Corsair ships

[wbyrd]

historically a lot of ship to ship combats were drawn out affairs. With the exception of lucky hits, or one ship being seriously outgunned the typical results was one captain breaking off before he took crippling damage.

Paul Jones engaged the Sloop Drake, aboard his sloop the ranger, the battle lased an hour and a half by Captain Jones testimony.

a portion of the record of the "Bonhomme Richard" vs the Serapis
John
"In less than an hour afterward the flag of England, which had been nailed to the mast of the Serapis, was struck by Captain Pearson's own hands, "

in this case two well armed frigates with state of the art weapons ( for the day) slugging it out at point blank range took nearly an hour.

The ironclads Monitor and Virginia fought for the better part of a day only doing minor damage to one another.
durig the battle of samar

At 07:35, Roberts turned and headed toward the battle. She charged toward the heavy cruiser Chōkai.


At 08:51, the Japanese landed two hits, the second of which damaged the aft 5 inch gun.

in this battle destroyers and destroyer escorts engaged the main japanese battle fleet including a super battleship...and the battle took over an hour to resolve.


in game using Mongoose rules the several ship to ship battles were fairly quickly resolved. In the three engagements I can remember off the top of my head... the vessels. corsairs, then a second corsair, and a close escort broke off when they started taking structure hits...and most of the damage was delivered by the missiles based on The groups vessel... a fat trader converted to a pirate hunter.

 

[McPerth]

in game using Mongoose rules the several ship to ship battles were fairly quickly resolved. In the three engagements I can remember off the top of my head... the vessels. corsairs, then a second corsair, and a close escort broke off when they started taking structure hits...and most of the damage was delivered by the missiles based on The groups vessel... a fat trader converted to a pirate hunter.

MgT Corsair is (IMHO) poorly desined for its mission, as it involves combat more often than not and yet is fully unarmored, while even a free/far trader has some armor (enough, in fact, to neutralize 2/3 of non-nuclear missiles or beam lasers).

In MgT core rules, the only turret weapon really usable against armored hulls is the PB, and having no power needs, I'm quite amazed it's not more used (should I have a Gazelle, the first thing I'd done would be to upgun it to CT/MT standards, with PBs and triple lasers).

 

[wbyrd]

Corsairs aren't that poorly designed. A corsair is mainly intends to attack commercial shipping. they are not intended to fight warships. They are intended to RUN from warships.

they are better armed than the traders they stalk and fast enough to make a quick exit. They need to be modified from the stock version in the books (since they have empty weapons slots.) but just by filling those slots with a pulse laser and sand caster

total
3 beam lasers (long range sniping, missile/fighter defense)
3 Pulse lasers (close range combat/small craft defense)
3 sand casters (defensive system)

the are better armed than most traders,fast enough to get in and out, and just rugged enough to survive a low intensity fight against non warships.... which is what a Corsair or raider is meant for.

 

[McPerth]

Corsairs aren't that poorly designed. A corsair is mainly intends to attack commercial shipping. they are not intended to fight warships. They are intended to RUN from warships.

they are better armed than the traders they stalk and fast enough to make a quick exit. They need to be modified from the stock version in the books (since they have empty weapons slots.) but just by filling those slots with a pulse laser and sand caster

total
3 beam lasers (long range sniping, missile/fighter defense)
3 Pulse lasers (close range combat/small craft defense)
3 sand casters (defensive system)

the are better armed than most traders,fast enough to get in and out, and just rugged enough to survive a low intensity fight against non warships.... which is what a Corsair or raider is meant for.

And which warship are they supposed to outrun? The Gazelle has thrust 4, so the corsair may not outrun it. And with its armor 8 the corsair is unlikely to damage it.

Also, the design wastes one hardpoint capacity (being 400 dtons, it could have 4 turrets instead of 3).

Another example of bad design (or more likely an errata) is that it has computer 2 (rating 10) and has Auto-repair/2 for its repair drones, that needs a rating 20 computer to run (so overloading the computer and being useless). That adds 5 Mcr to the cost over an Auto-repair/1 ad makes the repair drones useless, as the software can not be run by the computer.

