Cyberspace/Netrunning in Traveller

[Quint]

So, I'm getting ready to restart MTU (again) and have really been debating moving back to some version of the Traveller engine from the CP2020 rules that I've been using for the last 30 years or so.

The question I have is what have other people been doing (if anything) to cover more cyberpunkish "Netrunning" (direct neural interface to the Internet) rather than basic Computer hacking. I know I'm not going to use TNE or GT, so I'm less interested in solutions the derive from those engines (if I have to adapt that much I'll just use CP2020).

I like what the TV show Intelligence has been suggesting, and at the same time I think I could mine Person of Interest for some ideas as well. But I also want something that gives that same sort of netrunning flavor for those hi-tech planets that have the infrastructure.

D.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I don't have the resources that others do, but in what I do have there is much evidence to support each system being unique and doing things the way they want.

I'm not aware of any reason a TL12 item would be compatible with the TL12 network in another system let alone on a TL9 or TL15

Just something to think about. Some of the shows you mention have not had to deal with this type of issue. Imagine a smart phone working in the non wireless world of just 30 years ago. It probably wouldn't even work with the wireless networks of just 15 years ago.

 

[Quint]

I don't have the resources that others do, but in what I do have there is much evidence to support each system being unique and doing things the way they want.

I... would argue almost the exact opposite. In that case ammunition should limited to specific make and model of weapon (or some other arcane methodology, system of manufacture, etc) and you wouldn't be able to just go any buy a "box of revolver ammo".

I'm not aware of any reason a TL12 item would be compatible with the TL12 network in another system let alone on a TL9 or TL15

Similarly, I'm not sure many people are making the argument that comm units aren't compatible from system to system (though each system might very well have it's own system of channels and restricted wavelengths, etc), or that computers on a Zhodani ship can't talk to computers in an Imperial port. While this might make for an interesting complication at times this certainly isn't the norm or it would be explicit. The game is based on the implicit assumption that at least on an interstellar polity level both within the Imperium and between the other powers of Known Space that there are some sorts "ISO" organization. This is, IIRC, actually an explicit thing in some of the materials from T4 (but I might be misremembering). It's all but unfathomable that the Imperium, based on "let the goods flow" would have this as a cornerstone of at least intra-Imperial trade.

[QUOTE}Just something to think about. Some of the shows you mention have not had to deal with this type of issue. Imagine a smart phone working in the non wireless world of just 30 years ago. It probably wouldn't even work with the wireless networks of just 15 years ago.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but that's really not what the trope is talking about. I'm not suggesting that someone with a Interface Plugs can jack into an adding machine, or that a TL10 "Internet of Things" is probably going to look different in some significant way than a TL15 "Internet of Things" (and that compatibility of tech between those two systems might be challenged).

But, fundamentally, there is at least one Imperial-wide "Internet of things" which would be the Imperial Navy (given it's need to move from A to Z) along with the IISS, particularly the X-Boat network which transmits data not physical mail (for the most part). So, there is a good argument to made that at the very least, all Imperial bases operate on the same operating standard (and thus network design/hardware). Plus, if you want to do business with said Imperial base - or transmit information to Imperial bases/ships that you need to be able to transmit that data in a format that they can read.

aka "The customs corvette says that unless we send them this document in Word so that they can read it, they are confiscating all of our cargo..."



That's before we start talking about *cough* mumbleTheVirusmumble which would pretty much be a de facto argument for a single (though dispersed) computer network ecosystem given that t could infect essentially any tech of the minimum tech level or higher.

:-(

D.

 

[esampson]

God, please don't use CP2020 or Shadowrun for your hacking/netrunning. When Gibson first wrote his cyberpunk netrunning stuff it wasn't particularly good and even then it was lightyears more sensible than the rendered avatars having running gun battles with security software that those games transformed it into. Those systems might work ok in games designed around a lot of style over substance but don't really belong in the more 'hard science' realm of Traveller.

My suggestion would be to look at the hacking/networking system in Eclipse Phase. It has a much more sensible/realistic flavor to it and the core rulebooks can be legally torrented for free (though if you like the system I would encourage you to shell out for a copy to support the designers and this form of business model).

