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Corsair--What were they thinking?

Or do you just think they take out a bank loan and fly to the nearest shipyard with check in hand? ;)

If the pirate/privateer business offers a sufficiently large rate of return compared to the risks involved, financing will be available. Pirates just need to provide bigger rates of return to compensate for the added risks of getting into trouble with the law.

The big problem IMO is that I think the risks involved would be prohibitive. The existence of a ship type dedicated to corsair work argues that the risk isn't too big, but I think it would be. Especially if you add the risk of a Vargr crew deciding to fly off with the ship you financed.


Hans
 
Actually, it seems to me that the best use for a corsair is to extort merchant ships into handing over their small craft.

Corsair flies into intercept range and the captain says "Listen here, Trader captain, drop off your launch or ship's boat and then get out of here. You could fight us, and maybe even win if you're lucky, but the immense expense of the battle damage will beggar you."

After the trader moves off, the corsair flies up close, sends a few guys in vacc suits over to the ship's boat to make sure it isn't filled with marines or a bomb, and then open up the clam shell.

The hold can really only fit a scout/courier or X-boat among jump-capable ships. It seems tailor made for small craft.

You'd even create your own market. The more pirates seize small craft, the more ships need replacement small craft. It's even better if "Lloyd's of Outer Space" covers small craft lost to pirates.
 
I still maintain that the reason you have a pirate career, with mustering out benefits, purpose designed ships, and a pension is that they are really mislabeled naval mercenaries.

The megacorporations use them during trade wars, rival nobles use them to raid their enemies shipping lanes, planetary governments use them much the same as rival nobles.
 
Actually, it seems to me that the best use for a corsair is to extort merchant ships into handing over their small craft.


Walt Smith looked at the numbers several yeas ago and came to the same conclusion you did. One ship's boat, even sold at a steep discount, would pay a corsair's bills for a year.

Interesting, no?
 
If the pirate/privateer business offers a sufficiently large rate of return compared to the risks involved, financing will be available. Pirates just need to provide bigger rates of return to compensate for the added risks of getting into trouble with the law.

The big problem IMO is that I think the risks involved would be prohibitive. The existence of a ship type dedicated to corsair work argues that the risk isn't too big, but I think it would be. Especially if you add the risk of a Vargr crew deciding to fly off with the ship you financed.


Hans

It doesn't have to actually be a dedicated ship type, I don't think. As long as there is a good legitimate reason to use that ship type for some other work (that it would have been designed for) it could just have been noticed as making a good pirate ship, and then been nicknamed the corsair. But I'm not sure what you would actually design a ship like that for...
 
Actually, it seems to me that the best use for a corsair is to extort merchant ships into handing over their small craft.
Yes, ship's boats are definitely loot that can keep a corsair operation in the black. There's just one little problem with that...

Corsair flies into intercept range and the captain says "Listen here, Trader captain, drop off your launch or ship's boat and then get out of here. You could fight us, and maybe even win if you're lucky, but the immense expense of the battle damage will beggar you."
As would the replacement cost of a launch or a ship's boat. A captain is much more likely to fight to defend a MCr15 boat that he owns than a Cr50,000 cargo that isn't even his. And with a prospective loss of that magnitude, a trader is much more likely to pay to install weapons. Corsairs have to pay battle damage too.

After the trader moves off, the corsair flies up close, sends a few guys in vacc suits over to the ship's boat to make sure it isn't filled with marines or a bomb, and then open up the clam shell.
So the corsair only loses a few men if the boat blows. And the prize, of course.


Hans
 
Yes, ship's boats are definitely loot that can keep a corsair operation in the black. There's just one little problem with that...


As would the replacement cost of a launch or a ship's boat. A captain is much more likely to fight to defend a MCr15 boat that he owns than a Cr50,000 cargo that isn't even his. And with a prospective loss of that magnitude, a trader is much more likely to pay to install weapons. Corsairs have to pay battle damage too.


So the corsair only loses a few men if the boat blows. And the prize, of course.


Hans


I agree that being a pirate is dangerous, and people don't like getting robbed. But, still small-craft-napping is what the corsair seems to be designed to do (unless there's something really valueable about X-boats).
 
If the pirate/privateer business offers a sufficiently large rate of return compared to the risks involved, financing will be available. Pirates just need to provide bigger rates of return to compensate for the added risks of getting into trouble with the law.

The big problem IMO is that I think the risks involved would be prohibitive. The existence of a ship type dedicated to corsair work argues that the risk isn't too big, but I think it would be. Especially if you add the risk of a Vargr crew deciding to fly off with the ship you financed.