And about merchants, free/far traders have armor 4. As long as they have sandcasters, the probability to damage them is low with the weapons given. And even without them, the weaponry you talk about is unlikely to damage them. Unless nukes are used (and if you play 3I they are supposed to be difficult to obtain, due to Imperila Rules of War), only pulse lasers (if using the rules changes in HG) will damage them more often than not, but they are inaccurate.

If nukes are used, a single missile hitting the corsair (being it unarmored) might be quite damaging to the crew (due to being unarmored), while the free trader is more likely to survive it unschratched (with armor 4, only a 9+ will damage one crewmemeber, and never more tan one).

Fat traders, being unarmored, are more vulnerable to them, but the corsair is no better armed that they can be, both having 3 turrets and no armor (the fat trader also wastes one hardpoint capacity). Off course the corsair can this time outrun the trader and flee, but if you ely on this against merchants, that says no good about the design...

 

[Dagrill]

MgT Corsair is (IMHO) poorly desined for its mission, as it involves combat more often than not and yet is fully unarmored, while even a free/far trader has some armor (enough, in fact, to neutralize 2/3 of non-nuclear missiles or beam lasers).

In MgT core rules, the only turret weapon really usable against armored hulls is the PB, and having no power needs, I'm quite amazed it's not more used (should I have a Gazelle, the first thing I'd done would be to upgun it to CT/MT standards, with PBs and triple lasers).

I find most Corsair type ships don't really work with rules, the Buccaneer in Book 6 Scoundrel relies on reaction drive & 60 tons of Fuel to give it Thrust 6 for brief periods and is seriously under-gunned. I suspect Particle Beams are Military grade and only used by military ships though & any civilian with them is assumed to be a Pirate, which I guess is the norm in the Trojan Reach.

Regards

David

 

[McPerth]

And which warship are they supposed to outrun? The Gazelle has thrust 4, so the corsair may not outrun it. And with its armor 8 the corsair is unlikely to damage it.

Also, the design wastes one hardpoint capacity (being 400 dtons, it could have 4 turrets instead of 3).

Another example of bad design (or more likely an errata) is that it has computer 2 (rating 10) and has Auto-repair/2 for its repair drones, that needs a rating 20 computer to run (so overloading the computer and being useless). That adds 5 Mcr to the cost over an Auto-repair/1 ad makes the repair drones useless, as the software can not be run by the computer.

And about merchants, free/far traders have armor 4. As long as they have sandcasters, the probability to damage them is low with the weapons given. And even without them, the weaponry you talk about is unlikely to damage them. Unless nukes are used (and if you play 3I they are supposed to be difficult to obtain, due to Imperila Rules of War), only pulse lasers (if using the rules changes in HG) will damage them more often than not, but they are inaccurate.

If nukes are used, a single missile hitting the corsair (being it unarmored) might be quite damaging to the crew (due to being unarmored), while the free trader is more likely to survive it unschratched (with armor 4, only a 9+ will damage one crewmemeber, and never more tan one).

Fat traders, being unarmored, are more vulnerable to them, but the corsair is no better armed that they can be, both having 3 turrets and no armor (the fat trader also wastes one hardpoint capacity). Off course the corsair can this time outrun the trader and flee, but if you ely on this against merchants, that says no good about the design...

to prevent a serious case of thread drift I am going to have to reply to this somewhere else... Curses on staying on topic..a thousand curses upon it.

[m;]Previous posts are copied form the thread Ship combat: long and bloody? to avoid such thread derive[/m;]

Don't so curse the rules, just start a new thread if you think it deserves it

 

[Dagrill]

And which warship are they supposed to outrun? The Gazelle has thrust 4, so the corsair may not outrun it. And with its armor 8 the corsair is unlikely to damage it.

Also, the design wastes one hardpoint capacity (being 400 dtons, it could have 4 turrets instead of 3).

