One side's corsair is another side's pirate.
Corsair--What were they thinking?
- Thread starter Old_Dr_Skull
- Start date
One side's corsair is another side's pirate.
That's true. Unlike the distinction between privateers and pirates, where privateers are accepted as legitimate (subject to being treated in a fashion similar to national ships) and pirates are regarded as criminals, Vargr tend to regard corsairs as legitimate whereas Imperials regard them as criminals.
It should be noted that privateers are subject to various rules and regulations and become pirates when they disregard those. Corsairs seem to be under no similar restraint, which IMO tends to support the Imperial view.
Hans
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O
Omnivore
Guest
Having reread the Starwolves stories recently, I think something like the following design is more fitting for the role:
Just seems to capture the spirit of the idea more than the stock Corsair.
Brian
Code:
Class: Pouncer
Type: Corsair
Architect: Omnivore
Tech Level: 12
USP
Q-4125541-000000-30003-0 MCr 369.492 400 Tons
Bat Bear 2 1 Crew: 21
Bat 2 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 56 Crew Sections: 1 of 21 Fuel: 100 EP: 20 Agility: 3 Marines: 8
Craft: 1 x 30T Ship's Boat, 1 x 8T GCarrier
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 3.525 Cost in Quantity: MCr 298.994Just seems to capture the spirit of the idea more than the stock Corsair.
Brian
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I think that is including the 8 troops, so 13 crew?
Commander, Pilot, Navigator, Medic, Guns x4, Eng x3? Boat Driver, Boat Gunner?
At a guess.
O
Omnivore
Guest
Yep, I use Andrew Vallance's handy little HGS proggie for quick designs like the above. It automatically calculates the crew (*cheers*).
How do you "operate out of safe ports" when you are out of gas after one jump?
Even easier, cross out the "Un" in the description, and you're done.
Steal yourself a 400 ton ship that's streamlined, in that case. I suggest the Patrol Cruiser, which outclasses the Corsair in almost every way possible.
Actually, the biggest issue with the corsair isn't the lack of streamlining (which can be eliminated with the stroke of a pen), but the lack of space onboard for prize crews. "Ten staterooms serve as quarters for the crew (pilot, navigator, three engineers, and assorted thugs and cutthroats numbering up to five more)"...note that they don't even allow for gunners, much less at least four people for every prize taken.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
My quick off the cuff solutions:
Dismountable tanks in the cargo hold for one mean you're not out of gas after one jump. Might even make a few. Could even set up a fuel cache by dropping some at a rendezvous point. Come on, stretch that imagination
Aside from the fact it is a design change that costs more of course. And seems unrealistic with the description of variable geometry, except perhaps in one of the variable sets.
That's gonna get you a LOT more heat than stealing some trader's launch. Besides which, one is much easier to steal than the other.
The phrase "old bold pirates" leaps to mind... "There are old pirates, and there are bold pirates, but there are no old bold pirates."
No issue unless you're ignoring double bunking, these are NOT luxury cruise passengers. The 10 staterooms gets you easily 19 pirates, less the required crew of pilot, navigator, engineers x3 (you don't need the rest once you've got your prize ship) and not counting the Captain (who I give a single stateroom) that leaves you 13 assorted crew to form your prize crew from. More than enough I should think. Unless you're thinking of capturing something really big with your tiny little corsair
And I'm not even counting using some of the lowberths for a few replacement crew on ice. Why wouldn't pirates employ a frozen watch? Smart ones would :devil:
My standard Corsair crew breakdown fwiw:
Captain (1 stateroom)
Pilot and Nav (1 stateroom)
Chief Engineer and Gunnery Chief (1 stateroom)
Engineers x2 (1 stateroom)
Gunners x2 (1 stateroom)
Medic (1 stateroom + room for a patient)
Prize Crew x4 (2 staterooms - soldiers with a little crew skill - pilot, nav, engineer, gunner - board and run)
EDIT: Oops, forgot the muscle
Thugs x4 (2 staterooms)
Frozen Watch (9 lowberths for various crew replacements)
Dismountable tanks in the cargo hold for one mean you're not out of gas after one jump. Might even make a few. Could even set up a fuel cache by dropping some at a rendezvous point. Come on, stretch that imagination
Aside from the fact it is a design change that costs more of course. And seems unrealistic with the description of variable geometry, except perhaps in one of the variable sets.