 

[Reban]

I'm not aware of any reason a TL12 item would be compatible with the TL12 network in another system let alone on a TL9 or TL15

I'm with Psydar on this. I think the whole reason for the Imperium is standardization and regulation so that interstellar commerce (and the prerequistite is communication) can take place.

Dtons are standardized, airlocks match up, communications protocols exist etc. etc.


As for hacking and net running I like Eclipse Phase too. T5 allows net running too. It allows a character to record their personality, run it on a computer and jack in to monitor it, effectively giving the experience of being in the computer. There aren't any more rules than that, but I'd assume it happens in an environment running within the computer (more Caprica than Tron).

I also actually like the GURPS High-Tech rules for running virtual environments.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I think the whole reason for the Imperium is standardization and regulation so that interstellar commerce (and the prerequistite is communication) can take place.

I saw a discussion regarding a MTU with no rule set or setting details specified so was discussing things from that perspective.

I... would argue almost the exact opposite. In that case ammunition should limited to specific make and model of weapon (or some other arcane methodology, system of manufacture, etc) and you wouldn't be able to just go any buy a "box of revolver ammo".

For MTU I like my worlds to be different. So one world might use energy weapons predominantly. Another system might have automatic weapons but six shot revolvers are antiques. The law level in one system might not allow purchase of the ammo.
and so on
So for me, you wouldn't be able to "just go any buy a "box of revolver ammo"" in every city of every world. Not sure what rules support the standardization.

Similarly, I'm not sure many people are making the argument that comm units aren't compatible from system to system

Just my own logic and TU which I don't think breaks any rules. <shrug>

It's all but unfathomable that the Imperium, based on "let the goods flow" would have this as a cornerstone of at least intra-Imperial trade.

So, there is a good argument to made that at the very least, all Imperial bases operate on the same operating standard (and thus network design/hardware). Plus, if you want to do business with said Imperial base - or transmit information to Imperial bases/ships that you need to be able to transmit that data in a format that they can read.

I'm not saying it can't be so.

For me, there is a difference between a standard used in space and starports vs what a world does locally. Certainly many.... darn, can't think of the right word... my english is not the best... a world that has a lot of inter system business and interests will tend to use Imperial, or for a different TU, interstellar standards.

How about a world with a government intolerant of outsiders?
A poor system that perhaps can't afford to put whatever is needed to be compliant in place. Heck, the Imperium left them with a class x star port, why would they subsidize a communication network...
Would a low tech system with a low class starport even have a world wide comm system? Telegraph?
"There are no roads where we're going" would a wheeled vehicle be viable on a high tech world with no roads?

All things I believe likely with the systems that can be generated by the rules as well as published systems.

Certainly not trying to tell you what to do or not to do for your MTU.

Just something to think about.

and it looks like you are seeing some possibilities.

While this might make for an interesting complication at times this certainly isn't the norm

I also don't know how much of your adventuring takes place in space vs an adventure that takes you to several locations on a planet or moon or whatever.

----
In my current game I have a world that, by the published 3rd Imperium setting material, is populated by a minor race with high technology.

My additional world details: Since local technology is higher than Imperial standard, for cost, weight, and for more advanced features not possible with the Imperial standards, it may not be compatible. This allows me to come up with some interesting unique items for characters to see and even use but they may not work off world.

They also make "Imperial standard" (things you find in Traveller books) items at high tech for export and use by people that do interact with off worlders. There are also some items that are their local tech with adapters, additional software, or other modifications. This allows me to come up with some interesting unique items that characters can take with them and still be usable.

Some off world devices will be totally unusable on planet outside of the starport. Some devices may work in tourist cities and trade locations around the planet because technology has been put in place for it to work. Some devices may need adapters, software updates, or other modifications to work.

I decided that there would be little reason for them to create or maintain a worldwide (using a now days example) 2G network to be Imperial compatible when they have a 16G network.

 

[esampson]

I saw a discussion regarding a MTU with no rule set or setting details specified so was discussing things from that perspective.For MTU I like my worlds to be different. So one world might use energy weapons predominantly. Another system might have automatic weapons but six shot revolvers are antiques. The law level in one system might not allow purchase of the ammo.
and so on
So for me, you wouldn't be able to "just go any buy a "box of revolver ammo"" in every city of every world. Not sure what rules support the standardization. Just my own logic and TU which I don't think breaks any rules. <shrug>
I'm not saying it can't be so.

