Darrian TL16 fleet

[AnotherDilbert]

So when they describe worlds as 'a few Zhodani worlds' they mean the minor human races that inhabit what are now Zhodani worlds in 1105+, back then they were not Zhodani worlds since the Zhodani wouldn't expand into the Marches for centuries (IY 500ish). Note they do not name these Zhodani worlds since they are not Imperial...

Are you sure?

By AM4 the Consulate reached its current size (I guess approximately?) by -1000.

The Consulate came into solid contact with the 3I when the 3I expanded into the Spinward Marches, presumably the Consulate was already in the Marches by then?

 

[mike wightman]

-1000 is 500 years after the Terrans contact with the Darrians in -1511

I think you posted before my edit - I put the IY 500 bit in while I checked the dates, I knew there was about a 500 year gap.

Even when the Zhodani moved into the Marches they did so with very sparse settlements.

Some interesting conflicts in canon:

By 500, the newly settled areas were adjacent to territories being settled by the Zhodani Consulate in the Cronor subsector. By 550, the two empires had intermingled their settlements, in some cases sharing systems, in others holding neighboring worlds. The differences between the lmperium and the Zhodani heightened tensions, bringing the two sides into conflict, and eventually open warfare.

LD:N-Z

The original settlements in Tloql (the Spinward Marches) were minor, and were driven out by lmperial expansion between 200 and 500.

AM:Z

The maps in SMC show that on the eve of the 1stFW in 589 the Zhodani only had two worlds in the Spinward Marches, Zeycude and Errere and even those two could be unaligned rather than Zhodani.

 

[Whipsnade]

You are simply inventing facts...

No. I'm using all the facts across all of canon.

I told you to both read the text and look at the maps in SMC. There is no Consulate border in the Marches prior to 604. There may have been a few worlds hosting Zhodani patrol bases, but there were no worlds within the Consulate. The Consulate reached it's present size circa ~1000 IE or about 500 years before the Itzin Fleet's voyage and it's official border wasn't near the Marches yet.

Of course you can if you want to. It's just a month or two away.

As I wrote, you can with logistical support but why would you want to? That's other part of your assertions you've consistently failed to examine. If they even knew about the Darrians, why would the Zhodani or Vargr make such an effort to attack them?

You are inventing facts again: "Many worlds of the Spinward Marches had indigenous life forms; significantly fewer (Darrian, Algine, Vanejen, a few Zhodani worlds) had human populations. "

I've explained to you twice now how and for what purpose the Zhodani were in the Marches, but there's something else you also need to think about.

Knowing what we do about the Zhodani and why they're in the Marches, do you believe it's plausible that a fleet of 35 transports and 10 armed escorts belonging to a group of unknown humans could make contact with a Zhodani occupied world and then jump away without the Zhodani making no effort for several centuries to discover who they are and where they went? Is that plausible to you?

The Itzin Fleet did not make contact with the Zhodani because the Zhodani would not have let them "disappear" for centuries. The Itzin Fleet did not make contact with the Zhodani because the Darrians didn't meet the Zhodani until -187. The Darrians also distrust the Zhodani because they learned that the Zho had known about the "devastated" Darrian worlds for a couple centuries but chose not to make contact. If the Darrians are angry about not being helped, don't you think don't you think they would have sent a ship asking the Zhodani for help if they knew the Zhodani existed when the Maghiz occurred?

When you make a claim like your did about the Itzin Fleet contacting the Zhodani, you need to examine the consequences which will plausibly result from that claim. The Itzin Fleet did not contact any Zhodani because neither the Zhodani or the Darrians later act in manner which would indicate that such contact occurred. Understand?

Yes, you make WAGs based on a few fact you have invented yourself.

No. I'm making plausible guesses based on facts in canon. I'm also making guesses whose consequences jibe with later actions in canon. That's part of what plausible means.

Other people make other guesses. That does not make them laughable or frantic tap dancing or whatever colourful idioms you use.

Some other people make other plausible guesses, some other people make other implausible guesses, and some other people just make stuff up because it sounds cool. When you read MgT's Darrian book, you'll understand what I'm saying about making stuff because it sounds cool.

You are inventing facts again: I have not taken any position on what the surviving Darrian warships might be.

Which, of course, is why you wrote: "With large interstellar powers close by only an idiot would not at least experiment with real weapons. Riders are the cheapest way to do that. The Darrians might very well have built some." suggesting that the Darrians built spinal-armed riders if only as experiments.

You simply ignore a major step here.

No I didn't. I'm just more aware of the facts in canon which deal with maintenance and similar issues and the plausible consequences of the same.

Given that no new parts can be manufactured, how fast do you think the existing stocks will run out? Or were all those stocks lost? Also, what percentage of yearly ship losses do you think are plausible across 20 years? Was there some sort of "ship half-life"? Did the Darrians have to cannibalize one ship each year to keep one ship flying? Or could they keep 2, 3, or more ships maintained for a few years by cannibalizing one ship?

