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Classic Traveller vs Traveller T20?

Levels aren't a measure of your age. They are a measure of your experience in profession xyz. If you have a great degree of experience in a profession that uses guns, for example, you will get much better with combat (Base Attack Bonus goes up, in other words).

This ought to be pretty self explanatory, I'm suprised to see a T20 forum with this many misimpressions. :(
 
Many don't want to learn a new set of mechanics. If appealing to mechanical similarities gets players where setting doesn't, then that's what you do.
the implication is that in (X)20 the mechanics carry greater weight than the storyline. in the CT approach (broadly seen) mechanics are background to the story, while in the (X)20 approach story is background to mechanics. nice background to be sure, but background nonetheless.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Many don't want to learn a new set of mechanics. If appealing to mechanical similarities gets players where setting doesn't, then that's what you do.
the implication is that in (X)20 the mechanics carry greater weight than the storyline. in the CT approach (broadly seen) mechanics are background to the story, while in the (X)20 approach story is background to mechanics. nice background to be sure, but background nonetheless. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think there's any such implication at all. How much story there is in a session of a game is entirely down to the GM and players, regardless of the system. How "transparent" the system also depends in part on the skill of the GM in making it 'transparent' so that he or the players can described what they are doing, roll dice, and then describe the results in terms of what is happening. It's the difference between saying "your laser scorched the bulkhead but it's still solid" and "you did 10 hp of damage to the bulkhead".

There is no difference between CT and T20 in this regard, at all. It sounds like you're arguing that in T20 the emphasis is on getting XP and going up in levels and in CT it isn't, but I don't think that is accurate at all.

And the reason why T20 will be more likely to attract players and CT won't be is that T20 is based on the d20 system, which is vastly more popular and thus more well known, and so people are less likely to have to do a lot to learn how T20 works. It's nothing to do with how "roleplaying-oriented" either game is.
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:
Well, Malenfant, that is my point - drop the BAB. I know it breaks the D20 paradigm, but how old I am has no direct bearing on my ability to survive combat (well, except for stat deterioration).
As RickA pointed out, age is not quite so directly related to level. A 10th level Scout could be someone who spent five terms spending XP to go up in the Scout class. Or he could be someone in his 8th term (thus is older) but who spent some of his xp in other classes too. They both have the same amount of experience, but one guy is 12 years older.

BAB is a weird quantity, and I don't know really what it's supposed to describe. It's some nebulous 'experience factor' that comes with increased level. Problem is, it's nonsensical in most cases - I can state for a fact that I know no experienced (10th level) scientists today who are someone magically better at fighting than a (2nd level) PhD student. Yet the way the BAB goes would imply that this happens.

That's why I think it's more sensible to drop BAB and just tie weapons to skills.
 
Originally posted by GypsyComet:
In the case of T20, it is to keep the vehicle "skills" organized the same way they were in earlier editions *without* requiring skill rank purchase in eight or nine skills.
Well, weapon use has been replaced by 8 or 9 feats now. So I don't see what the gain is there.

As for vehicles, you now have six subtype of "Vessel" which could just as well be skills.

Feats are also fairly common in T20, so anyone wanting to be able to drive something specific shouldn't have a hard time coming up with the spare feat to spend on it. By comparison, you'll find yourself scraping for skill points.
That implies to me that there needs to be a redistribution of points between feats and skills in T20 - classes should have more skill points available to them, and possibly less frequent bonus feats.
 
Quote: "(But, yeah, I thought it was dumb to have to, say, get Body Pistol and Auto Pistol separately....)"

Which is why the Book 4 rules on gun combat selection were so great. Get pistol skill and it covers all the pistols.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GypsyComet:
In the case of T20, it is to keep the vehicle "skills" organized the same way they were in earlier editions *without* requiring skill rank purchase in eight or nine skills.
Well, weapon use has been replaced by 8 or 9 feats now. So I don't see what the gain is there.

As for vehicles, you now have six subtype of "Vessel" which could just as well be skills.
</font>[/QUOTE]Six vehicle skills that you would need to revisit at most every level, instead of two? No thanks.

