Darrian TL16 fleet

[McPerth]

About TL 16 ships advantages: MgT1e

We already told about this for MT, but what about MgT (I’ll only talk about 1e, as I’n not involved in 2e)?

According MgT1e:HG, there are several advantages for TL16 too, even while it does not specifically reach it:

• May be armored up to 16 points.
• More hull/structure points (at a cost) (page 52, the only true reference to TL16 I found)
• More powerful Spinals (mostly meson ones), as the ones with base TL12+ can use the increased TL table further (e.g., a B rated Spinal now needs only 600 dton, produces 420 hits and costs only MCr420, not a small improvement) (page 66)
• Jump drives 4+ can be slightly smaller (though its real effect is dubious), at an increased cost (page 54)

Of course, we can infer some more (core computer/10, better sensors weapons, etc.), but that would require rules for them to be written.

In any case, see that even if we accept the core computer 10, its effect would be quite lower than in CT/MT…

 

[McPerth]

I think I should have made the sarcasm explicit, I do not consider MgT 3I as OTU canon anymore than GT - they are both ATUs IMHO. MgT especially the early stuff suffers a lot from poor research, it is much better now.

Sorry, I took you seriously, as my answer post probably showed.

 

[Whipsnade]

I accept your numbers about 50 ships, though I don't know where you take it. Of those, about half of them where given to the colonies (3 per icolony) and mothballed, and the other half tried to keep contact for a few more years.

The ~50 number comes from the statement about each colony getting three ships each in -905. Once the ships were passed out, Darrian no longer made the effort to keep in contact with the colonies. The colonies could keep up whatever contact they wanted, but Darrian alone was no longer going to support that effort.

Maybe this will help you understand:

"In -905 all the Darrains colonies agreed that each would have to make it's own way.

Even in this case, two dozens of state of the art jump-capable ships (some of them not military) were forgotten in the outer system... Sorry, I cannot swallow it.

You can't swallow it because you don't yet understand it. For the third time now, it was not a case of there being no operable ships. In -905, Darrian gave away about fifty operable ships to the colonies. They had operable ships on hand.

Instead it was a case of the returns from maintaining regular contact no longer being worth effort. The ships were available. Operating them wasn't worth it. Darrian couldn't help the colonies and the colonies couldn't help Darrian. Keeping up contact wasn't worth the effort required.

They had ships but the ships had become a luxury they could no longer afford.

Do you understand now?

And about the "stopped two parsecs away" claim, I've yet to see a cite for that.

 

[McPerth]

The ~50 number comes from the statement about each colony getting three ships each in -905. Once the ships were passed out, Darrian no longer made the effort to keep in contact with the colonies. The colonies could keep up whatever contact they wanted, but Darrian alone was no longer going to support that effort.

Maybe this will help you understand:

"In -905 all the Darrains colonies agreed that each would have to make it's own way.

At 3 ships/colony, 50 ships would represent 16-17 colonies, and I personally don't believe they had so many of them not evacuated as lost (I guess any uninhabitable world would have been evacuated). but taht's arguable, as I cannot provide the number of colonies.

Even so, they tried to keep some contact until -860, when all contact ceased, so I assumed your 50 ships were 3/colony for 8-10 colonies and the rest of them being the ones that kept this sporadic contact for another 45 years, as the ones given to the colonies are specifically told to have been mothballed (see that if we believe TNE, ships can have such long operational lives without good maintenance while wear and tear is taking its toll).

You can't swallow it because you don't yet understand it. For the third time now, it was not a case of there being no operable ships. In -905, Darrian gave away about fifty operable ships to the colonies. They had operable ships on hand.

Instead it was a case of the returns from maintaining regular contact no longer being worth effort. The ships were available. Operating them wasn't worth it. Darrian couldn't help the colonies and the colonies couldn't help Darrian. Keeping up contact wasn't worth the effort required.

They had ships but the ships had become a luxury they could no longer afford.

Do you understand now?