Hans

Funny, but quite a few privateering expeditions historically were investment funded by banks. Usually acting as agents/proxies for actual investors, to hide the liabilities.
 
Historically privateers were funded by governments and banks. Second tier pirates, actual pirates not backed by governments but by banks, did have a financial cushion to fall back on. Real pirates, privateers gone rogue to become actual Jolly Roger flying pirates, had to steal to survive. This included stealing rigging, sails, tools, and all kinds of things to keep their own boat afloat.

Look, like the other guy says on all the pirate threads, there be pirates ... matey. They're out there in the OTU. Deal.

The actual finances of piracy are another matter. I remember in the charts and tables a crate of Vacc-suits was worth X-number of credits. Yet the SRP for a single vacc-suit was considerably higher than a crate full of them. My buddy spotted this and started skimming cargo on his runs, chalking it up to casual theft at the last port, or lack of LP in the warehouse.

I think Traveller as a whole, like a lot of RPG/tactical-wargames has a few loopholes. Stealing and selling another man's launch will have its drawbacks though; registration being one of them. Surely there's a chip/transponder or something that's going to say "Hey, Mister and Misses Vilani Jones bought me way back in 1101 around Core. What the heck am I doing all the way out here in Aslan space two years later?" At least that's the conclusion that's going to come up with any navy worth its salt.

So, yeah, loot and pillage all you want, just remember that unlike the sailing vessels of yore, everything in the far future will have some kind of identification marking to trace it back to the original owner/user.

Still, there be pirates a plenty. Including the doggie kind.
 
I figured the corsairs were coming out of Vargr or Sword Worlds space - privateers, really - and were intended to do the ice-refueling bit we've discussed elsewhere. That way they don't have to go where people expect for fuel. They'd jump from one outer system to the next, drawing fuel from previously scouted ice comets and such, doing a jump-1 insystem to pirate and keeping enough fuel reserved to jump-1 out to their ice comet when they were ready (or forced) to leave.

Now, if I were going privateer and had some techical support behind me - read, "a rich Vargr or a Sword Worlds government bankrolling me out of some Vargr/Sword Worlds class-A port" - I'd take a subsidized merchant, fix additional maneuver drives concealed behind that rear bay door in the aft end of the cargo bay, upgrade power plant, jump and the computer, add some fuel tankage and a couple of pop-turrets to supplement the two turrets it already has, and I'd have a dandy Q-ship for privateering: streamlined, unobtrusive, with a ready 20-ton launch that could be armed for further firepower, with a cargo bay accessed by 4.5 meter tall, 7.5 meter wide front bay doors that will accept anything up to and including the 30-ton ship's boat, and able to surprise opponents with unexpected firepower or bursts of speed.
 
Historically privateers were funded by governments and banks. Second tier pirates, actual pirates not backed by governments but by banks, did have a financial cushion to fall back on. Real pirates, privateers gone rogue to become actual Jolly Roger flying pirates, had to steal to survive. This included stealing rigging, sails, tools, and all kinds of things to keep their own boat afloat.
Historically governments financed navies. Privateers were funded by private backers.

Look, like the other guy says on all the pirate threads, there be pirates ... matey. They're out there in the OTU. Deal.
Like I've stated on numerous occasions on other pirate threads, there are pirates in the OTU. I'm quite OK with that, because pirates are FUN, in an abstract, narrative, role-playing-gamey way considerably removed from reality. But accepting that pirates exist in the OTU does not require me to abandon my critical faculties, merely to ignore them. I'm still sceptical about how practical piracy as a career would actually be under the conditions that prevail in the Traveller universe, and if others disagree, I see no reason why I should not be allowed to express my opinion. Deal.


Hans
 
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Now, if I were going privateer and had some techical support behind me - read, "a rich Vargr or a Sword Worlds government bankrolling me out of some Vargr/Sword Worlds class-A port" - I'd take a subsidized merchant, fix additional maneuver drives concealed behind that rear bay door in the aft end of the cargo bay, upgrade power plant, jump and the computer, add some fuel tankage and a couple of pop-turrets to supplement the two turrets it already has, and I'd have a dandy Q-ship for privateering: streamlined, unobtrusive, with a ready 20-ton launch that could be armed for further firepower, with a cargo bay accessed by 4.5 meter tall, 7.5 meter wide front bay doors that will accept anything up to and including the 30-ton ship's boat, and able to surprise opponents with unexpected firepower or bursts of speed.

If I was the Emperor and I wanted to hamper piracy, I would decree that the burden of proof is reversed for any ship that is equipped to facilitate piracy. That is, if it is seriously handicapped when it comes to making an honest living by superior drives, computers, and weaponry, it had better be able to provide spotless financial records showing how it earns its living when challenged by any Imperial or Imperial member authority.