Fat traders, being unarmored, are more vulnerable to them, but the corsair is no better armed that they can be, both having 3 turrets and no armor (the fat trader also wastes one hardpoint capacity). Off course the corsair can this time outrun the trader and flee, but if you ely on this against merchants, that says no good about the design...

I meant to add that another way is to see the Core Rulebook Corsair as the factory fresh article and you need to spend additional money to improve the ship. I've been unable to design (at 400 tons) a decent Corsair that combines
Speed, Firepower, Protection & a decent amount of Cargo space, leading to a situation where you need at least 2 ships (or one bigger one).

It does tend to focus the prey as Fat Traders & Free Traders as even the heavy freighter could potentially mount more weapons.

Regards

David

 

[wbyrd]

A Corsair is not a combat ship it is an opportunistic ambush vessel. So it stands to reason that it is not armed or armored to a point where it can get into slugging matches with equally armed or heavily armored vessels.

If a pirate group can afford to operate a larger vessel, or a pair of vessels then up-gunning the corsair. and having a second cargo vessel follow up to take on cargo is a good answer.

However for solo ships, and cant afford a larger vessel the corsair is acceptable. Pirates on corsairs have to pick their targets, and avoid engaging anything that can/want to put up a fight

If operating alone they have to balance combat ability and tactics against the ability to make off with the cargo they just hijacked. this means they are not going to be able to convert their vessel into a purely combat oriented ship.

extra turrets, armor and a heavy weapon are reasonable upgrades but the ship is never going to be a match for a purely combat oriented vessel. that's not what it's meant to do.

 

[McPerth]

A Corsair is not a combat ship it is an opportunistic ambush vessel. So it stands to reason that it is not armed or armored to a point where it can get into slugging matches with equally armed or heavily armored vessels.

If a pirate group can afford to operate a larger vessel, or a pair of vessels then up-gunning the corsair. and having a second cargo vessel follow up to take on cargo is a good answer.

However for solo ships, and cant afford a larger vessel the corsair is acceptable. Pirates on corsairs have to pick their targets, and avoid engaging anything that can/want to put up a fight

If operating alone they have to balance combat ability and tactics against the ability to make off with the cargo they just hijacked. this means they are not going to be able to convert their vessel into a purely combat oriented ship.

extra turrets, armor and a heavy weapon are reasonable upgrades but the ship is never going to be a match for a purely combat oriented vessel. that's not what it's meant to do.

I understand it's not thought to confront true combat ships, but, as it is, it cannot even confront a fat trader in anything like equal terms, and hardly can with a free/fat trader, due to the latter being armored, nor can it outrun military ships (a must for this kind of missions)

 

[aramis]

I understand it's not thought to confront true combat ships, but, as it is, it cannot even confront a fat trader in anything like equal terms, and hardly can with a free/fat trader, due to the latter being armored, nor can it outrun military ships (a must for this kind of missions)

Standard Fat Trader has 2 turrets.
The Corsair has 3 turrets and more thrust.

This means it gets to set the range, and it also has 50% more firepower than a Fat Trader, of the same size.

It's not a good design - it should have a 4th turret, and maybe a bit of armor - but it's definitely an uphill fight for any of the stock merchants to fend it off.

 

[McPerth]

Standard Fat Trader has 2 turrets.
The Corsair has 3 turrets and more thrust.

This means it gets to set the range, and it also has 50% more firepower than a Fat Trader, of the same size.

It's not a good design - it should have a 4th turret, and maybe a bit of armor - but it's definitely an uphill fight for any of the stock merchants to fend it off.

In MgT CB the fat trader is listed as having 3 hardpoints (though empty at buying it)

 

[rancke]

In MgT CB the fat trader is listed as having 3 hardpoints (though empty at buying it)

And a trader that intends to go to places where pirates are a threat would probably make sure it had all the weapons it could have. Is there a cost to designating (but not using) a hardpoint? Because otherwise it seems to make little sense not to design all the hardpoints you can.

