

[Icosahedron]

Traveller has its own (very slow) advancement system, and to a degree this is necessary.
As described above, you can't have a PC three months out of his third term gaining more skills than a 7 term veteran. I think whatever system you use has to fall in line with the chargen advancement.

I've used a simple 'anniversary present' system. The later CT books have chargen providing typically 1 skill per year, so after a game year, I allow each character to gain one skill of their choice from a list of skills they've frequently or memorably used.

If they've picked locks every week for the past year, that would be a candidate for improvement on the basis of frequency. If one time they used their Survival skills to walk out of a desert, that would be a candidate on the basis of memorability.

 

[Scarecrow]

I've no problem with essentially static characters per-se. I was just wondering how it was done in CT. It's apparently in LBB2 which I didn't look in because, you know, it's about space ships and not characters :/

Thanks everyone.

 

[aramis]

Traveller has its own (very slow) advancement system, and to a degree this is necessary.
As described above, you can't have a PC three months out of his third term gaining more skills than a 7 term veteran. I think whatever system you use has to fall in line with the chargen advancement.

I've used a simple 'anniversary present' system. The later CT books have chargen providing typically 1 skill per year, so after a game year, I allow each character to gain one skill of their choice from a list of skills they've frequently or memorably used.

If they've picked locks every week for the past year, that would be a candidate for improvement on the basis of frequency. If one time they used their Survival skills to walk out of a desert, that would be a candidate on the basis of memorability.

Even that breaks the CT Bk 4/5/6/7 rate, Icos.

Remember: there's a skill gain roll in those books each year. Typically, 7+ (tho it ranges from 5+ to 13+ {aka "none"}). Most PC's will get about 2.6 skills per term in advanced CGen, and about 1.6 in basic CT. Also, Bk4/5/6/7 doesn't grant skills on promotion, only on school assignments or on the skills throw.

Note also: This got me thinking about MT's advancement rates.

MegaTraveller's stock 180 days per AT, and need to have 2AT to have a chance to raise a skill, and a 1/36 chance per month with only 2AT and Int 5-9...

So, for a character's prime skills...
Y0.5 1AT, no chance of raise.
Y1.0 2AT,
y1.5 1-(35/36)^6 ... 15% chance of raise. Gain 3rd AT at end
y2.0 1-(33/36)^6 ... 40% chance of raise; cum 49% chance. gain 4th AT at end
Y2.5 1-(30/36)^6 ... 66% chance of raise; cum 83% chance of raise. Gain 5th AT.
Y3.0 1-(26/36)^6) ... 85% chance of raise; cum 97.6% chance of raise.

So, the very lucky might make it annually; the very smart make it even faster (about 6 months faster). Most will make a level in 2.5 years.

MT thus allows for 2-4 levels per term in a single skill... but fails to limit the number of skills collecting AT's at once.

 

[Icosahedron]

Even that breaks the CT Bk 4/5/6/7 rate, Icos.

It probably does but, to be honest, I've never had a campaign last long enough for the skills to build up to breaking point. The rule is primarily a palliative to keep the munchkins quiet.
"Yes, yes, you'll get your skill increase next year..."

I can only remember one game ever covering more than a year.

If I ever had to justify it, I'd say that you tend to pay more attention to 'personal development' when you're working for yourself, so yeah, maybe adventurers will gain skills slightly more frequently than they would working for Uncle Streph. But not by an amount you'd notice in a Term or two.

 

[Bob Weaver]

It probably does but, to be honest, I've never had a campaign last long enough for the skills to build up to breaking point. .

Icosahedron,
I've never had a campaign run for a long time either, but what you say gets me to wonder. What does the game look like when lots of PC's have skill-5+ in multiple areas? Anyone ever had a game/campaign like that? How does it affect the 2D6 bell-curve game mechanic in actual practice?

Cheers,

Bob W.