That's gonna get you a LOT more heat than stealing some trader's launch. Besides which, one is much easier to steal than the other.
The phrase "old bold pirates" leaps to mind... "There are old pirates, and there are bold pirates, but there are no old bold pirates."
No issue unless you're ignoring double bunking, these are NOT luxury cruise passengers. The 10 staterooms gets you easily 19 pirates, less the required crew of pilot, navigator, engineers x3 (you don't need the rest once you've got your prize ship) and not counting the Captain (who I give a single stateroom) that leaves you 13 assorted crew to form your prize crew from. More than enough I should think. Unless you're thinking of capturing something really big with your tiny little corsair
And I'm not even counting using some of the lowberths for a few replacement crew on ice. Why wouldn't pirates employ a frozen watch? Smart ones would :devil:
My standard Corsair crew breakdown fwiw:
Captain (1 stateroom)
Pilot and Nav (1 stateroom)
Chief Engineer and Gunnery Chief (1 stateroom)
Engineers x2 (1 stateroom)
Gunners x2 (1 stateroom)
Medic (1 stateroom + room for a patient)
Prize Crew x4 (2 staterooms - soldiers with a little crew skill - pilot, nav, engineer, gunner - board and run)
EDIT: Oops, forgot the muscle
Thugs x4 (2 staterooms)
Frozen Watch (9 lowberths for various crew replacements)
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No issue unless you're ignoring double bunking, these are NOT luxury cruise passengers. The 10 staterooms gets you easily 19 pirates, less the required crew of pilot, navigator, engineers x3 (you don't need the rest once you've got your prize ship) and not counting the Captain (who I give a single stateroom) that leaves you 13 assorted crew to form your prize crew from. More than enough I should think. Unless you're thinking of capturing something really big with your tiny little corsair
And I'm not even counting using some of the lowberths for a few replacement crew on ice. Why wouldn't pirates employ a frozen watch? Smart ones would :devil:
My standard Corsair crew breakdown fwiw:
Captain (1 stateroom)
Pilot and Nav (1 stateroom)
Chief Engineer and Gunnery Chief (1 stateroom)
Engineers x2 (1 stateroom)
Gunners x2 (1 stateroom)
Medic (1 stateroom + room for a patient)
Prize Crew x4 (2 staterooms - soldiers with a little crew skill - pilot, nav, engineer, gunner - board and run)
EDIT: Oops, forgot the muscle
Thugs x4 (2 staterooms)
Frozen Watch (9 lowberths for various crew replacements)
Actually, I'm assuming you're capturing more than one stinking ship per flight.
When I think of piracy in Trav, I tend to think in terms of jumping 10-12 parsecs away from your base before you start hunting, to make it harder on the lads doing the pirate-hunting.
So, with a corsair, we're talking a couple months out, twice that back (a free trader can't jump as far as you can). So six months plus loiter time per flight.
One ship captured every seven months (if you're lucky) does not a successful pirate make. If that's all you're going to do, you're better off selling the corsair, splitting the money among the crew, and living a life of relative ease on the proceeds.
That's quite true, "Commodore". One starship captured every seven months doesn't make for a successful pirate. Instead, one capture every seven months makes for an extremely successful pirate.
Stealing one ship's boat and selling it at roughly 10% (IIRC) of list will pay a corsair's bills for a year. Stealing a much more expensive starship will keep a corsair in beer and skittles for far much longer.
Let me also remind everyone for the 156,434,987th time that pirates historically did not depend on capturing entire ships.