. . .

The two aren't really incompatible. As an example, if you were in America during the 70's and you wanted to go somewhere you would most likely jump in your car and drive. If you were in China and you wanted to go somewhere you would most likely take a bicycle or a train for longer trips.

Different cultures. Different ways of getting things done.

However, a gallon of gasoline purchased in China would still run an American car because there were a lot of international standards concerning gasoline. It might have been more difficult to find a gas station in China but it was far from impossible.

Likewise it might be more difficult to locate bullets on Planet B than it is on Planet A but unless local law was actively restricting them it probably wouldn't be too terribly difficult to find the proper bullets for your revolver, and I'm even assuming IMTU that bullets are a little less standard than merely 'revolver bullets'. You probably have a variety of calibers as well as things such as centerfire/rimfire.

However within those there is still enough standardization that unless you are using a pistol where it is nearly always difficult to get the correct ammunition because for some reason it was designed to fire an unusual 'non-standard' type of ammunition you shouldn't have too much difficulty (or if there was some form of active pressure that made bullets difficult to obtain, such as legal restrictions). Such weapons, though, probably wouldn't have stats as 'revolver' or 'heavy revolver'. They would have custom stats (which are pretty much the only reason to design such a gun in the first place).

 

[aramis]

Likewise it might be more difficult to locate bullets on Planet B than it is on Planet A but unless local law was actively restricting them it probably wouldn't be too terribly difficult to find the proper bullets for your revolver, and I'm even assuming IMTU that bullets are a little less standard than merely 'revolver bullets'. You probably have a variety of calibers as well as things such as centerfire/rimfire.

However within those there is still enough standardization that unless you are using a pistol where it is nearly always difficult to get the correct ammunition because for some reason it was designed to fire an unusual 'non-standard' type of ammunition you shouldn't have too much difficulty (or if there was some form of active pressure that made bullets difficult to obtain, such as legal restrictions). Such weapons, though, probably wouldn't have stats as 'revolver' or 'heavy revolver'. They would have custom stats (which are pretty much the only reason to design such a gun in the first place).

There are over 50 different pistol ammunition types (Wikipedia link) in current use...

But many which will fit won't work right except in revolvers, single shot action types (dropping breach, break-breach, single shot bolt), due to lack of pressure to operate the action, and others won't work because they overpressure and jam. My roommate had a .22LR Jennings- it would chamber .22L and .22S just fine, but .22S wouldn't work the action. .22CB wouldn't even load right. And CCI Stinger high power .22LR wouldn't always extract right.



And thats just one planet.

 

[JimMarn]

There are over 50 different pistol ammunition types (Wikipedia link) in current use...

But many which will fit won't work right except in revolvers, single shot action types (dropping breach, break-breach, single shot bolt), due to lack of pressure to operate the action, and others won't work because they overpressure and jam. My roommate had a .22LR Jennings- it would chamber .22L and .22S just fine, but .22S wouldn't work the action. .22CB wouldn't even load right. And CCI Stinger high power .22LR wouldn't always extract right.



And thats just one planet.

History channel documentary 'History of the Gun' with a very good expert. Mr. Hogg. He showed a number of pistols that Japan used in WW2, and the cartridges simply didn't match, even when they were allegedly the same caliber.

I have a .22 5 shot rifle years and years ago. The clip held 5 LR cartrdiges. To fire .22 shorts, you had to manually load them into the receiver.

There was anotgher .22 cartridge between them in length, it would mostly load from the clip, but you had to fire slowly.

 

[JimMarn]

Are there rules for 'diving' into as network like is done in the 'Ghost in the Shell' movies and anime episodes ? This movie came out in the 1990s.

Instead of hacking via keyboard, some in GitS jack in via a cable to the back of the skull/neck, and mentally travel into a network, write hacks in their minds, and then try them on the firewalls, etc. they find. Some firewalls have attack barriers that can fry the brain of the hacker.

From one or two episodes of the anime, some of the characters still use keyboards, but I get the impression it is considered 'old fashioned'.