Not that an emperor would need it, but there is a historical precedence for something in that line. Ships equipped to transport slaves were assumed to be engaged in slave trade even if there was no hard evidence to that effect aboard.

(Note that I'm not saying that there is any canonical evidence for any such edict. Just that if I had any say in it, there would be one. ;))


Hans
 
Historically governments financed navies. Privateers were funded by private backers.


Like I've stated on numerous occasions on other pirate threads, there are pirates in the OTU. I'm quite OK with that, because pirates are FUN, in an abstract, narrative, role-playing-gamey way considerably removed from reality. But accepting that pirates exist in the OTU does not require me to abandon my critical faculties, merely to ignore them. I'm still sceptical about how practical piracy as a career would actually be under the conditions that prevail in the Traveller universe, and if others disagree, I see no reason why I should not be allowed to express my opinion. Deal.


Hans

My response from my "Real Pirates" thread, to which no one has responded.

This is a link I got off of another website that caters to sailors like myself. I've never been around the world, only sailing off the coasts. But when I used to do a lot of blue water sailing as a pre-teen and teen, I would catch tidbits of conversations regarding gunfights. I did so again when I worked on movies, usually by some "worldly type" who liked to brag about his adventures.

This is one such tail, and it should serve as a template for part of Marc Miller's inspiration for Traveller (even though this story dates from 2007). Such incidents were more frequent in the days of yore, but are persistent to this very day;

http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-03-14-1
 
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My response from my "Real Pirates" thread, to which no one has responded.
Not on this occasion, but I have responded to similar arguments in the past. Essentially, the conditions that apply for surface ships on surface seas are not analogous to the conditions that prevail for starships in the Traveller universe . If they were, ships would teleport from 3 miles seawards of one harbor to 3 miles seawards of another harbor.


Hans
 
Not on this occasion, but I have responded to similar arguments in the past. Essentially, the conditions that apply for surface ships on surface seas are not analogous to the conditions that prevail for starships in the Traveller universe . If they were, ships would teleport from 3 miles seawards of one harbor to 3 miles seawards of another harbor.


Hans
Here's my response from my "Civvies with guns" thread;

I posted a real pirate incident that happened five years ago in the Indian Ocean region near Yemen. That kind of stuff happens more often than not. In the Carribean and off of the west coast of Africa it's more a case of swimmers heading out to yachts and looting money, TVs, computers and the like.

When I think of Traveller, I think of a close cousin to Star Wars where you get the occasional Millennium Falcon type captain who's slapped some AAA on his ship for "self defense". Maybe the guy and his crew walk around armed, maybe not. It depends on the world and other circumstances. But, the ship is capable of repelling the casual thief/pirate.

I read a post by a yachtsman on another BBS who told of some cannibal pirates in the Phillipenes, and how he and his buddy had to gun their engines to escape a souped up barge sporting something like an M-60 or SAW on the front nose. Another account told of two yachts that were being attacked by pirates armed with AK-47s. The yacht owners returned fire with shotguns using Buck-00 to keep the heads down of the pirates. This let one of the yachts maneuver for a ram, which nearly sank the pirate vessel. All these incidents happened within the last five years, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

So, piracy on the high seas still happens. *snip*
I think the problem here, as you pointed out, is the intensity and magnitude. It would appear that from listening to the more worldly travelled, that piracy, on a low key status, is still very much active. So how often do you encounter a pirate with a Phalanx CIWS mounted on the prow, or even a five inch autoloading gun? Never. However, if we were still in a time with lawless oceans like the 15th to 19th centuries, then there might be a possibility of it.

I think the Imperium, as discussed in other threads, is full of possibilities. I'll grant that there are some real practical considerations here; i.e. where do you dock, where do you ge spare parts for that gimble that absorbs shock that might've been translated to the power plant, or that rare special fit bleeder hose that kicks excess moisture out the hull, rare batteries, how do you keep from being IDeed when you go near civilized space, and how do you explain that you were gone for six months without a flight plan or setting down on any world with any kind of traffic monitoring?

You could chalk it up to adventure, or, if you're a real hard-@$$ of a REF, just put the bureaucratic wheels to your players, then call in those TL-15 marines that happen to be acting as starport security for that day, and then watch your players sweat as they try to double talk their way out of how they got their hands on a ship that fired off a mayday three weeks ago,

So, yeah, you're right. It's not all "let's attack and rob a ship blind, then see if we can hock the plunder at some seedy world", but that doesn't make for fun adventuring... if you're of a pirate mindset.

Just me.
 
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