Similarly, weapon proficiency feats are a one-shot acquisition. You don't need to keep revisiting them. If you want to be better at them, raise the appropriate stat, take the Weapon Focus feat for that weapon, or level up in a class that has a good BAB progression. Note that, as with CT, the proficiencies aren't completely boolean. They offset the -4 "I don't know what this thing does" penalty. It is quite possible to carry a gun and not be particularly comfortable with it, or pick up an unfamiliar firearm and not be prepared for the recoil (or lack of recoil).

T20 BAB is a strange beasty, but it can be treated as "confidence in violent situations" (also called "Coolness Under Fire" in some circles) as much as anything. The effect of the various parts of T20 is to make combat situations shake out about like they do in real life. Any hit is dangerous, armor is your friend (but only so far), gunfire causes those who understand it to scatter for cover like roaches from light, and professionals can be dangerous (ie. have plusses to hit) regardless of the weapon they pick up.

...

In the end, both CT and T20 provide the mechanical basis to play the game.
 
In the end, both CT and T20 provide the mechanical basis to play the game.
yes they do. while I prefer the clarity of CT there is also much to be said for growing a character and watching him develop.
 
MichaelT,
Yes, that is true. And, here I had just gone through listing ALL the skills from CT just so I would know things like that
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Malenfant/flykiller,
I used age because it was the only way I could think of to say what Malenfant said so well: BAB is just a wierd quantity that is nonsensical when it comes to something that IRL is skill-based. :rolleyes:

GypsyComet,
Well, I think you actually made the case for a weapons or vehicle skill. It's not a matter of "you have it or you don't" with weapons (or vehicles). There are incremental differences in skill between different folks that doesn't get reflected well (IMO) with level-based combat.

I actually don't mind some "classes" getting a small modifier based on level - in addition to their skill. Obviously, folks who specialize in fighting are going to get more out of their skill than Sally the Scientist. It just shouldn't be the PRIMARY basis for the game mechanics.

Quick Edit: And, CT covered the idea of a professional being able to cope with numerous types of weapons: all characters were assumed to have Gun Cbt of 0 and Vehicle 0 (in everything). Obviously, a referee could modify this for a character, but it was there for playability.
 
Six vehicle skills that you would need to revisit at most every level, instead of two? No thanks.
no Gypsy two skills and 6 feats. Pilot/driver
small craft, large crafte wheelled vechile, etci.
So if you fighter pilot with skill 6 and you take a weekend course on small space craft your skill is now 6 and you know how to fly the space shuttle etc.
I think the best way to describe is everyone are assumed to vechile -4 without training


yes some the choices in feat do not make sense but the dm can change it.
 
Six vehicle skills that you would need to revisit at most every level, instead of two? No thanks.

Similarly, weapon proficiency feats are a one-shot acquisition. You don't need to keep revisiting them. If you want to be better at them, raise the appropriate stat, take the Weapon Focus feat for that weapon, or level up in a class that has a good BAB progression.
Well, you may as well argue that all skills are unecessary and should be replaced with feats
. You're going to be "revisiting" all skills anyway.

My experience with d20 is entirely through D&D3.5e. My character - a fighter - was increasing things like Hide and Listen and Spot every level (and he got barely any skill points at that, and most of those are crossclass skills so he needed to pay double for them). I wouldn't have complained if he had to do that with a Bastard Sword skill too - as it is, he had to burn up a total of three feats over his 13 levels on Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialisation to be reasonably good at it. But to do that, characters would need to get a heck of a lot more skill points and ditch the BAB. Now, as it is, the BAB increased with each level, but the only way to actually get markedly better in the general use of a Bastard Sword over any other weapon type was to take the feats - there was no skill-like way to increase the BAB.

In a BAB-less d20 system, I'd envisage that the weapon skills would directly replace the BAB. Maybe you could have class-based tweaks (like, martial types would automatically have level 1 in every weapon and armour skill, so they at least knew how to use everything even if they didn't know it too well). And there would be a lot more skill points to throw around to start with and per level too. Feats would just be reserved for manoeuvres like Far Shot, Cleave, Critical Strikes, Quickdraw, Speedy Armour Removal, etc and not for just knowing how to use the weapons and armour.

As for vehicles in T20, that would be similar. Ditch the feats, and just use skills. Use feats for things like "Stunt Driving" or "High-G Manoeuvering", and let the skill level reflect how well the character knows how to fly or drive the vehicle. Heck, while we're at it, make it more specialised and realistic anyway - someone who only knows how to fly a propellor-driven crop-duster does not necessarily have any skill in flying a helicopter or a hot air balloon or a state-of-the-art jet fighter or stealth bomber well.