Yes, I understand this, but, also for third time, if at this momento you still have two dozen of usable warships, do you mothball them at the outer fringes of your system or you mothball or salvage them?

See that I did not talk about keeping using them, but aboutr salvaging them and cannibalize usable parts or to strand them and use them as power plants (as a warlord did with a Los Angeles submarine in T2K, IIRC) and big computer facilities.

To talk only about the power plant (as the computer capacity effects are more difficult to evaluate), how many Mw can even a single destoryer give this way to your rebuilding attempts? How many a Cruiser? How much can be done with this power?

The only explanation that makes sense to me for this not occurring is that they did not know about those ships, having been forgotten about or assumed lost.

SDBs (and some support supplies and maybe even ships) in inactive reserve positions might be kept in outer system (though I agree other places would be more logical). It's a standard practice to do so, according several sources on usual strategies for SDBs to be so kept inactive im several positions in the system to defend (though, again, the outer fringes don't use to be among hte ones told about). And, being secret units, they can be forgotten about with the loss of computer files in the Maghiz.

But no one keeps in such inactive storing state of the art jump capable warships, as their missions are other ones.

That's what makes me think if they were so forgotten about, they could not be jump-capable ships, as all of them (or at least the state of the art ones) would be active when the Maghiz stuck, and either lost on it or used in the rebuilding attempts, and if so they would be wither lost to wear and tear, mothballed or salvaged/cannibalized (once the eforts were stopped in -905), but not forgotten stored in the outer fringes of the system,

 

[mike wightman]

Page 24 of the Darrians Alien module states three times that all of the relic TL16 ships are starships, not SDBs, not monitors, not battle riders:

Thus, survivability and endurance can be inferred to be two of the characteristics that Darrian tech level 16 starships have.
Probably fewer than two dozen Darrian tech level 16 starships survive today. The force is divided into two squadrons: one oriented toward the Sword Worlds subsector; the other oriented toward potential Zhodani threats toward the core and spinward. Some naval analysts have postulated that a third squadron is in a deep reserve position, or oriented toward the Imperium, or used to equip elements of the Darrian Special Arm.
In addition, a small percentage of surviving Darrian tech level 16 starships were not originally of military design. At least four are reported to be merchant ships to which tech level 14 weaponry has been added. The implication is clear that tech level 16 ships have qualities that justify such a conversion, while such a conversion at tech level 15 or 14 would be inefficient at best.

So there you have it - fewer than two dozen relic TL16 starships and that's the lot.

The map on page 11 allows you to count exactly how many settlements/colony worlds the Darrians had at the time of the Maghiz...

 

[Whipsnade]

At 3 ships/colony, 50 ships would represent 16-17 colonies, and I personally don't believe they had so many of them not evacuated as lost...

Neither do I. The ~50 number was a deliberate over-estimate.

Look at the Maghiz map in AM:8. Every named system is supposed to have a settlement on it. Not a colony, mind you, but a settlement. I deliberately over estimated of numbers of colonies to come up with the large number of ships because I knew the Usual Suspects would start whining if the number was too low. The reason they'd start whining would be because the number ships shared out ion -905 helps us estimate the number of ships Darrian started with before the Maghiz.

I over-estimated the colonies to come up with ~50 ships which in turn suggested the pre-Maghiz Darrian had ~200 ships.

... kept this sporadic contact for another 45 years...

There is nothing about "sporadic contact" for "45 years" in canon. Nothing. Hans sneaked a single ship rescue mission in G:Sword Worlds which occurred ~900 as a way to try and clear up the mystery of the Aslan presence on Mithril from CT. Despite that, even Hans never suggested sporadic contact for 50 years after -905.

Yes, I understand this...

No, you don't. You don't because you still haven't examined the consequences of you idea.

... or salvage them?

And this is a perfect example of not examining the consequences of an idea.

Salvage them? Tell us, salvage them for what purpose? For use as power plants? As computers? Spare parts? Do you seriously think parts in a starship's power plant or computer are interchangeable with the the power plants and computers civilians use? As someone who has built nuclear subs and nuclear power plants, let me assure you that your assumptions are wrong.

