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Character advancement

Iccy and Bob. I have had a couple of campaigns last multiple years. One lasted until character natural death at age 142, but that one was really a game of COMMERCE PRINCE where after the first year of physically dangerous adventures the characters transitioned to a multiple ship Merchant Prince empire building. No violence, no characters directly involved in pirate attacks. Lots of trade negotiations.

It bored me to tears, but it is exactly what these players wanted.

All the rest of my games have lasted more than a year only if you include the dead space of jump. Active timespace, a;ways less than a year, many less than three months after chargen.

I have found that if each character has at most one skill that is 5+ it isn't too bad, they still need to depend on each other and team work continues. When one character has more than one 5+ skill everything starts to tilt toward that player.


And Icosahedron, I didn't give them a "birthday" skill if you will. I gave them a chance to improve one skill that they have been using alot in the adventure just completed. An 11+ roll on 2 dice, no bonuses.
 
MT thus allows for 2-4 levels per term in a single skill... but fails to limit the number of skills collecting AT's at once.

Here is where the hand of the referee has to control how much ATs are given. IMHO, the higher the skill, the harder to get one for it. I think I may have a weeled vehicle skill 0 (driving licence, few to no experience). Should I survive a car racing, I'd probably gained 1 AT. For Michael Schumacher that would earn nothing, and he'd need many wins to achieve 1 AT to his driving skill.
 
What does the game look like when lots of PC's have skill-5+ in multiple areas? (...) How does it affect the 2D6 bell-curve game mechanic in actual practice?

Never had (neither as player nor referee) a character with more than one skill at 5+ (and very few characters with even one skill over 3, in fact), but I guess it would ruin the game, as any character becoming too powerful in any RPG.
 
Never had (neither as player nor referee) a character with more than one skill at 5+ (and very few characters with even one skill over 3, in fact), but I guess it would ruin the game, as any character becoming too powerful in any RPG.
I guess I'm just asking to be snarky without meaning to snark; ruin the game how? Can't a referee ratchet up the difficulty of skill-based tasks to maintain the tension of uncertainty? Besides, isn't a skill-5 character just as vulnerable as a skill-0 character to a bullet in the head? The lethality of Traveller combat is a great balancer.

Just to keep the conversation rolling, mind you.

Cheers,

Bob W.
 
Here is where the hand of the referee has to control how much ATs are given. IMHO, the higher the skill, the harder to get one for it. I think I may have a weeled vehicle skill 0 (driving licence, few to no experience). Should I survive a car racing, I'd probably gained 1 AT. For Michael Schumacher that would earn nothing, and he'd need many wins to achieve 1 AT to his driving skill.

Which does not in any way match up to character generation.
 
All the rest of my games have lasted more than a year only if you include the dead space of jump.

I would have thought that the jump time alone through many consecutive games, in particular in a campaign, would eventually add up to allow a character to gain or improve skills.

I recall playing Safari Ship (Adventure 10) where the entire timeline is about 3 months, a few adventures like that plus the intermediate passage of time between adventures should see a 4 year training course as perfectly achievable.

Book 2 does state that skills or characteristics are increased for the duration of the training, so there is an immediate benefit.
 
Here is where the hand of the referee has to control how much ATs are given. IMHO, the higher the skill, the harder to get one for it. I think I may have a weeled vehicle skill 0 (driving licence, few to no experience). Should I survive a car racing, I'd probably gained 1 AT. For Michael Schumacher that would earn nothing, and he'd need many wins to achieve 1 AT to his driving skill.

Which does not in any way match up to character generation.

It matches up in one way - it could match the total number of skills earned over a character's lifetime. Which is the point of the mechanic.

It's probably the way I'd go if I ever had the need.


As for whether characters with Skill 5+ would ruin the game, I don't know, I've never run one like that. I seldom allow skills over 3. My feeling is that a player who wants a character with skill 4+ is probably a munchkin who will derail my game in search of the limelight...

BTW, my understanding is that the point of the question was not to ask about 'ramping up' the plot, but to query whether the bell curve of the 2D6+DMs mechanic still functions at that level.
 
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It matches up in one way - it could match the total number of skills earned over a character's lifetime.

It might or it might not, depending on how free a hand the GM took with the ATs.

But making it harder to gain ATs for a high-level skill than for a low-level skill definitely doesn't match up with chargen making it just as easy to go from skill level 5 to 6 as it is to go from 1 to 2.
 