What are your numbers? Can you try to explain them as I tried to explain mine? Are the consequences of your numbers plausible? Did the Darrians have 500, a 1000, or even more ships before losing half? If so, why were 250, 500, or more of them in the Darrian system when the Maghiz occurred?

Would you like to come up with a plausible guess whose consequences fit later events in canon?

 

[Whipsnade]

So when they describe worlds as 'a few Zhodani worlds' they mean the minor human races that inhabit what are now Zhodani worlds in 1105+, back then they were not Zhodani worlds since the Zhodani wouldn't expand into the Marches for centuries (500ish from the time the Terrans contacted the Darrians). Note they do not name these Zhodani worlds since they are not Imperial...

Bingo. Also, the Imperium didn't first come into conflict with Consulate in the Marches. All the shoving and shouting started in Foreven and Ziafrplains sectors. The Consulate "evicted" Imperial settlements in those two sectors first and then followed up it's actions there by doing the same in the spinward/coreward "corner" of the Marches.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

-1000 is 500 years after the Terrans contact with the Darrians in -1511

And 1500 years before you said the Zho expanded into the Marches.

The Zho were certainly in the neighbourhood since they contacted the Vargr in Gvurrdon about -2800 and traded with the Vilani a few sectors trailing in -2000.

I can't find any firm date for Zho colonisation in the Marches.

 

[McPerth]

Are you sure?

By AM4 the Consulate reached its current size (I guess approximately?) by -1000.

The Consulate came into solid contact with the 3I when the 3I expanded into the Spinward Marches, presumably the Consulate was already in the Marches by then?

(and other posts about the matter)

Please, reread AM8 page 12, as you both are partially right:

Meeting with the Zhodani: The Zhodani where present in the Spinward Marches long before any other settlers. They established a toehold in Chornor subsector arround -2500 (...) It was just chande that Darrian surveys did not reach far enoughto touch de hZhodani border, and no Zhodani expeditions touched Darrian space between -1521 and -920

So, yes, the Zhodani where in Chornor when Darrian reached space travel, but no, they did not discover nor contact each other.

So, the Zhodani were not among the threads they might tink about, but others (Vargr, other ROM or Vilani fugitives) were, albeit prbably seen as far ones at most.

 

[Whipsnade]

I can't find any firm date for Zho colonisation in the Marches.

Look in SMC and S:11. The former has the maps and the latter provides more detail in it's essay on the history of the Marches.

The maps show no worlds which are officially part of the Consulate in 589 and eight worlds which are officially part of the Consulate in 604.

The essay explains that the Consulate and Imperium were placing settlements in territories adjacent to each other in the Cronor subsector and in some cases even sharing worlds. This "interpenetration" led to tensions, then squabbles, then incidents, and finally war. The Zhodani are said to have "... quickly expelled Imperial settlements from Zhodani territories beyond Spinward Marches Sector boundaries."

 

[Whipsnade]

Please, reread AM8 page 12, as you both are partially right...

It's not a matter of "partially right" because certain threats do exist. It's a more matter of emphasis and how the Darrians will plausibly react to what they know and what they can assume.

It's some suggesting the Darrians will build a battle fleet because they fear an enemy invasion force can arrive tomorrow and others suggesting they'll build armed multi-role ships backed by a few dedicated warships because they believe any known threats are either small, of a low probability, or a sector or more away.

 

[mike wightman]

And 1500 years before you said the Zho expanded into the Marches.

Go back and read my post and subsequent posts - there is confusion because I pressed post before I had checked the dates.

I can't find any firm date for Zho colonisation in the Marches.

MT Imperial Encyclopedia:

-1511/ AD 3007 Solomani Traders contact Darrians
-1000/ AD 3518 Zhodani consulate reaches current size (note that this is misleading since the Zhodani have very little presence in the SM until they start winning frontier Wars)
-924/ AD 3594 Darrian Sun destabilizes
50/ AD 4568 First Zhodani contact with Imperial traders
148/ AD 4666 IISS recontacts Darrians (this should be contact since the Imperium has made no contact with the Darrians prior to this)
500/ AD 5018 Imperial explorations into Zhodani territory
589 eve of 1st FW Zhodani potentially have two worlds in the Spinward Marches depending on how you read the map.

 

[Whipsnade]

148/ AD 4666 IISS recontacts Darrians (this should be contact since the Imperium has made no contact with the Darrians prior to this)

That date used to drive Hans insane for several reasons, not the least of which was the JTAS article says one thing and Don's Integrated Timeline says another!

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I told you to both read the text and look at the maps in SMC. There is no Consulate border in the Marches prior to 604.