Your infrastructure is gone, you've got little or no transport left, the electrical grid is slagged, the only cities that aren't tombs are under the polar ice cap, and the climate has gone to hell. Ships and the parts from ships aren't going to help change any of that.

Ask yourself this; If cannibalizing ships would help, why did Darrian give away three to each colony instead of salvaging them?

You're pimping this SDB-Rider-Tender idea because you can't understand why those ships weren't salvaged. What you actually don't understand is that those ships weren't worth salvaging in -905.

That's what makes me think if they were so forgotten about...

They weren't forgotten. They were discounted because they and their parts met no immediate need.

It was time for triage, not fantasies.

 

[McPerth]

Page 24 of the Darrians Alien module states three times that all of the relic TL16 ships are starships, not SDBs, not monitors, not battle riders:


So there you have it - fewer than two dozen relic TL16 starships and that's the lot....

Again, the fact they are referred as starships may just mean that they are (as a group) jump capable, not necessarly each of them individually.

I'm amazed how you (and not only specifically you, but a more generic one) sometimes tell about wheels inside wheels, and about this being just Imperial visióo, not necessarly the exact truth, and then are so punctilious about the exact wording...

And also in the same page:

The Darrian Navy is built arround a core of TL 16 warships

So, as it does not specify if they are jump capable or not, we know less than two dozen TL16 starships remain (some of them not warships), but we don't know if also non jump capable warships (and if so how many) also remain. Those "less tan two dozen starships" could be all tenders whose BRs are not counted among them because they are not starships (not that I believe that, but following just the letter of the text, we cannot rule this out).

And, of course, IN BRs cannot be served in the Imperial Depots, as MT:RS, page 33 (the more detailed explanation about IN Depots I know about) clearly says:

Naval depots are huge harboring areas for starships, naval personnel and supporting services (...)

A major focus for each naval depot is the maintenance of navy's starships(...)

providing in-depth training for all aspects of starship technology (...)

to tactical training in the use of starship weaponry

So, again, do you really believe that?

The map on page 11 allows you to count exactly how many settlements/colony worlds the Darrians had at the time of the Maghiz...

True, but we don't know how many of them were evacuated. See that otherwise, when the Sword Worlds were colonized they' d find already inhabitated by Darrian survivors several of their planets.

Also, see that in this map, if we assume it to be from pre-Maghiz era, there are quite a lot of A and B, and Gram and Mirre are already HiPop worlds.

Quite developed for such young colonies...

 

[mike wightman]

Every TL16 warship is a starship it says so explicitly, there is no confusion,obfuscation or misinformation - we are told three times that every relic TL16 Darrian warship is a starship.

It is never hinted, intimated or suggested that the warships are anything but starships - they are not SDBs, they are not riders and they are not monitors.

How am I so certain - because it says so three times in black and white.

As to your confusion about IN bases and depots you are missing this bit:

NAVAL BASES
A naval base has several distinct parts to it; each helps achieve the general purpose of naval harbor. The berthing area is generally a series of orbit patterns which large naval vessels
are placed into when not in need of any sort of major repair. Smaller craft also use
these orbits when not wishing to land as part of their stop.

So there is the first clarification, an IN base can handle large naval vessels - these could be monitors, cruisers, riders, battleships - anything.
Smaller craft includes everything from fighters to anything smaller than a large naval vessel.

Now let's move on to depots since we have proved an IN base can handle any type of IN vessel.

NAVAL DEPOTS
Distinct from the naval base system is the naval depot. Comparatively few in number, these depots serves as focusses for naval efforts, supplying entire fleets,…
Facilities and personnel exist at the level where they may handle large fractions of the fleet at any one time for repair and resupply

Fleet means every space ship, starship and small craft that is in the fleet.

The reality is the authors chose to use the word ship in this case because it can mean either starship or spaceship in the context of the fluff in S9.