As it is, we've GOT Driving and Pilot skills in the game. We already have the ability to distinguish between a good pilot and a bad one - so what the heck is the feat doing there anyway? It's completely redundant, and means that feat slots are taken unecessarily by things that are already covered by skills.
 
Hey, Malenfant, you want to play a game?! You and I agree on this much. I want you to randomly roll one item per term, though.... :D
 
Having been Trolled enough (and in a T20 forum, no less), I'll retire with this parting statement...

T20 is not D&D. As nothing I can say today will convince some of you of that, I can only appeal to the doubters that they actually try *playing* the game. T20 is the sum of its parts, and Traveller has too many "armchair experts" already...
 
Originally posted by GypsyComet:
Having been Trolled enough (and in a T20 forum, no less), I'll retire with this parting statement...

T20 is not D&D. As nothing I can say today will convince some of you of that, I can only appeal to the doubters that they actually try *playing* the game. T20 is the sum of its parts, and Traveller has too many "armchair experts" already...
Disagreeing with someone is "trolling" now, is it? :rolleyes: .

I'm not saying T20 doesn't work, and never have. I understand why things were done the way they were. I'm just saying that some parts could be done differently (and be better for it, IMO).
 
Gyspy not trolling just some people would have done it differently and what hobby does not have it armchair experts.
I basically played no traveller ber t20 and recognize some parts of game could have been done differently or at least written, edited, etc to make it clearer for newbies.
 
I've never understood what "trolling" is.

Perhaps someone could explain it to me? ;)

All I've seen on these posts is a lot of discussion - using civilised language - about elements of the game which could be improved upon, most of which is subjective to the individual.

Such discussions are good for the game IMHO.

Oh, and how many CT characters had all of the available vehicle skills anyway?
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Which, by the way, consist of Air/raft, ATV, ground car, water-craft, winged craft, hovercraft, and grav belt ;)
 
We're discussing feats over on the Traveller Guidebook board, BTW, if anyone's interested. Hunter's actually showed up there to explain a few things.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I've never understood what "trolling" is.

Perhaps someone could explain it to me? ;)
Well let's see, "trolling" is...
file_21.gif
;)

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Oh, and how many CT characters had all of the available vehicle skills anyway?
file_23.gif


Which, by the way, consist of Air/raft, ATV, ground car, water-craft, winged craft, hovercraft, and grav belt ;)
What edition? ;) 2nd ed lumps Air/Raft and grav-belt in "Grav Vehicle" which also covers G-carrier and Speeder. The others cascade so the set is: Aircraft (cascade), Watercraft (cascade), Wheeled Vehicle, Tracked Vehicle, and Grav Vehicle. Or are you referring to the tables with ATV and Air/Raft skill specifically stated? I think we just ignored that and treated them as Vehicle cascade choices.

I vaguely recall a character with most of the vehicle skills. Had Watercraft (small), Aircraft (jet), Wheeled Vehicle, and Grav Vehicle. I think he was an Army grunt, so of course his MOS would have been Cook ;) And of course the rest of our group wanted a Tracked ATV for the vehicle in the Yacht's hanger :rolleyes:
 
Which, by the way, consist of Air/raft, ATV, ground car, water-craft, winged craft, hovercraft, and grav belt
I am an ex army grunt and can only drive a car and at one time a IFV so that would be ground car-1 and tracked ATV-1 if im lucky.. probably closer to -0 skill to be honest.
 
Dan asked:
What edition? ;)
<snip>
1st edition LBB1 has
Air/raft
ATV
2nd edition LBB1 has
Air/raft
ATV
Vehicle (cascade - ground car, water-caft, winged craft, hovercraft, and grav belt.
LBB4 introduces:
vehicle (cascade - wheeled, tracked, grav)
LBB5 gives:
vehicle (cascade - wheeled, tracked, grav, prop. driven fixed wing, jet prop. fixed wing, helicopter, hovercraft, small water craft, lighter than air craft, and ship's boat)
LBB6 removes ship's boat and lighter than air craft from the cascade and adds submersible and large water craft.
LBB7 adds ship's boat and lighter than air craft again and keeps submersible and large water craft. Vacc suit is also added to the vehicle cascade.
 
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