CT Computers - Again

[BillDowns]

At the risk of being shot down...

This thread is to discuss enhancements to the LBB2 computer model, pulling several things from other threads into one place. Such things would be add-on peripherals and custom software.

Please note that the basic premis of the LBB2 Computers is assumed. This is not to discuss whether to eliminate them or not. No offense is intended to anyone, but I really don't want to argue with anyone. Just propose some ideas and, hopefully, get some back.

 

[BillDowns]

At the risk of being shot down...

This thread is to discuss enhancements to the LBB2 computer model, pulling several things from other threads into one place. Such things would be add-on peripherals and custom software.

Please note that the basic premis of the LBB2 Computers is assumed. This is not to discuss whether to eliminate them or not. No offense is intended to anyone, but I really don't want to argue with anyone. Just propose some ideas and, hopefully, get some back.

 

[BillDowns]

Now, with all that being said,

The only real way in which the LBB2 computers can be considered broken is in the relative pricing. I'm gong to throw in a program and illustrate my thoughts.

The software is Network Server, with a space requirement of 2 CPU. That would always be CPU as it needs to run constantly.

A Model 1's stats are cost = 2 MCr, spaces 2/4.
Model 2 stats are cost = 9 MCr, spaces 3/6.

Here's the problem, assuming the aforementioned NetworkServer. If I buy a Model 1 with Network Server, I get a net of cost = 2 MCr, spaces 0/4. Two of them get me cost 4 MCr, spaces 0/8. Add in a Model 1bis, I get 8MCr, spaces 4/8.

Why would I get a Model 2?

As the computer models get larger, the gap grows. This is what I meant by "relative pricing". Any feedback

 

[BillDowns]

Now, with all that being said,

The only real way in which the LBB2 computers can be considered broken is in the relative pricing. I'm gong to throw in a program and illustrate my thoughts.

The software is Network Server, with a space requirement of 2 CPU. That would always be CPU as it needs to run constantly.

A Model 1's stats are cost = 2 MCr, spaces 2/4.
Model 2 stats are cost = 9 MCr, spaces 3/6.

Here's the problem, assuming the aforementioned NetworkServer. If I buy a Model 1 with Network Server, I get a net of cost = 2 MCr, spaces 0/4. Two of them get me cost 4 MCr, spaces 0/8. Add in a Model 1bis, I get 8MCr, spaces 4/8.

Why would I get a Model 2?

As the computer models get larger, the gap grows. This is what I meant by "relative pricing". Any feedback

 

[atpollard]

My personal solution to this issue was to state that no computer can run a program of a higher level than it's model number. For example, Predict-3 or Gunner-3 or Jump-3 would all require at least a model 3 computer to run. Lower Model computers are less expensive per "CPU unit" but are also less capable.

It is a bit heavy handed, but has the advantage of being a simple rule.

 

[pendragonman]

Originally posted by atpollard:
My personal solution to this issue was to state that no computer can run a program of a higher level than it's model number. For example, Predict-3 or Gunner-3 or Jump-3 would all require at least a model 3 computer to run. Lower Model computers are less expensive per "CPU unit" but are also less capable.

It is a bit heavy handed, but has the advantage of being a simple rule.

I have used this ruling before. It seems to work well if you stick to CT only and no hg designing.

 

[pendragonman]

Originally posted by atpollard:
My personal solution to this issue was to state that no computer can run a program of a higher level than it's model number. For example, Predict-3 or Gunner-3 or Jump-3 would all require at least a model 3 computer to run. Lower Model computers are less expensive per "CPU unit" but are also less capable.

It is a bit heavy handed, but has the advantage of being a simple rule.

I have used this ruling before. It seems to work well if you stick to CT only and no hg designing.

 

[BillDowns]

Chucky, please explain the HG reference.

Thanks

 

[BillDowns]

Chucky, please explain the HG reference.

Thanks

 

[pendragonman]

In HG, there is no reference to, or need for, declaring which programs are running when, IIRC. Thus, sticking to strictly those comps avail in CT avoid much argument. Further, the structure of CT allows for greater crew interaction in space combat (not just the pilot, gunners and Damage Control).

 

[pendragonman]

In HG, there is no reference to, or need for, declaring which programs are running when, IIRC. Thus, sticking to strictly those comps avail in CT avoid much argument. Further, the structure of CT allows for greater crew interaction in space combat (not just the pilot, gunners and Damage Control).