Be that as it may, a fight between a trader with three turrets and a pirate with four turrets is hardly the profoundly unfair fight a pragmatic pirate would prefer.


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

I understand it's not thought to confront true combat ships, but, as it is, it cannot even confront a fat trader in anything like equal terms, and hardly can with a free/fat trader, due to the latter being armored, nor can it outrun military ships (a must for this kind of missions)

Free/FAR (not FAT) traders have two hardpoints. The subsidized merchant (FAT trader) comes with three but could mount four.

Just as the 400 ton corsair could mount 4.

In the subbie's case only going with three is probably being penny-wise. In the corsair's case, WHAT WAS THE DESIGNER THINKING, only putting 3 turrets on this thing?

And a one turret difference (4-3) if I hold the wind (i.e. I have the greater thrust) I can make work, but I wouldn't like it. Preferred targets would be the of the free/far trader type. Twice as many turrets and the wind will go much easier.

 

[Kilgs]

Man, I love the MGT Corsair ship... it even has a single launch point for a fighter! But I agree that the goal is rapid in/out. The ships and cargo have insurance so no Free Trader is going to risk his "house" for someone else's stuff.

Show up with enough firepower to make good a threat and collect your goods!

 

[wbyrd]

I understand it's not thought to confront true combat ships, but, as it is, it cannot even confront a fat trader in anything like equal terms, and hardly can with a free/fat trader, due to the latter being armored, nor can it outrun military ships (a must for this kind of missions)

I understand your points. But the Corsair is not a BAD design, it's not a great design. But it is capable of carrying out it's intended mission. Fat traders, Yachts, Heavy Freighters, are all vulnerable to the Corsair. that's over half the commercial vessels in the core book.
also the book examples are all left open for improvement and upgrades. I cant speak for the original designers but the vessels are meant to be upgraded after purchase by players, or tweaked by Referees as needed.

While, Out of the book Far traders and Free traders are well enough armored to absorb the Corsair fire without significant damage. however they are not fat enough to exploit that advantage to escape.
The corsair can close and force a boarding action. on free and far traders. the target ship does not have to be at a dead stop to be boarded it just makes the task a bit trickier.

And one final option is that a Corsair can carry six 10 ton fighters in it's cargo hold and still have 100 tons of cargo space

 

[rancke]

I understand your points. But the Corsair is not a BAD design, it's not a great design. But it is capable of carrying out it's intended mission. Fat traders, Yachts, Heavy Freighters, are all vulnerable to the Corsair. that's over half the commercial vessels in the core book.

But how big a percentage of the ships that would frequent the places where it has freedom to attack them is it?

Also the book examples are all left open for improvement and upgrades. I cant speak for the original designers but the vessels are meant to be upgraded after purchase by players, or tweaked by Referees as needed.

Meant to be tweaked by PCs is a reasonable argument. But tweaked by referees is just another way to say that design flaws don't matter because a good referee can backstop bad rules (or, in this case, designs). But the ability of good referees to amend flaws does not obviate them nor excuse them. For one thing, rules and setting details are for bad referees too. Indeed, they are more for bad (and indifferent) referees than for the good ones who can tweak things as needed on their own.

While, Out of the book Far traders and Free traders are well enough armored to absorb the Corsair fire without significant damage. however they are not fat enough to exploit that advantage to escape.

But it gives them a chance to fight off the corsair while inflicting millions of credits worth of damage. Piracy is a business. And if the damage inflicted on the pirate exceeds the profit from the capture of the prey, it's a losing business.

The corsair can close and force a boarding action. on free and far traders. the target ship does not have to be at a dead stop to be boarded it just makes the task a bit trickier.

I don't know what the MgT ship combat rules has to say about boarding actions. IIRC, previous Traveller versions require the ship being boarded to have lost all maneuvering acpability.

And one final option is that a Corsair can carry six 10 ton fighters in it's cargo hold and still have 100 tons of cargo space

What's the cost of a fighter and how many can he expect to lose in an action? Can he expect to be able to carry away the prize or will he have to be content with 100T of cargo?