 

[esampson]

There are over 50 different pistol ammunition types (Wikipedia link) in current use...

But many which will fit won't work right except in revolvers, single shot action types (dropping breach, break-breach, single shot bolt), due to lack of pressure to operate the action, and others won't work because they overpressure and jam. My roommate had a .22LR Jennings- it would chamber .22L and .22S just fine, but .22S wouldn't work the action. .22CB wouldn't even load right. And CCI Stinger high power .22LR wouldn't always extract right.



And thats just one planet.

Absolutely true, but first you are talking about all handguns. Traveller does break down hand guns somewhat with body pistol, revolver, heavy revolver, etc. Additionally in each 'family' of pistols there's only a handful that are really in widespread use. For instance .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum will probably cover 95% of your 'heavy revolvers' (by guns in use, not by name). Sure, there are revolvers that fire .60 rounds, but they are the minority of 'heavy revolvers' in existence.

Things like the .600 Nitro Express revolver would probably be very difficult to find ammo for but also probably shouldn't use the same stats as 'common' heavy revolvers, even though it falls into that general class.

 

[Vladika]

History channel documentary 'History of the Gun' with a very good expert. Mr. Hogg. He showed a number of pistols that Japan used in WW2, and the cartridges simply didn't match, even when they were allegedly the same caliber.

I have a .22 5 shot rifle years and years ago. The clip held 5 LR cartrdiges. To fire .22 shorts, you had to manually load them into the receiver.

There was anotgher .22 cartridge between them in length, it would mostly load from the clip, but you had to fire slowly.

I have a wonderful .22 Mossberg 346K-C that I wouldn't trade for anything. With it's tubular magazine it fires .22 short, long and long rifle with TOTAL reliability. It's a bolt action which is the way to go if you want to really learn to shoot.

Iron sights are good or with a good 3x scope you should be able to hit anything you can see.

 

[Reban]

Are there rules for 'diving' into as network like is done in the 'Ghost in the Shell' movies and anime episodes ? This movie came out in the 1990s.

Instead of hacking via keyboard, some in GitS jack in via a cable to the back of the skull/neck, and mentally travel into a network, write hacks in their minds, and then try them on the firewalls, etc. they find. Some firewalls have attack barriers that can fry the brain of the hacker.

From one or two episodes of the anime, some of the characters still use keyboards, but I get the impression it is considered 'old fashioned'.

Love GiTS. Essentially thats what T5 describes but there's very little expansion on the basic fact that it can be done. No messy leads or jacking in as the jack is wireless.

They way I see it. Diving or net running is just accessing an alternate environment for the PC, possibly with different physical rules to the "real" world. Hacking is different as its an aspect of programming and Traveller has a a Skill for that.

 

[aramis]

History channel documentary 'History of the Gun' with a very good expert. Mr. Hogg. He showed a number of pistols that Japan used in WW2, and the cartridges simply didn't match, even when they were allegedly the same caliber.

I have a .22 5 shot rifle years and years ago. The clip held 5 LR cartrdiges. To fire .22 shorts, you had to manually load them into the receiver.

There was anotgher .22 cartridge between them in length, it would mostly load from the clip, but you had to fire slowly.

I suppose I should note that to fire .22L in the Jennings, you had to carefully load it so that you didn't wind up with a lower round's rim in front of the upper one's. And there is a .22S adapter kit for the Jennings- lighter spring, different clip.

 

[Quint]

...How about a world with a government intolerant of outsiders?
A poor system that perhaps can't afford to put whatever is needed to be compliant in place. Heck, the Imperium left them with a class x star port, why would they subsidize a communication network...
Would a low tech system with a low class starport even have a world wide comm system? Telegraph?
"There are no roads where we're going" would a wheeled vehicle be viable on a high tech world with no roads?

I think is really a false argument, we're not talking about if a TL3 or TL5 or TL7 system has a "world wide comm system" that is compatible with a TL12 (or TL15 or whatever) computer or computer network - in some ways it certainly is not. Because otherwise they'd be a TL12 (or TL15) system.

And yes, the Telegraph was "the Victorian Internet"...