The Darrian alien module specifically states that the relic TL16 ships, warships call them what you will are starships.

 

[McPerth]

Neither do I. The ~50 number was a deliberate over-estimate.

Look at the Maghiz map in AM:8. Every named system is supposed to have a settlement on it. Not a colony, mind you, but a settlement. I deliberately over estimated of numbers of colonies to come up with the large number of ships because I knew the Usual Suspects would start whining if the number was too low. The reason they'd start whining would be because the number ships shared out ion -905 helps us estimate the number of ships Darrian started with before the Maghiz.

I over-estimated the colonies to come up with ~50 ships which in turn suggested the pre-Maghiz Darrian had ~200 ships.

I was not discussing the numbers, but if after 20 years of badly maintaining its fleet they still ahd 50 operational ones, I guess their pre-Maghiz fleet was quite larger than 200...

There is nothing about "sporadic contact" for "45 years" in canon. Nothing. Hans sneaked a single ship rescue mission in G:Sword Worlds which occurred ~900 as a way to try and clear up the mystery of the Aslan presence on Mithril from CT. Despite that, even Hans never suggested sporadic contact for 50 years after -905.

AM8 page 12:

Although each world agreed to try to maintain contact about every ten years all contact between the worlds seased in -860

So, it clearly states that any contact was sporadic (unless my english is fawlty and every 10 years is not sporadic), and that this contact ceased in -860. So, unless I failed in subrtracting 860 from 905, this sporadic contact was kept for 45 years. Hans (God have him) may have ignored it, or not considered relevant for his writing, I don't know.

Or you consider AM8 non canon source?

No, you don't. You don't because you still haven't examined the consequences of you idea.

ANd I asked you to tell me the consequences of my Idea (so how would it break canon).

And this is a perfect example of not examining the consequences of an idea.

Salvage them? Tell us, salvage them for what purpose? For use as power plants? As computers? Spare parts? Do you seriously think parts in a starship's power plant or computer are interchangeable with the the power plants and computers civilians use? As someone who has built nuclear subs and nuclear power plants, let me assure you that your assumptions are wrong.

Your infrastructure is gone, you've got little or no transport left, the electrical grid is slagged, the only cities that aren't tombs are under the polar ice cap, and the climate has gone to hell. Ships and the parts from ships aren't going to help change any of that.

I guess you have not read "The last boomer" T2K adventure, and so have not caught my reference...

Probably you're right the power plants as such could not be removed, but

• The ship could be stranded and wired to give power to whatever remained (that happens with the sub in T2K)
• Those ships surely carried some kind of subcrafts ery useful in rescue opperations, and they would need power
• The sick bay in any such a ship would surely have been seen as a hi tech hospital, once the ship was stranded...
• Surely many more ways I have not just thouhgt about in a few minutes

Ask yourself this; If cannibalizing ships would help, why did Darrian give away three to each colony instead of salvaging them?.

It's explained also in page 12 AM8; against any future needs. And I guess this included reverse engineering them if ever posible (as it was in Mirre centuries after).

You're pimping this SDB-Rider-Tender idea because you can't understand why those ships weren't salvaged. What you actually don't understand is that those ships weren't worth salvaging in -905.

They weren't forgotten. They were discounted because they and their parts met no immediate need.

It was time for triage, not fantasies.

No, I come to the SDB/monitor/rider conclusión because I cannot understand how could two dozen jump capable ships be forgotten.

Even if they were not worth salvaging in -905, sure some records of them would have been kept otherwise, and not discovered by chance centuries after.

And in triage time, you don't throw again anything that can have (even remotely) a use, even as raw metals.

Think on Robinson Crusoe and how he recovers everything he can of the wreckage, even if he sees no immediate use for it.

Some things that needed to be moved could not be worth doing so, but ships that could move on their own, surely were.

 

[McPerth]

Every TL16 warship is a starship it says so explicitly, there is no confusion,obfuscation or misinformation - we are told three times that every relic TL16 Darrian warship is a starship.