Hans

 

[McPerth]

And a trader that intends to go to places where pirates are a threat would probably make sure it had all the weapons it could have. Is there a cost to designating (but not using) a hardpoint? Because otherwise it seems to make little sense not to design all the hardpoints you can.

Be that as it may, a fight between a trader with three turrets and a pirate with four turrets is hardly the profoundly unfair fight a pragmatic pirate would prefer.

AFAIK there's no cost to design a hardpoint, so neither I understand why are they designed with less hardpoints than they could (and this happens in other ships too, as the Heavy Freighter (1000 dtons, 2 hardpoints listed) or the Yacht or Lab ships (with no hardpoints listed in design).

I don't know if hardpoints nay be added latter, but I guess they can, or all the yachts will go unarmed...

Free/FAR (not FAT) traders have two hardpoints. The subsidized merchant (FAT trader) comes with three but could mount four.

Just as the 400 ton corsair could mount 4.

In the subbie's case only going with three is probably being penny-wise. In the corsair's case, WHAT WAS THE DESIGNER THINKING, only putting 3 turrets on this thing?

And a one turret difference (4-3) if I hold the wind (i.e. I have the greater thrust) I can make work, but I wouldn't like it. Preferred targets would be the of the free/far trader type. Twice as many turrets and the wind will go much easier.

But the free/far traders are armored, so nullifying your beam lasers and non-nuke missiles more often than not, while the Corsair itself will sustain damage in any hit...

And don't foreget a Corsair will probably have more problems with repairs htan legitimate traders...

Man, I love the MGT Corsair ship... it even has a single launch point for a fighter! But I agree that the goal is rapid in/out. The ships and cargo have insurance so no Free Trader is going to risk his "house" for someone else's stuff.

Show up with enough firepower to make good a threat and collect your goods!

Unless the goods are owned by the same ship captain/owner/crew (speculative goods), so risking more than "semone else's stuff".

I understand your points. But the Corsair is not a BAD design, it's not a great design. But it is capable of carrying out it's intended mission. Fat traders, Yachts, Heavy Freighters, are all vulnerable to the Corsair. that's over half the commercial vessels in the core book.
also the book examples are all left open for improvement and upgrades. I cant speak for the original designers but the vessels are meant to be upgraded after purchase by players, or tweaked by Referees as needed.

But that improving can work both ways, and the trader ships are likely to be upgunned if they know there are pirates in the zone.

It's not clear in the rules if hardpoints may be added.

While, Out of the book Far traders and Free traders are well enough armored to absorb the Corsair fire without significant damage. however they are not fat enough to exploit that advantage to escape.
The corsair can close and force a boarding action. on free and far traders. the target ship does not have to be at a dead stop to be boarded it just makes the task a bit trickier.

Sure they can. It has 10 staterooms, so with double occupation for all the crew it could cary up to 12 "marines" (see that the crew listed in page 129 includes no gunners, I included 3 for the 3 turrets, sso raising the crew to 8). As I asume at least the Pilot and one other officer will have individual staterooms, let's asume 10 boarders.

Nonetheless, that will make it quite vulnerable to Q-ships, even in only being merchants with marines inside...

All in all, it holds not enough firepower (aain IMHO) to really cow a merchant to submission without fight (that would be its intended mission).

And one final option is that a Corsair can carry six 10 ton fighters in it's cargo hold and still have 100 tons of cargo space

Sure, but the added 108 Mcr cost (at the cost of the CB page 136 fighter) this will represent will also allow you a better ship...

My suggested upgradings would be:

1. Adding a fourth turret (IMHO a must)
2. Adding some armor (at least as much as a far/fat trader)
3. At least one turret should be PB. Asside from being quite damaging to enemy ship, the added crew radiation damage could be handy, either to cow them or to reduce the crew for a boarding
4. Upgrade de computer so that it can either have better fire control, evasion or use the repair drones at its full
5. Add scoops and purification plant to allow it wilderness refuelling (remember a Corsair might not depend on starports, where it can be wanted)
6. Add some more accomodiations for boarders.