I guess I'm just asking to be snarky without meaning to snark; ruin the game how? Can't a referee ratchet up the difficulty of skill-based tasks to maintain the tension of uncertainty?

IMHO, it can ruin the game in several ways. It can unbalance adventures, make the plot turn too much along this one character while hopeless for other in the party (if you ratchet up the difficulty), etc...

Of course, it will depend on which skill we talk about and the kind of game we play. I guess a Medical 5 character will probably not ruin the game, just make it more survivable for all the characters (except himself, ironically). A pilot 5 in a game where your characters are a fighter mercenary squadron will make him the Ace of the squadron and makee him too important in comparison with any pilot 2 (a good pilot nevertheless) character.

Besides, isn't a skill-5 character just as vulnerable as a skill-0 character to a bullet in the head? The lethality of Traveller combat is a great balancer.

Again it depends on the kind of play you're conducting. When I refereed Traveller, my characters knew they'd better avoid combat if there was an alternative, as you say, combat may be quite letal.

A character with stealth 5, as an example, is as vulnerable (as you say) to a bullet in the head as one without stealth skill (not even at 0), but is quite less likely to be the target of such a bullet.
 
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Which does not in any way match up to character generation.

But making it harder to gain ATs for a high-level skill than for a low-level skill definitely doesn't match up with chargen making it just as easy to go from skill level 5 to 6 as it is to go from 1 to 2.

Sure, but, (IMHO) it's quite logical.

You can assume many things about chargen (very intensive training, very good instructors, when gaining high skill levels, or the opposite when not gaining them, etc).

EDIT: And less matching with chargen is the use of Instruction skill in MT (which may give you at worst 2 AT in 6 weeks for any skill, regarless of your level, if you find an instructor), and is at least as canon as the chargen rules...
 
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BTW, my understanding is that the point of the question was not to ask about 'ramping up' the plot, but to query whether the bell curve of the 2D6+DMs mechanic still functions at that level.

It depends on where you set the success level. For a +5 skill level die modifier, on a 2D6 roll, the minimum adjusted roll would be 7, and you have a 58% chance of achieving a roll of 12 or higher. If you set the success roll level such that a +1 Skill Level has a chance at being successful, the +5 skill level individual has a very easy time of it. If you make things difficult for that player, the lower skill level players are in trouble very quickly.

Your best option would be to allow for a roll of 2 on 2D6 to always indicate failure, and then have a hidden roll for overconfidence with respect to the high skill level player.
 
The Instruction skill, in LBB4 and MT is broken IMHO.

It should be no more effective than the other character advancement options.

I do it like this

1- can give lvl0 in a skill
2- can train lvl1 in a skill and lvl0 in a second skill
3- can train lvl1 in two skills or lvl2 in 1 skill
4- can train lvl2 in 2 skills
5- you cheated during character generation and die
 
Hi

Maybe it might be worthwhile to consider the DM's from having highly advanced skill levels as being "up to" a DM of +X.

Specifically, if someone had MED+5 I might give them the full +5 benefit if they have a well stocked medbay handy or if it is a particularly challenging task they are trying to attempt, but if they are just trying to set a bone fracture in the field with little medical tools, etc then maybe I'd rethink what kind of die roll modifier would be appropriate, as its unclear how a MD+5 character would do anything better than a MED+2 etc.

However, if the player can make a good justification for why they should get the full DM then as a GM I'd definitely take that into account.

Similarly, another thing to consider for characters with a high skill level is to try and determine if there are additional factors to consider.

For instance, if you are talking about something like a "broker" skill, I think the rules talk about how it may take a week to make a deal to buy or sell stuff. So, if the player doesn't put in time trying to make a deal & instead he and the rest of the players spend their time planetside going off on adventures then maybe I wouldn't give that player the full benefit of his +5 skill level, since he doesn't seem to really be using it as such.

Just some thoughts.

PF
 
PS. To the post above. Another thought is to try and differentiate what the DM modifier might mean to the character.

Specifically, if a character has something like "Handgun+5" (or whatever might be the equivalent in the rules that you are playing, then as a GM I could see maybe giving the player up to that level of die modifier in some cases but not others. Specifically, maybe if they are firing a high TL well built and balanced handgun designed for minimal recoil then I could maybe see a high DM.

However, on the other hand, if the character were to pick up a 17th or 18th type dueling pistol and try and use it, then maybe I'd think that the inherent inaccuracy of the weapon itself may come into play and limit the players positive DM for firing it.