It is never hinted, intimated or suggested that the warships are anything but starships - they are not SDBs, they are not riders and they are not monitors.

How am I so certain - because it says so three times in black and white.

The Darrian alien module specifically states that the relic TL16 ships, warships call them what you will are starships.

Exactly in which paragraph it rules out the monitors/SDBs?

Yes, it talks sometimes about warships (not specifying if they are jump capable or not) and others as starships (not specifying if they are military or not), but where does it say that all TL16 warships are Starships?

As to your confusion about IN bases and depots you are missing this bit:


So there is the first clarification, an IN base can handle large naval vessels - these could be monitors, cruisers, riders, battleships - anything.
Smaller craft includes everything from fighters to anything smaller than a large naval vessel..

I have no such confusion, I know all kinds of vessels are served both in IN bases and Depots. I'm just trying to show you that language is not always as exact as you assume.

Now let's move on to depots since we have proved an IN base can handle any type of IN vessel.
Fleet means every space ship, starship and small craft that is in the fleet.

The reality is the authors chose to use the word ship in this case because it can mean either starship or spaceship in the context of the fluff in S9.

And yet, in the part of the whole Traveller that AFAIK the Depots are better described (MT:RS) it clarly specifes Starships. And not three times as you say before, but four times.

Contradicotry canonical information, it still surprises you?

Or it's easier to assume most people talks about starships if they are not fixed defenses (SDBs included) and are jump capable, even as a group?

 

[mike wightman]

In the paragraph I have now quoted in its almost entirety - it states three times the relic TL16 warships are starships.

Monitors and SDBs are not starships.

Since all the warships are described as starships they can not be monitors, SDBs or riders.

Or it's easier to assume most people talks about starships if they are not fixed defenses (SDBs included) and are jump capable, even as a group?

No it is easier to assume that when people are talking about starships they mean only those vessels that can jump under their own power using their own jump drive - the way it has been since LBB:2.

An SDB with a jump sled is not a starship - the jump sled is the starship, the SDB is a carried craft. A battlerider docked to its tender can be carried through jump, but lacking its own jump drive is not described as a starship. A monitor hitchng a ride on a transport or tender is similarly just cargo...

And don't get me started on the mess DGP made of ships in MT - my guess is none of them bothered with CT ships much since they made such an unholy mess of ship design and combat, not to mention they obviously never read FFW or S:9.

 

[Whipsnade]

unless my english is fawlty...

Your English is faulty because you overlooked the word TRY in the passage you quoted. There's nothing suggesting contact was regular. They only tried to make it regular. The last time they tried was -860. They weren't flying a once a decade bus line before that.

Or you consider AM8 non canon source?

No, I consider your inferences faulty.

I guess you have not read "The last boomer" T2K adventure, and so have not caught my reference...

I'm aware of the module for the role-playing game. I also happen to have BUILT AND REPAIRED THE REAL THING. Your suppositions regarding the use of spare parts between subs and power plants are dead wrong. While a nuclear sub has acted as a temporary power plant in the past, that sub required parts, supplies, and fungibles none of which will be available on Darrian for a starship acting in the same role.

[*]The ship could be stranded and wired to give power to whatever remained (that happens with the sub in T2K)

That fictional event and the real world one which suggested required a shore side power electrical distribution network. Darrian is unlikely to have one.

[*]Those ships surely carried some kind of subcrafts ery useful in rescue opperations, and they would need power

Rescue operations? You can't be serious. The Maghiz is twenty years ago. Everyone who needed to be rescued was either rescued or died two decades ago.

[*]The sick bay in any such a ship would surely have been seen as a hi tech hospital, once the ship was stranded...

A high tech hospital which requires high tech supplies. Once the stock of TL16 "band-aids" runs out, how useful is you high tech hospital then?

[*]Surely many more ways I have not just thouhgt about in a few minutes

Don't bother thinking about any more examples. You're simply making stuff up now. You're not even taking time to examine your own "ideas".