 

[far-trader]

<sigh>



High Guard space combat rules are for Fleet Engagements, not role-playing, the computer programming rules (and many others) are therefore necessarily abstracted (1).

Book 2 space combat rules are the ones for role-playing and include computer programming as a part of the game for that reason.

Nothing in HG says you don't use the computer programming rules. In fact, you'll note that the ship design rules in HG does include the programming levels for the computers. That seems to speak volumes about there being an intent to use programming rules in High Guard space combat (again see 1)

(1) or simply missing as an oversight or editing error, like the lack of rules for Fighters to name one

 

[far-trader]

<sigh>



High Guard space combat rules are for Fleet Engagements, not role-playing, the computer programming rules (and many others) are therefore necessarily abstracted (1).

Book 2 space combat rules are the ones for role-playing and include computer programming as a part of the game for that reason.

Nothing in HG says you don't use the computer programming rules. In fact, you'll note that the ship design rules in HG does include the programming levels for the computers. That seems to speak volumes about there being an intent to use programming rules in High Guard space combat (again see 1)

(1) or simply missing as an oversight or editing error, like the lack of rules for Fighters to name one

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
Why would I get a Model 2?

Like you, I use the computer rules in Book 2 "as-is". I just assign more modern definitions to them. The "computer" refers to the entire system aboard a spacecraft with multiple CPUs for multiple computers that do everyting from monitor the hatch sensors to collecting sensor data to managing life support, etc., etc.

There are certain "mega-programs" that tax the network's recources. These are the programs listed in Book 2. They're really not single programs but more like a program-family that integrates with many subsystems on the ship.

For example, just think of how many systems Anti-Hijack has to interface with in order to work properly. Or Anti-Missile. Or even Return Fire.

The "CPU" rating is a measure of the network being taxed by these mega-programs. Sure, subcomputers and workstations remain running normally whether the CPU is full or not. If the CPU is full, does that mean the tiny program the engineer uses to monitor the heat generated by the ship's power plant stops working? Nope. The CPU is strictly a measure of how many of these mega-programs the ship's system can run at one time.

Ever had a problem where a super-invasive program, like Nortan Anti-Virus (that get's into EVERYTHING) interferes with some other application you're trying to use? That's the type of thing I'm talking about here. These mega-program accesss so many systems and tax the network's resources so much that there is a limit to how many of the mega-programs can operate at one time.

Right now, on my personal computer (3.4 GHz, 2 Gig RAM, 1 Gig Video RAM, DSL), I've noticed that there is a limit to how many windows can be opened to different web sites when I surf the net. It's about 15 windows or so. If I open that many, and then click on a link inside another web page that should open a program (maybe something taxing like watching a video, or music), my machine will just sit there and do nothing. I'll hit the link, but I'll get no response. If I close a few windows, then I can hit the link and continue my multi-window surfing.

I figure, in a future-istic Traveller-kind-of-way, the same thing is going on with the "CPU" rating of Book 2 space craft. Except, we're talking about much, much larger programs--I doubt even a size 1 program would run on my personal computer today.

The only real deviation from Book 2 that I take is the storage space. I allow any limit of these mega-programs to be held on the ship's network "harddrive".

But, the rules work the same.

So, the CPU rating is really more of a "RAM" rating. It's how many of the programs can be started, sucking system resources (that's the "Storage" number), and how many can actually be used at one time (that's the "CPU" number).

Thinking about it that way, for me at least, make a lot of sense. The computer system doesn't seem dated at all looked at with that perspective.






So, during combat, the ship's captain will decide which of the mega-programs are best used for an encounter. Let's say the captain is exceptionally wealthy and has all the programs listed in Book 2 stored on his ship's harddrive.

No problem.

If he's got a M/1 computer (CPU 2/Storage 4), he can select six mega-programs to initiate and suck up his system's resouces, but only two of those programs can be working at any one time (during a particular starship combat phase). The other four are running, but they're "minimized" and "running in the background". The ship's network can't take all six of them running full-bore together. But, the ship's navigator can switch out the programs fairly easily by simply minimizing one and using another.

During the computer reprogramming phase, the navigator can switch out is pool of six programs for another six for use in the next 1000 seconds of the starship combat.

This is, more or less, exactly as Book 2 computer rules read. And, I think the slant makes the logic a little more modern and believeable.

At least for me.




So, your question was: Why get a Model 2?

My answer to that would be: Because you'll have more choice of programs to switch out.

The Model 1 runs 6 programs, but only 2 of those can be run at any one time during a particular phase.