That doesn't mean however, that I wouldn't necessarily not give the player a potentially high DM for repairing, modifying, or even building such a weapon, but rather just that some weapons are going to have built in inadequacies that even the most skilled character may have troubles overcoming. And, unless the player can give a really compelling reason to the contrary I'd consider maybe capping the DM (or maybe its effects) for some situations to reflect this.

PF
 
PS. To the post above. Another thought is to try and differentiate what the DM modifier might mean to the character.

Specifically, if a character has something like "Handgun+5" (or whatever might be the equivalent in the rules that you are playing, then as a GM I could see maybe giving the player up to that level of die modifier in some cases but not others. Specifically, maybe if they are firing a high TL well built and balanced handgun designed for minimal recoil then I could maybe see a high DM.

However, on the other hand, if the character were to pick up a 17th or 18th type dueling pistol and try and use it, then maybe I'd think that the inherent inaccuracy of the weapon itself may come into play and limit the players positive DM for firing it.

That doesn't mean however, that I wouldn't necessarily not give the player a potentially high DM for repairing, modifying, or even building such a weapon, but rather just that some weapons are going to have built in inadequacies that even the most skilled character may have troubles overcoming. And, unless the player can give a really compelling reason to the contrary I'd consider maybe capping the DM (or maybe its effects) for some situations to reflect this.

PF

True. I do pretty well with a .45 Colt, but a flintlock smoothbore is a different case entirely. I do shoot blackpowder, so I probably could safely load and fire it, as to hitting something, that is another matter entirely. There is a famous quote to the effect that no man has ever been wounded by a smoothbore musket, provided that the firer aims at him, if the range is over about 150 yards.
 
Not everything requires a roll. Rolls are mostly for atypical situations and combat 'simulation'. Normally breathing and urinating don't need a skill check. ;)

Rolls should only be required when there is a reasonable chance of failure - not just because a character is attempting any old task.

CT always played loosely with rolls, so this should hardly be any problem. For the checks defined in the books, it well could mean that many such 'routine' tasks are automatically successes and there really is no need for a roll.

High skill levels are worthy of tasks that require their skill to have some chance of success... largely that may mean extenuating circumstances - and mechanics wise simply means adjusting the roll target appropriately.

I'd give that Med-5 character the full +5 DM in the example above - but the target roll for setting a bone under said circumstances would not be the same as if the Med-5 or Med-2 where in excellent facilities. In the latter case the Med-5 might not need a roll for simply setting a bone, but the Med-2 might (depending on TL).
 
EDIT: And less matching with chargen is the use of Instruction skill in MT (which may give you at worst 2 AT in 6 weeks for any skill, regarless of your level, if you find an instructor), and is at least as canon as the chargen rules...

But if you gain those two AT's, the PM page 41 limit of 2 AT per year should apply, so that's the only gain for the year. But, yes, it's a broken (but legacy) rule to raise a skill level with as little as 4 weeks intense instruction (4 weeks, 50 hours each). But we see as many as 6 skills per year in CT advanced CGen, so it's only double the maximum rate of CGen.
 
<Mod note: if this isn't okay let me know and I'll parse it>

From LBB2

SELF-IMPROVEMENT
Limited personal development and experience is possible in the sense of increasing abilities and skills. Such potential for increases is possible in four specific areas, only one of which may be attempted at one time: education, weapon expertise, other skills, and physical fitness.

In each field, the character selects a four-year program of self-improvement,
dedicating his or her endeavors in something like obsession, with the general goal of self-improvement. Because individuals do not always have the will to continue with such a program, there is the chance that the program will be planned, but never actually carried out. After the general field has been chosen, the character must make a dedication die roll. Throw 8+; no DMs apply except when throwing to enter a physical fitness program, in which case allow a DM of +2 if intelligence is 8-, +4 if intelligence 5-. Failure to achieve this throw indicates that the self improvement program is not carried out, and a new one may not be attempted for at least one year. Success in the throw indicates that the program is undertaken.

Education: A character with an education characteristic lower than his or her
intelligence characteristic may improve education level through the use of correspondence courses and tutoring. In general such courses (or tutors) have a base price of CR 50 per week. Generally one session per week is taken, though 2 per week are possible. After 50 sessions are completed the character's education level is increased by one. In one four year period, it is possible to increase the education characteristic a maximum of 6 levels.

Education increases gained are permanent.

In addition, any character may, once during his or her life, take a sabbatical (for 4 years) for the purpose of specifically gaining a skill through education. Such activity is the equivalent of a technical school or college education, and allows the acquisition of one specific non-weapon skill with a level of 2. Cost of this education is CR 70,000.