There are no maps for ~-500. The map for the late fifth century is not clearly labeled, there are enclaves here and there. E.g. Who owns Mizan-fel, Asmodeus, and Sansibar? Who owns Errere?

The Zhodani were present in the Spinward Marches long before any other settlers. They established a toehold in Chronor subsector around -2,500, and that region became the trailing border of the Zhodani Consulate.

So despite the Darrian module specifically state that the Zho were present in the Marches a thousand years before the Itzin fleet, they could not possibly have been in the Marches?

As I wrote, you can with logistical support but why would you want to?

So now the Zho can attack, but the Darrian should trust that the Zho would not want to under any circumstances?

How did the Zho build a major interstellar Empire? Who is the aggressor in most of the frontier wars? Is the Human race in general known for its pacifism and refusal to settle differences with violence?

Knowing what we do about the Zhodani and why they're in the Marches, do you believe it's plausible that a fleet of 35 transports and 10 armed escorts belonging to a group of unknown humans could make contact with a Zhodani occupied world and then jump away without the Zhodani making no effort for several centuries to discover who they are and where they went? Is that plausible to you?

You are inventing facts again. No-one said anything about contact. The Itzin fleet discovered Zho worlds. They may or may not have contacted them.

Are you saying that the Itzin fleet was the first Imperial ships in the region? The Rule of Man never sent any expeditions to scout a major interstellar power they knew about?

We don't know, do we?

No. I'm making plausible guesses based on facts in canon. I'm also making guesses whose consequences jibe with later actions in canon. That's part of what plausible means.

I'm glad we agree you make guesses.

You make what you believe are plausible guesses based on what you (probably mistakenly) believe is canon, then state them as facts and belittle any other guesses. I find such "frantic tap dancing" "laughable", wasn't that what you said?

Which, of course, is why you wrote: "With large interstellar powers close by only an idiot would not at least experiment with real weapons. Riders are the cheapest way to do that. The Darrians might very well have built some." suggesting that the Darrians built spinal-armed riders if only as experiments.

Yes, I said they might have built some, I did not say they certainly had built them. You claimed that the very possibility of Tender/Riders was laughable, I merely disagreed with your certainty.

No I didn't. I'm just more aware of the facts in canon which deal with maintenance and similar issues and the plausible consequences of the same.

So you know not just a lot about starship maintenance, but also exactly what I know about starship maintenance? Yea, right...

Given that no new parts can be manufactured, how fast do you think the existing stocks will run out? Or were all those stocks lost? Also, what percentage of yearly ship losses do you think are plausible across 20 years? ...

We have no idea, which was my point.

What are your numbers? Can you try to explain them as I tried to explain mine? Are the consequences of your numbers plausible? Did the Darrians have 500, a 1000, or even more ships before losing half? If so, why were 250, 500, or more of them in the Darrian system when the Maghiz occurred?

My number was clearly stated: "unknowable". We don't have any canon numbers, or enough information to make accurate guesses. Your numbers might be correct, or they might just as well be off by orders of magnitude.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So, yes, the Zhodani where in Chornor when Darrian reached space travel, but no, they did not discover nor contact each other.

Thank you for the reminder.

So, the Zhodani were not among the threads they might tink about, but others (Vargr, other ROM or Vilani fugitives) were, albeit prbably seen as far ones at most.

Also check p8:
"In -1513, the fleet stopped temporarily at what is now Sacnoth and from there mounted a fast survey of the sector. After finding several potential world sites, the ltzin Fleet command selected Darrian as its new home.
The reasons for selecting Darrian were fairly obvious. Many worlds of the Spinward Marches had indigenous life forms; significantly fewer (Darrian, Algine, Vanejen, a few Zhodani worlds) had human populations."

Apparently the Itzin fleet knew about the nearby Zho?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

-1511/ AD 3007 Solomani Traders contact Darrians
-1000/ AD 3518 Zhodani consulate reaches current size (note that this is misleading since the Zhodani have very little presence in the SM until they start winning frontier Wars)
-924/ AD 3594 Darrian Sun destabilizes
50/ AD 4568 First Zhodani contact with Imperial traders
148/ AD 4666 IISS recontacts Darrians (this should be contact since the Imperium has made no contact with the Darrians prior to this)
500/ AD 5018 Imperial explorations into Zhodani territory
589 eve of 1st FW Zhodani potentially have two worlds in the Spinward Marches depending on how you read the map.

This does not say anything specifically about Zho colonisation in the Marches.

As McPerth points out, AM8 does:

The Zhodani were present in the Spinward Marches long before any other settlers. They established a toehold in Chronor subsector around -2,500, and that region became the trailing border of the Zhodani Consulate. It was just chance that Darrian surveys did not reach far enough to touch the Zhodani border, and no Zhodani expeditions touched Darrian space between -1521 and -920.