This is also the point where I'll point out that a pirate can make do, if they have a safe port with free fuel¹, by simply ordering the target to "Dump 6 cargo containers or we laser your happy ass!!! 5 minutes!!!" Keep in mind, that's 24 tons - about 1/3 of a Type A - not enough to break them, but enough, without having purchased, to pay for LS. Even 24 tons of grain is still around 7.5K... and if in a haven system, it's just a form of graft. If your can catch two such loads, and jump, the target knows you've kept up when you stop accelerating to be able to catch the cargo. If willing to use the much cheaper bulk LS recharge³, it's enough to operate for a couple weeks. A lucky haul, and they're good for a year.
¹: either they skim it from a GG or a body of water.
³: As listed in Best of JTAS's mining article
Peter Newman
SOC-12
Well of course it has to refuel at a port - the naval architects designed it that way on purpose so they could 'prove' it wouldn't work as a pirate ship. Otherwise they might have been prosecuted for aiding and abetting piracy.
No, seriously.
Travellerspud
SOC-12
good points - everyone is better off with a little cargo out the lock or a ship's boat (as was mentioned earlier). No one gets hurt, and the only people that complain (the Accountants) are far away in both space and time...("Unavoidable losses during transit, etc, etc" on the insurance forms). Only if this happens too often for a given Captain (who travels outside normal spacelanes maybe?) will the Insurance rates go up...
Only those that fight (or dump too little bribe booty) should expect to be fired on...unless it is more politically motivated than piracy...
historically, however, the Navy officers and crews DID rely on capturing pirate ships (for the prize money). The pirates themselves were typically worthless (other than for show trials back home).
A more subtle issue is what happens when you are backed by a local government as a "privateer" (say a Pirate Hunter) only to have that government collapse and be replaced by another in the middle of your voyage...essentially what happened to Captain Kidd...
Privateers face 3 big risks
1) defeat in combat
2) change of gov't in sponsoring polity
3) change of acceptability of sponsoring polity with home polity.
3's important. A local gov't that your home gov't says is OK, then later decides is a piratical gov't whilst you're their privateer gets you a pirate sentence if you go home.
They face several more minor risks as well - non-recognition by neutrals, forfeiture of prize, kangaroo courts in non-neutral 3rd parties, misplacement of documentation of letter....
1) defeat in combat
2) change of gov't in sponsoring polity
3) change of acceptability of sponsoring polity with home polity.
3's important. A local gov't that your home gov't says is OK, then later decides is a piratical gov't whilst you're their privateer gets you a pirate sentence if you go home.
They face several more minor risks as well - non-recognition by neutrals, forfeiture of prize, kangaroo courts in non-neutral 3rd parties, misplacement of documentation of letter....
O
Omnivore
Guest
No longer a contributor to this board.
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Maybe it is just me,
Whenever I have seen pictures of the Corsair it always looked and even the description of it sound pretty damned streamlined to me. Mostly though it is the pictures of the Corsair that would lead me to Rule in Favor of the Player if they pushed the issue. It looks streamlined.
Now maybe what we need then is a new Canon exterior. One that says plainly to Referees and Players alike "This Corsair is for sure not streamlined!".
Because if one of those shows up in any of my TUs it is going to be classified Streamlined. But not Sexy Streamlined, there is only one of those.
Whenever I have seen pictures of the Corsair it always looked and even the description of it sound pretty damned streamlined to me. Mostly though it is the pictures of the Corsair that would lead me to Rule in Favor of the Player if they pushed the issue. It looks streamlined.
Now maybe what we need then is a new Canon exterior. One that says plainly to Referees and Players alike "This Corsair is for sure not streamlined!".
Because if one of those shows up in any of my TUs it is going to be classified Streamlined. But not Sexy Streamlined, there is only one of those.