But unless we're talking about some sort of psionic thing I don't think you can "netrun" a Telegraph or along Radio waves nor would I suggest that you could.

But... all of that is utterly independent of the whatever network that the Imperium or Megacorporation has established for it's starport. It's might only work within bounds of the starport (or nearby) but again, assuming something past a E or even a D Starport, there are some pretty extensive facilities in place.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here, but it really doesn't seem to be what I'm trying to talk about.

D.

 

[Quint]

But many which will fit won't work right except in revolvers, single shot action types (dropping breach, break-breach, single shot bolt), due to lack of pressure to operate the action, and others won't work because they overpressure and jam.

Or they are old guns and they aren't built for modern gunpowder pressures - or they simply don't use Imperial units and instead of it being a .40 or even a 10mm "Medium Autopistol" that you can switch out the standardized Imperial barrels to account for that small difference in caliber (and change clips as well) its a .399 Tribblefurber round and you would have to buy a local pistol to use the local ammo...

Military history-wise, once we moved to mass-produced ammo and weapons there has been a slow drive towards standardized ammunition "for your people" and the more important "your people" are the more than "other people" are going to be willing to make things that interface well - not mention that the tolerances become increasingly tighter and the ability to "fudge things a bit" get harder and harder.

Given the granularity of the Traveller rules it really seems to be predicated on each weapon being relatively standardized - not that you couldn't populate YTU or even the OTO with all sorts of extra complications based on local conditions, but there seems to be an assumed default that if I buy Autopistol ammunition on a TL8, TL12, or even a TL16 planet they will all work in the Autopistol that you bought on a TL10 world.

D.

D.

 

[Quint]

God, please don't use CP2020 or Shadowrun for your hacking/netrunning. When Gibson first wrote his cyberpunk netrunning stuff it wasn't particularly good and even then it was lightyears more sensible than the rendered avatars having running gun battles with security software that those games transformed it into. Those systems might work ok in games designed around a lot of style over substance but don't really belong in the more 'hard science' realm of Traveller.

That is actually already what I'd decided, I love CP2020, and it even makes a decent SciFi engine as well, but I'm interested in embracing the more SciFi aspects of the setting rather than the Cyberpunk possibilities.

D.

 

[Quint]

After posting, my brain started to unlock and I remembered that there was on old issue of JTAS that had rules for a direct computer interface and that is certainly at least part of what I'm looking for.

(Now I just have to unearth the issue...)

Part of this taking the stance of going back to Proto-Traveller first to get my head out of CP2020 rules (and other systems) and the slowly fold in MT and T5 and MgT as needed to make sense of things. The recollection of that old JTAS article was enough to remind me that the ideas or the concepts aren't absolutely foreign to Traveller - just not the direction the game went in.

But part of what I'm looking for is the Ghost in the Shell or other more Cyberpunk feels to the "dive into the 'Net". What I liked about the TV show Intelligence was it gave a different look (and more Traveller-esque at first blush) to how a "connected" Netrunner would or could operate (esp. with the "cyber-render").

But I'll take a look at Eclipse Phase and see if that can be mined for some good ideas. Thanks!

D.

 

[mike wightman]

I used the first edition of Cyberpunk to run Traveller 2300 adventures without the cyberware.

As T2300 became more cybercised then Cyberpunk actually became even more useful, especially its space supplement.

Looking back GDW missed a trick to jump on the transhumainsm bandwagon while it was still in its embryonic stage.

If they had focussed a bit more on the provolutionists and the pentapods rather than go down the kafer war dead end it could have been a really great setting. Cybernetics, body augmentation, bioengineering, genetic manipulation...

Hmm...

 

[JimMarn]

I have a wonderful .22 Mossberg 346K-C that I wouldn't trade for anything. With it's tubular magazine it fires .22 short, long and long rifle with TOTAL reliability. It's a bolt action which is the way to go if you want to really learn to shoot.

Iron sights are good or with a good 3x scope you should be able to hit anything you can see.

One of my uncles had a 'Nylon '66' .22 rifle that loaded via tube. The stock was nylon. Rest was metal. He left it in the sun on hot Texas summer day, and the stock warped and bent the barrel just enough he gave it away. I don't remember the actual maker's name.