See that some of them cannot be added (armor and scops, not sure about hardpoints) so, I keep opining it's a bad design for its intended mission.

 

[wbyrd]

But how big a percentage of the ships that would frequent the places where it has freedom to attack them is it?

fat traders, and heavy freighters are ships that would service colonies and smaller planets. larger vessels would be running the well defended routes between major worlds.
The descriptions of both indicate they are most common serving smaller colonies and worlds.

Meant to be tweaked by PCs is a reasonable argument. But tweaked by referees is just another way to say that design flaws don't matter because a good referee can backstop bad rules (or, in this case, designs). But the ability of good referees to amend flaws does not obviate them nor excuse them. For one thing, rules and setting details are for bad referees too. Indeed, they are more for bad (and indifferent) referees than for the good ones who can tweak things as needed on their own.

Out of the book vessels are base examples, not "as good as it gets" also the stats in the book are set at starting levels since it is likely that a PC might start game play with access to a Corsair.
the off the shelf stats from the book should be a starting point not the Best possible configuration.

The Book Stat blocks are base versions,the Referee can upgrade to the ship to be more dangerous as the PCs ships improve.
the odds of a bad referee showing up to read this thread are pretty slim..so I am going to assume anyone here knows what they are doing However,If it's the case of a bad referee who needs everything statted out because he doesn't want to bother, ....no design can make up for a bad referee.

But it gives them a chance to fight off the corsair while inflicting millions of credits worth of damage. Piracy is a business. And if the damage inflicted on the pirate exceeds the profit from the capture of the prey, it's a losing business.

Out of the book examples of far and fat traders are unarmed.... so if you are making an apples to apples comparison of out of the book designs they are defenseless, and can be boarded without taking damage.

If you make an apples to apples upgraded vessel comparison, the it's likely the crew of the corsair will have added armor and heavier weapons. in which case the Far/Free traders are still slower, and have only two hard points. the Corsair an carry as much or more armor than a free/far Trader and more weapons...and still have room for loot.

Apples to oranges comparisons never give an accurate picture of the strengths and weaknesses of a design. You have to ake either a baseline comparasion or a tweaked version comparison. Not base line vs tweaked.

I don't know what the MgT ship combat rules has to say about boarding actions. IIRC, previous Traveller versions require the ship being boarded to have lost all maneuvering acpability.

Mgt Allows for boarding a maneuvering vessel with increased difficulty. they do not have to be dead in space. a Thrust 3 ships should be able to match any maneuver a lower thrust vessel can make

What's the cost of a fighter and how many can he expect to lose in an action? Can he expect to be able to carry away the prize or will he have to be content with 100T of cargo?

Considering that fighters have thrust to execute evasive maneuvers, and can fire a collective six weapons a round .... the commercial vessel will be busy swatting missiles not firing offensively. that number of targets added to the turrets of the Corsair the odds of a shot being fired by anyone other than a PC vessel are slim to none...and PCs would be better advised to get creative and avoid a seven on one gunfight.

 

[McPerth]

If you make an apples to apples upgraded vessel comparison, the it's likely the crew of the corsair will have added armor and heavier weapons. in which case the Far/Free traders are still slower, and have only two hard points.

I'm not sure armor can be added latter. Upguning it is a must for a Corsair.

 

[rancke]

Out of the book examples of far and fat traders are unarmed.... so if you are making an apples to apples comparison of out of the book designs they are defenseless, and can be boarded without taking damage.

If you make an apples to apples upgraded vessel comparison, the it's likely the crew of the corsair will have added armor and heavier weapons. in which case the Far/Free traders are still slower, and have only two hard points.

You're assuming that defenseless ships would be going to worlds without system defenses. I'm assuming that defenseless ships will keep to systems with defenses or upgrade their own defenses. I'm also assuming that only a fool would use a ship that couldn't be fitted with all the turrets possible for going into harm's way.


Hans