The Model 1bis runs only 4 programs, but all 4 can be used in every space combat phase.

The Model 2 runs 9 programs, but only 3 of those can be run at any one time.

As an example, you might want to run ECM (Space 3) during the ship's Laser Return Fire phase. You wouldn't run this program with a Model 1 bis because of its size. It would only leave you 1 space to run another program that you'd need for the entire space combat round. If you ran ECM and Maneuver, you'd be able to move and use ECM in the one phase, but you wouldn't be able to fire any weapons (because you need Target).

But, if you had a Model 2, you could run ECM with other programs. During the Laser Return Fire phase, you'd be using ECM only. But, in the next phase, you'd trade that one out for another program.

With a Model 2, you can run ECM, Maneuver, Target, and Gunner Interact. For most phases, you'd run Maneuver, Target, and Gunner Interact. When the Laser Return Fire phase came, you'd run ECM only, before trading it in for the other three programs.

So, that's why a captain would use a Model 2 over a Model 1bis.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
Why would I get a Model 2?

Like you, I use the computer rules in Book 2 "as-is". I just assign more modern definitions to them. The "computer" refers to the entire system aboard a spacecraft with multiple CPUs for multiple computers that do everyting from monitor the hatch sensors to collecting sensor data to managing life support, etc., etc.

There are certain "mega-programs" that tax the network's recources. These are the programs listed in Book 2. They're really not single programs but more like a program-family that integrates with many subsystems on the ship.

For example, just think of how many systems Anti-Hijack has to interface with in order to work properly. Or Anti-Missile. Or even Return Fire.

The "CPU" rating is a measure of the network being taxed by these mega-programs. Sure, subcomputers and workstations remain running normally whether the CPU is full or not. If the CPU is full, does that mean the tiny program the engineer uses to monitor the heat generated by the ship's power plant stops working? Nope. The CPU is strictly a measure of how many of these mega-programs the ship's system can run at one time.

Ever had a problem where a super-invasive program, like Nortan Anti-Virus (that get's into EVERYTHING) interferes with some other application you're trying to use? That's the type of thing I'm talking about here. These mega-program accesss so many systems and tax the network's resources so much that there is a limit to how many of the mega-programs can operate at one time.

Right now, on my personal computer (3.4 GHz, 2 Gig RAM, 1 Gig Video RAM, DSL), I've noticed that there is a limit to how many windows can be opened to different web sites when I surf the net. It's about 15 windows or so. If I open that many, and then click on a link inside another web page that should open a program (maybe something taxing like watching a video, or music), my machine will just sit there and do nothing. I'll hit the link, but I'll get no response. If I close a few windows, then I can hit the link and continue my multi-window surfing.

I figure, in a future-istic Traveller-kind-of-way, the same thing is going on with the "CPU" rating of Book 2 space craft. Except, we're talking about much, much larger programs--I doubt even a size 1 program would run on my personal computer today.

The only real deviation from Book 2 that I take is the storage space. I allow any limit of these mega-programs to be held on the ship's network "harddrive".

But, the rules work the same.

So, the CPU rating is really more of a "RAM" rating. It's how many of the programs can be started, sucking system resources (that's the "Storage" number), and how many can actually be used at one time (that's the "CPU" number).

Thinking about it that way, for me at least, make a lot of sense. The computer system doesn't seem dated at all looked at with that perspective.






So, during combat, the ship's captain will decide which of the mega-programs are best used for an encounter. Let's say the captain is exceptionally wealthy and has all the programs listed in Book 2 stored on his ship's harddrive.

No problem.

If he's got a M/1 computer (CPU 2/Storage 4), he can select six mega-programs to initiate and suck up his system's resouces, but only two of those programs can be working at any one time (during a particular starship combat phase). The other four are running, but they're "minimized" and "running in the background". The ship's network can't take all six of them running full-bore together. But, the ship's navigator can switch out the programs fairly easily by simply minimizing one and using another.

During the computer reprogramming phase, the navigator can switch out is pool of six programs for another six for use in the next 1000 seconds of the starship combat.

This is, more or less, exactly as Book 2 computer rules read. And, I think the slant makes the logic a little more modern and believeable.

At least for me.




So, your question was: Why get a Model 2?

My answer to that would be: Because you'll have more choice of programs to switch out.

The Model 1 runs 6 programs, but only 2 of those can be run at any one time during a particular phase.

The Model 1bis runs only 4 programs, but all 4 can be used in every space combat phase.