Weapon Expertise: The skill which a character has in weaponry indicates a native trained ability; through dedication (through training and practice) to specific weapons, skill may be honed to better levels on a temporary basis. Highly skilled marksmen achieve their best work when at the peak of their training. One gun and one blade weapon may be chosen; skill level in each is increased by 1 for the duration of the program. If a weapon is chosen in which the character has a skill level of zero, skill level is increased for that weapon to 1, permanently. At the end of this program, skill increases are lost unless the program is extended or continued formally for another four years. After a second four year program, the improved skill level becomes permanent. This permanent level may then itself be temporarily improved by further programs of training. Any weapons may be chosen for this type of program, and one or both weapons may be dropped for new ones in the succeeding program.

For example, Johnson has skills of foil-0 and revolver-3, and chooses to practice in these weapons. After successfully making his throw of 8+ for dedication to purpose, his skill levels for these weapons become foil-1 and revolver-4 for the duration of the program, reverting to foil-1 and revolver-3 at the end of the program.

Johnson successfully makes his dedication throw of 8+ again, and continues in
these two weapons. His skill level becomes foil-2 and revolver-4. At the end of that 4 year program, he elects to abandon this self-improvement for another program, and his weapons skills revert to foil-1 and (because he has spent a second 4 year program on revolver) revolver-4.

When new or exotic weapons become available (especially those not described in Book 1), it is possible to acquire skill in them through this training program.

Skill Improvement: In a fashion similar to that of weapon expertise, a character may temporarily improve his skill in another field by dedicating himself to it for a program of 4 years duration. Only two skills may be chosen, and the individual must already have a level of at least 1 in each skill. Skill level reverts to the original level at the end of the program. If the program is continued for a second four year period, the new skill level becomes permanent at the end of that period.

Physical Fitness: Because many individuals find a regimen of physical conditioning unrewarding intellectually, a dedication throw of 8+ is required (DMs of +2 if intelligence 8-, and 4 if intelligence 5-). If the throw is achieved, the character increases his three physical characteristics (strength, endurance, and dexterity) each by 1. This increase remains in effect for the duration of the physical fitness program. Physical characteristics may never be increased to more than 15.

The pursuit of a program envisions that the required materials will be available
on a regular basis. Weapons training requires the weapons specified; tutoring requires a tutor. If the required materials are not available, the program is suspended temporarily, but the benefits are not lost if the suspension is of less than 3 months duration.
 
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@Tim - it's right at the quote limit... but could you please wrap the quoted text with either [quote="Bk3"][/quote] or [indent][/indent] tags for clarity of what's quoted.
 
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Maybe it might be worthwhile to consider the DM's from having highly advanced skill levels as being "up to" a DM of +X.

Specifically, if someone had MED+5 I might give them the full +5 benefit if they have a well stocked medbay handy or if it is a particularly challenging task they are trying to attempt, but if they are just trying to set a bone fracture in the field with little medical tools, etc then maybe I'd rethink what kind of die roll modifier would be appropriate, as its unclear how a MD+5 character would do anything better than a MED+2 etc.

In the case you tell, the med-2 character will be as much hamperes as the med-5, so I'll give both players the same dificulty modifier, and the med 5 will probably do it better than the med 2 anyway.

While it's true that de med 5 will probably be more hampered by the lack of ressources than the med 2 (who is probably a nurse of paramedic, and less used to support, so less dependent of it), this would be penalizing higher skills, while, IMHO, they should be an advantage.

Another different thing is why a med 5 character (that is enough a good doctor as to be a chieff doctor in a good hospital) is adventureing instead of earning his good credits and prestige at a good hospital or university (probably both), but that's another discussion more akin of why a full admiral is adventuring...

True. I do pretty well with a .45 Colt, but a flintlock smoothbore is a different case entirely. I do shoot blackpowder, so I probably could safely load and fire it, as to hitting something, that is another matter entirely. There is a famous quote to the effect that no man has ever been wounded by a smoothbore musket, provided that the firer aims at him, if the range is over about 150 yards.

Here I'll use the MT rule RM pag 15) about different TLs, and you, being from a pre-stellar TL will have a -2 to your skill for using preindustrial equipment (2 thech categories below).

See that, with this rule, a character with handgun (TL 13) 5 skill firing the same flintstock pistol will use it at skill level 1, as he would have a -4 due to tech categories difference, and the same character from TL 15 will also use it at skill level 1 (even while modifier will be -5) due to the minimal skill level.
 
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