If I were piloting a Corsair, I'd keep track of the location of ice asteroids and jump to those as my fuel source. Carve off a suitably-sized chunk or two, bring it into that big bay through those "will accept a 100-ton ship" clamshell doors, move off and let it melt in the bay, draining the melt into the tanks. It'd take a bit of time, might need to raise the temp in the hold, but that would get me my fuel - and at a place where no one was looking for me.
O
Omnivore
Guest
No longer a contributor to this board.
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"As you exit jump, your sensor array picks up a blip about 100 thousand klicks planetward - no energy signature, just a large cold metallic object drifting slowly toward the planet. Careful examination with image enhancement reveals what looks like the center section of a 200-ton free trader. There's some flotsam and quite a few metal droplets of various sizes around the hulk - all space-cold - but there's no sign of the bridge or drive sections. It looks like someone crudely cut the bridge and drive sections away, leaving the quarters section adrift here.
"As you begin wondering about the trustworthiness of the contractor who hired you to deliver your cargo of food aid, you recall with sudden unease that this remote system doesn't have a space force of any sort."
"As you begin wondering about the trustworthiness of the contractor who hired you to deliver your cargo of food aid, you recall with sudden unease that this remote system doesn't have a space force of any sort."
Amber Chancer
SOC-12
IMTU pirates and corsairs have operated in a number of different contexts.
My favourite is the one where they are running a protection racket with the operators of the private commerce escorts who hire their services to the captains of merchant ships wishing to jump to the notoriously pirate-inhabited asteroid belt system, which is a necessary port-of-call for traders wanting to exploit some highly lucrative trading opportunity.
There are actually three elements to the scam.
1. An innocuous looking trader who loads up with "own cargo" containers, which are actually collapsible and occupy little space when collapsed. They are loaded and then collapsed, so it appears that a full load of cargo has been put on board ... whereas the hold is really full of collapsible fuel tanks allowing the trader to carry a full load of fuel to the corsair. This trader declines the offer of protection ... refuels the corsair ... then comes back complaining of having been attacked and robbed of his cargo.
2. The private escort company (operating Gazelles or similar) who are that much more able to persuade merchant captains of the need for their protection, and so assemble a small convoy who happily pay their fee for protection from corsairs.
3. The corsair who duly makes an appearance, before being chased off by the private escorts (with a great show of exchange of fire ... but no actual damage donw because of course they're all on the same side really) ... thereby making the mugs who are paying for their protection immensely grateful for the services being provided, and more than willing to continue paying through the nose to receive them.
The trick is to make the commercial opportunity sufficeintly lurcative that players decide to go for it ... and then "big up" the risk of pirate attack such that they are willing to buy in the necessary protection ... at charges which knock out much (but not all) of the value of the commercial opportunity.
And the real fun comes when you get some characters who notice that the real profit is being made by the private gunboats, and decide to go into the private gunboat business for themselves ... only to find themselves in a turf war against a rival who turns out to be not quite what they expected ...
So far as the "everything would have a computer chip" argument goes ... I reject this way of thinking because (a) it is stultifyingly dull; and (b) a quick review of the history of the world shows that the criminals are always one step ahead of the law enforcement agencies in such matters. VIN numbers are supposed to make all cars traceable ... but cars still get stolen. I am quite sure that whatever devices to assure the history and identity of a space vehicle could be devised, other ways of overwriting, or overruling it, could also be devised by those with the necessary computer skills and criminal intent. And if nothing else will work, you can always shoot it up a little, destroy the offending system, plead pirate attack and go in search of a replacement part that will say what YOU want it to say.
Of course, depending upon the direction you want your game to go in, you can ensure that the search for the people with the skills to make your stolen merchandise look legitimate, and thus saleable in the open market, becomes a major part of the adventure ... and maybe swallows up a sufficiently large part of the profits that piracy turns out not to be such a lucrative racket after all.
Alternatively, it may be that they can sell their stolen small craft to a "chop shop" which recycles the parts ... but at an obvious discount, so that the price paid will be but a fraction of the value in the legitimate market if only they had access to that market ... which, unfortunately, they don't.