It's explained also in page 12 AM8; against any future needs. And I guess this included reverse engineering them if ever posible (as it was in Mirre centuries after)

I don't think Darrian retreated from space with the idea that it wouldn't return for centuries or that Mire would return before it did.

No, I come to the SDB/monitor/rider conclusión because I cannot understand how could two dozen jump capable ships be forgotten.

Not immediately forgotten, merely discounted instead. They didn't provide any immediate utility in -905 so they were left alone. Then, over the ensuing centuries, they were forgotten.

As for you being unable to understand, I'm starting to understand why you can't understand.

Think on Robinson Crusoe...

Good Sweet Strephon... Robinson Crusoe... A TL3 castaway salvaging bits and pieces of a wooden sailing ship and building huts is somehow comparable to Darrian salvaging TL16 warships...

Cash me out. I'm done.

 

[Whipsnade]

In the paragraph I have now quoted in its almost entirety - it states three times the relic TL16 warships are starships.

Monitors and SDBs are not starships.

Since all the warships are described as starships they can not be monitors, SDBs or riders.

Don't bother, Mike. He won't listen and he won't understand.

It's time to let this one drop.

 

[McPerth]

Your English is faulty because you overlooked the word TRY in the passage you quoted. There's nothing suggesting contact was regular. They only tried to make it regular. The last time they tried was -860. They weren't flying a once a decade bus line before that.

As you don't want to keep the discussion, just one language question: isn't sporadic opposite to regular?

I ask because I told about sporadic contact, and you refuse to believe it because there was no regular contact.

 

[McPerth]

In the paragraph I have now quoted in its almost entirety - it states three times the relic TL16 warships are starships.

Monitors and SDBs are not starships.

Since all the warships are described as starships they can not be monitors, SDBs or riders.

And in tue one I quoted about Depots it's stated 4 times that they serve starships, and we agree that does not rule out them servicing other kinds of vessels...

No it is easier to assume that when people are talking about starships they mean only those vessels that can jump under their own power using their own jump drive - the way it has been since LBB:2.

An SDB with a jump sled is not a starship - the jump sled is the starship, the SDB is a carried craft. A battlerider docked to its tender can be carried through jump, but lacking its own jump drive is not described as a starship. A monitor hitchng a ride on a transport or tender is similarly just cargo...

So:

• when you hear about the English troops in Waterloo you discard the Duch, Hannoverian, and even the Scottish, Whelsh or Irish soldiers there...
• when you hear "we the Americans" you understand all people from Canada to Tierra de Fuego...
• when you hear "cars cannot reach there due to road conditions" you understands lorries and vans can...
• etc.

Or you accept people does not always use the strictly correct term?

 

[McPerth]

I'm aware of the module for the role-playing game. I also happen to have BUILT AND REPAIRED THE REAL THING. Your suppositions regarding the use of spare parts between subs and power plants are dead wrong. While a nuclear sub has acted as a temporary power plant in the past, that sub required parts, supplies, and fungibles none of which will be available on Darrian for a starship acting in the same role.

And yet, at least for spare parts, they had them several centuries after that even to keeep them opperative several centuries more without being able to manufacture them...

That fictional event and the real world one which suggested required a shore side power electrical distribution network. Darrian is unlikely to have one.

Of course in the 20 years you claim yourself they have rebuilt none...

Rescue operations? You can't be serious. The Maghiz is twenty years ago. Everyone who needed to be rescued was either rescued or died two decades ago.

THe fact rescue opperations could have ended 20 years after the Maghiz (I was not talking only about this moment), sure those subcrafts and grav vehicles would be useful...

A high tech hospital which requires high tech supplies. Once the stock of TL16 "band-aids" runs out, how useful is you high tech hospital then?

I will not discuss you about the Power Plant operations, as I don't know a dime about modern ones, so less about future ones, but I know something about hospitals (and about triage, BTW), and you can be sure that, even if you have to ressort to primitive drugs, high tech hospital equipment can be quite useful in many other ways.