The Model 2 runs 9 programs, but only 3 of those can be run at any one time.

As an example, you might want to run ECM (Space 3) during the ship's Laser Return Fire phase. You wouldn't run this program with a Model 1 bis because of its size. It would only leave you 1 space to run another program that you'd need for the entire space combat round. If you ran ECM and Maneuver, you'd be able to move and use ECM in the one phase, but you wouldn't be able to fire any weapons (because you need Target).

But, if you had a Model 2, you could run ECM with other programs. During the Laser Return Fire phase, you'd be using ECM only. But, in the next phase, you'd trade that one out for another program.

With a Model 2, you can run ECM, Maneuver, Target, and Gunner Interact. For most phases, you'd run Maneuver, Target, and Gunner Interact. When the Laser Return Fire phase came, you'd run ECM only, before trading it in for the other three programs.

So, that's why a captain would use a Model 2 over a Model 1bis.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
In fact, you'll note that the ship design rules in HG does include the programming levels for the computers. That seems to speak volumes about there being an intent to use programming rules in High Guard space combat

Yep. And Mayday, which can be used with either small player-sized vessels or larger High Guard starships, is a zoomed-out version of Book 2. It's on a larger scale (100 minute turns and hexes equal to 300,000 km rather than 10,000 km in Starter Traveller/Book 2) and necesarrily more abstract than Book 2.

But, it still uses the computer programming rules from Book 2.

So, if you've got your Azhanti High Lightning cruiser, and you want to role play it (because, you're right Dan, the computer programming rules are meant as a role playing choice), you can use Mayday and it's computer programming rules...and pretty much run a 60,000 ton cruiser as if it were you old 400 ton subsidized merchant.

Point being: Mayday accomodates large Traveller starships and uses computer programming rules.



EDIT: Mayday also includes an abstract rule for computers if a player doesn't want to mess with that sort of thing--especially in the larger engagements.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
In fact, you'll note that the ship design rules in HG does include the programming levels for the computers. That seems to speak volumes about there being an intent to use programming rules in High Guard space combat

Yep. And Mayday, which can be used with either small player-sized vessels or larger High Guard starships, is a zoomed-out version of Book 2. It's on a larger scale (100 minute turns and hexes equal to 300,000 km rather than 10,000 km in Starter Traveller/Book 2) and necesarrily more abstract than Book 2.

But, it still uses the computer programming rules from Book 2.

So, if you've got your Azhanti High Lightning cruiser, and you want to role play it (because, you're right Dan, the computer programming rules are meant as a role playing choice), you can use Mayday and it's computer programming rules...and pretty much run a 60,000 ton cruiser as if it were you old 400 ton subsidized merchant.

Point being: Mayday accomodates large Traveller starships and uses computer programming rules.



EDIT: Mayday also includes an abstract rule for computers if a player doesn't want to mess with that sort of thing--especially in the larger engagements.

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
[...snip...
So, your question was: Why get a Model 2?

My answer to that would be: Because you'll have more choice of programs to switch out.
...snip...

S-4, I go along with what you've said, as it reflects my own thought almost exactly. But, my point was that I can get 2 Model 1 and a Model 1bis for less money than a Model 2 and get more computing power in the long run.

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
[...snip...
So, your question was: Why get a Model 2?

My answer to that would be: Because you'll have more choice of programs to switch out.
...snip...

S-4, I go along with what you've said, as it reflects my own thought almost exactly. But, my point was that I can get 2 Model 1 and a Model 1bis for less money than a Model 2 and get more computing power in the long run.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
But, my point was that I can get 2 Model 1 and a Model 1bis for less money than a Model 2 and get more computing power in the long run.

Is there precedent for that in CT? Can a ship have two different computers?

I mean, that wouldn't work with my "modern POV" above because the ship's computer rating is considered a rating of the entire network (more computer power = higher network rating).

But, that's not an "official" CT rule.

(Flipping through books...)

Ah...I see that having a second computer is "official" and has precedent. The Leviathan has an aux. computer.

Here's where I think there's a problem with your logic on this, though, Bill.

You're thinking that you can run both computers together. That wouldn't be the case. One would be a back-up computer.

So, if you buy and install two Model 1bis, you'd run one and only one of them. If something happened to it (damaged in space combat, for example), you could simply start up with the second Model 1bis.

And, this fits in nicely with our "modern POV" above too, since you wouldn't have two "ship networks", but you might have a backup system should the primary network go down.