Or they could maybe team up with a forger who has great experience of the starship finance industry, and who can produce documentation which will make it APPEAR that any sale of the vessel is a legitimate foreclosure sale by some finance house that nobody has ever heard of but which he represents ... thus enabling it to be sold into the legitimate market. Of course, your characters will have to accept that if, as and when somebody starts asking questions, it is HIM they will come looking for ... so he will want the agreed division of the spoils to reflect the true balance of risk involved ...
Yeah, I love games with priates (whether they are the players, or NPCs) and there are plenty of ways of incorporating them into your gaming.
My favourite is the one where they are running a protection racket with the operators of the private commerce escorts who hire their services to the captains of merchant ships wishing to jump to the notoriously pirate-inhabited asteroid belt system, which is a necessary port-of-call for traders wanting to exploit some highly lucrative trading opportunity.
There are actually three elements to the scam.
1. An innocuous looking trader who loads up with "own cargo" containers, which are actually collapsible and occupy little space when collapsed. They are loaded and then collapsed, so it appears that a full load of cargo has been put on board ... whereas the hold is really full of collapsible fuel tanks allowing the trader to carry a full load of fuel to the corsair. This trader declines the offer of protection ... refuels the corsair ... then comes back complaining of having been attacked and robbed of his cargo.
2. The private escort company (operating Gazelles or similar) who are that much more able to persuade merchant captains of the need for their protection, and so assemble a small convoy who happily pay their fee for protection from corsairs.
3. The corsair who duly makes an appearance, before being chased off by the private escorts (with a great show of exchange of fire ... but no actual damage donw because of course they're all on the same side really) ... thereby making the mugs who are paying for their protection immensely grateful for the services being provided, and more than willing to continue paying through the nose to receive them.
The trick is to make the commercial opportunity sufficeintly lurcative that players decide to go for it ... and then "big up" the risk of pirate attack such that they are willing to buy in the necessary protection ... at charges which knock out much (but not all) of the value of the commercial opportunity.
And the real fun comes when you get some characters who notice that the real profit is being made by the private gunboats, and decide to go into the private gunboat business for themselves ... only to find themselves in a turf war against a rival who turns out to be not quite what they expected ...
So far as the "everything would have a computer chip" argument goes ... I reject this way of thinking because (a) it is stultifyingly dull; and (b) a quick review of the history of the world shows that the criminals are always one step ahead of the law enforcement agencies in such matters. VIN numbers are supposed to make all cars traceable ... but cars still get stolen. I am quite sure that whatever devices to assure the history and identity of a space vehicle could be devised, other ways of overwriting, or overruling it, could also be devised by those with the necessary computer skills and criminal intent. And if nothing else will work, you can always shoot it up a little, destroy the offending system, plead pirate attack and go in search of a replacement part that will say what YOU want it to say.
Of course, depending upon the direction you want your game to go in, you can ensure that the search for the people with the skills to make your stolen merchandise look legitimate, and thus saleable in the open market, becomes a major part of the adventure ... and maybe swallows up a sufficiently large part of the profits that piracy turns out not to be such a lucrative racket after all.
Alternatively, it may be that they can sell their stolen small craft to a "chop shop" which recycles the parts ... but at an obvious discount, so that the price paid will be but a fraction of the value in the legitimate market if only they had access to that market ... which, unfortunately, they don't.
Or they could maybe team up with a forger who has great experience of the starship finance industry, and who can produce documentation which will make it APPEAR that any sale of the vessel is a legitimate foreclosure sale by some finance house that nobody has ever heard of but which he represents ... thus enabling it to be sold into the legitimate market. Of course, your characters will have to accept that if, as and when somebody starts asking questions, it is HIM they will come looking for ... so he will want the agreed division of the spoils to reflect the true balance of risk involved ...
Yeah, I love games with priates (whether they are the players, or NPCs) and there are plenty of ways of incorporating them into your gaming.
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