I don't think Darrian retreated from space with the idea that it wouldn't return for centuries or that Mire would return before it did.

Another reason to keep good record of any available hull...

Not immediately forgotten, merely discounted instead. They didn't provide any immediate utility in -905 so they were left alone. Then, over the ensuing centuries, they were forgotten.

And, accepting this, why did they send them to such a remote outer fring of the system location where they were found latter?

Good Sweet Strephon... Robinson Crusoe... A TL3 castaway salvaging bits and pieces of a wooden sailing ship and building huts is somehow comparable to Darrian salvaging TL16 warships...

As an example that in such desesperate situations you store everything that has even the remotest possibility of being useful, yes, comparable

Cash me out. I'm done.

As you wish, of course. In an ycase a breack would probably be good for everyone, as I agree we're circling without moving an inch...

 

[mike wightman]

And in tue one I quoted about Depots it's stated 4 times that they serve starships, and we agree that does not rule out them servicing other kinds of vessels...

I have looked up the MT RSB depot entry - it is absurdly badly written.
If you have no knowledge of Traveller naval terms or the definitions in previous works then yes, the depot article says the depots only handle starships.

• when you hear about the English troops in Waterloo you discard the Duch, Hannoverian, and even the Scottish, Whelsh or Irish soldiers there...
• when you hear "we the Americans" you understand all people from Canada to Tierra de Fuego...
• when you hear "cars cannot reach there due to road conditions" you understands lorries and vans can...
• etc.

1 - If I am referencing the allied armies at Waterloo then I use the term allied armies, otherwise I mention the British regiments - a catch all for English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish - the Dutch, the Prussians...
2 - when I hear 'we the Americans' I need more context - who is speaking, to what audience, I equate American with USA, the Americas with everything from Alaska to Argentina, Canadian for Canada etc
3 - again it depends on context, if it is a blocked road then the announcement probably refers to all motor transport, but there are occasions where cars may be prevented but lorries and buses and the like expedited to still travel the road

Or you accept people does not always use the strictly correct term?

Yes, people often use the incorrect term because context and experience allows for understanding.

A competent author does not make such mistakes, they write for clarity and understanding unless it is a deliberate literary contrivance in order to achieve a particular effect. I'm quite happy to accuse the MT authors of the depots article in MT RSB of incompetent writing, they do not explain the terms they use and are relying on the audience to have quite a comprehensive background in Traveller, or at the very least to have fully digested the three core books of MT.
Are you accusing the GDW author of AM:8 as being an incompetent authors for actually explaining the terms they use?

They show clearly with examples that in the context of the Darrian relic TL16 fleet assets that warships = starships = ships.

The Darrian Alien Module clearly states something that you refuse to accept, there is no ambiguity. The author of AM:8 clearly makes it explicit that every relic TL16 ship is a starship, and that logically has to include the warships and civilian craft converted to military use.
If you can not accept the clear evidence of what is written then there is little point in further discussion on the subject since we are going around in circles. I don't mean that in a bad way, this has been an interesting thread and discussion, I have got a lot out of it - including an new conspiracy theory for MTU

 

[aramis]

As you don't want to keep the discussion, just one language question: isn't sporadic opposite to regular?

Yes, it is. But it's not a high-use word, so it would be unsurprising that any given US denizen might not comprehend it.

 

[Whipsnade]

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't. It's the opposite of periodic. Contact every ten years would have been periodic, not sporadic. Sporadic means there no schedule, that it's irregular, and not that it's attempted every ten years.

But it's not a high-use word, so it would be unsurprising that any given US denizen might not comprehend it.

Nice try.

 

[McPerth]

I have looked up the MT RSB depot entry - it is absurdly badly written.

If you have no knowledge of Traveller naval terms or the definitions in previous works then yes, the depot article says the depots only handle starships.

I'm quite happy to accuse the MT authors of the depots article in MT RSB of incompetent writing, they do not explain the terms they use and are relying on the audience to have quite a comprehensive background in Traveller, or at the very least to have fully digested the three core books of MT.

I agree, and i must state this is a quite common flawl of MT: they assumed anyone playing it had previous kowledge of Traveller and its background.

1 - If I am referencing the allied armies at Waterloo then I use the term allied armies, otherwise I mention the British regiments - a catch all for English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish - the Dutch, the Prussians...
2 - when I hear 'we the Americans' I need more context - who is speaking, to what audience, I equate American with USA, the Americas with everything from Alaska to Argentina, Canadian for Canada etc
3 - again it depends on context, if it is a blocked road then the announcement probably refers to all motor transport, but there are occasions where cars may be prevented but lorries and buses and the like expedited to still travel the road

Yes, people often use the incorrect term because context and experience allows for understanding.

(...)

A competent author does not make such mistakes, they write for clarity and understanding unless it is a deliberate literary contrivance in order to achieve a particular effect.

1: see that allied armies included the Prussians, and others under Blücher command, while the British are what you say, but Wellesley army also included Dutch and Hannoverians (and IIRC other Germans) that, while not British troops, fought under their command.

But this is anecdotic and only intended as an example, out of the main issue...

I use to try avoid such mistakes and to use the most precise word to avoid those misunderstandings (though, mostly in English, not being a native language to me, it's quite posible I'm not alwaqys succesful), but those generalizations or use of inexact words are quite common

Are you accusing the GDW author of AM:8 as being an incompetent authors for actually explaining the terms they use?

I'm not accusing them for anything, I like AM8 (and most AMs), and consider them good books (as are MT AMs) but, as you and Whipsnade many times say, the CT:AMs are from an imperial view, and the wheels inside wheels may make them inexact.

As an aside, MT:AMs (at least as I see them) are more from the race POV, and that makes them a good complement (more than overriding) to CT:AMs. Unfortunately, MT did not last enough for the Darrians to be in any of their AMs (I guess they were plannes, but I cannot know for sure). But I desgress again...

In this specific case, I guess (maybe a whishful guessing, I admit) the lack of detail about this fleet is intentional, allowing each referee to adapt this fleet to his own tastes/needs, within some general guidelines (no more than 20 warships and 4 non-warships)

They show clearly with examples that in the context of the Darrian relic TL16 fleet assets that warships = starships = ships.

The Darrian Alien Module clearly states something that you refuse to accept, there is no ambiguity. The author of AM:8 clearly makes it explicit that every relic TL16 ship is a starship, and that logically has to include the warships and civilian craft converted to military use.

If you can not accept the clear evidence of what is written then there is little point in further discussion on the subject since we are going around in circles.

Precisey what they don't show are examples (at least in AM8), and that's why I see it as intentional.

As said, what you say as no ambiguity I see as quite ambiguaous, if the main reasoning is the use of the specific word starship.

As I also said, my main point is my dificulty to understand how such a valuable fleet could end up in storage in the outer fringes of the system, and I find it more "credible" (for lack of better Word, as I refuse tto use he word logical here, as the positioning is not much so) a hidden reserve SDBs unit than jump capable ships.

Another point would be that if SDBs, they could be kept in low stations when not needed (peace times), avoiding tear and wear, while the ships used as tanders could well be lower TLs, and so replaceable, so lenghtening (I guess, I'm not engineer) their useful life.

But, in any case, as I said in post #4, when I presented this thesis:

My conclusion (one of many posibles, not supported by published materials to my knowledge)

Let me remark the unbolded part part of the sentence.

I don't mean that in a bad way, this has been an interesting thread and discussion, I have got a lot out of it - including an new conspiracy theory for MTU

Fully agreed, and I'm glad it may help in your play.

No, it isn't. It's the opposite of periodic. Contact every ten years would have been periodic, not sporadic. Sporadic means there no schedule, that it's irregular, and not that it's attempted every ten years.

OK, I acept it, and so I restate my previous post where I said they kept sporadic (so irregular, non periodic and unsheduled, despite the initial intent) contact until -860, when all contact ceased.