 

[McPerth]

Go back and read my post and subsequent posts - there is confusion because I pressed post before I had checked the dates.

MT Imperial Encyclopedia:

-1511/ AD 3007 Solomani Traders contact Darrians
-1000/ AD 3518 Zhodani consulate reaches current size (note that this is misleading since the Zhodani have very little presence in the SM until they start winning frontier Wars)
-924/ AD 3594 Darrian Sun destabilizes
50/ AD 4568 First Zhodani contact with Imperial traders
148/ AD 4666 IISS recontacts Darrians (this should be contact since the Imperium has made no contact with the Darrians prior to this)
500/ AD 5018 Imperial explorations into Zhodani territory
589 eve of 1st FW Zhodani potentially have two worlds in the Spinward Marches depending on how you read the map.

Yet, the quoted before part of AM8 clarly states that the Zhodani presence in Chornor subsector dates from -2500...

 

[McPerth]

Not forgotten, just discounted. They were warships meaning they required even more "tender loving care" than merchantmen. If it was no longer worth the effort needed to keep merchantmen flying, why make a greater effort to keep warships flying?

It wasn't a lack of ships. It was a lack of returns from operating those ships. Darrian wasn't getting enough of a return from it's efforts at maintaining interstellar links with the colonies. It wouldn't even have mattered if brand new ships were on hand. Darrian couldn't spare the assets and resources needed to operate them.

It was time for triage. The colonies were given a few ships which they could use in whatever fashion they wanted for a long as they lasted. Darrian had to concentrate on problems closer to home and, as resources dwindled, Darrian retreated across it's system and then from orbit all the while circling in on it's self. Darrian fell back so far that Mire was the one who which restored interstellar contact.

Even being military on nature and design, any warship (even destroyers) can carry quite a lot of people if they have to evacuate them, just by disposing its gunnery crew and allowing their staterooms to be used by those passengers/refugees. See that in FFW a CruDron can carry a full regiment of troops without even disposing of its offensive capacity (gunnery crew), and a BatDron a full división....

That's why it's so hard to me to accept those jump-capable ships were ignored in such a desesperate situation. It would even be easier to me to believe they were cannibalized for usable parts (computers, power plants, etc), if not (as I believe) to be used as ships, even if they were not the most eficient ones for the needs.

I keep thinking to be easier to believe that a reserve SDB/monitors unit (and even some support starships for them, but even without them) hidden in a base in the outer systems were forgotten or assumed lost (and slavage effort not worth it) while they survived by some luckly event (maybe protected by a dense large asteroid, GG, or whatever, maybe better armored than expected, whatever it be) until found again centuries after the Maghiz.

As said before, if so, even lower TL ships could be used as tenders, qhile those SDBs would be the battle element of this fleet and the spares in the base has allowed them to be kept operational since them.

And I agree with you the pre-Maghiz Darrians saw threats as few and far, and they were unlikely to build large Warships, but IMHO, some spinal armed 15-20 kdton monitors or light cruisers were perfectly posible. OF course, true battleships were out of scale for them...

Don't get me started on MgT's version. I don't want to cause Wil any trouble or get myself kicked.

Neither will I like having to step this way, so I thank you for avoiding it...

Then, if you don't accept current canon, I guess this may make you easier to accept my point of view about them, not "compeled" by it .

Also check p8:
"In -1513, the fleet stopped temporarily at what is now Sacnoth and from there mounted a fast survey of the sector. After finding several potential world sites, the ltzin Fleet command selected Darrian as its new home.
The reasons for selecting Darrian were fairly obvious. Many worlds of the Spinward Marches had indigenous life forms; significantly fewer (Darrian, Algine, Vanejen, a few Zhodani worlds) had human populations."

Apparently the Itzin fleet knew about the nearby Zho?

Not clear, but, if so, I guess they either did not identify them as part of a larger Empire or forgot about them, as latter the Darrians did not explore in this direction far enough to what should have been seen as the larger and closer threat.

 

[mike wightman]

Apparently the Itzin fleet knew about the nearby Zho?

I very much doubt it.

After the Darrians invented their jump drive they had decades to explore the Marches and yet never encountered the two Zhodani worlds; the Itzin fleet had less time to scout and yet encountered the Zhodani? Nope, don't buy it.

If the Itzin encountered the Zhodani then the Zhodani encountered the Itzin - and then just let them go on their way to uplift a minor human race the Zhodani hadn't encountered yet (the fact that the Zhodani didn't encounter the early Darrians shows the Zhodani were not particularly active in the SM at all since it took them 600 years to discover the Darrians and that was after the Maghiz event.

-1521 last Zhodani expedition around Darrian space
-1513 Terran traders stop at Sacnoth to scout the Marches
-1511 Terran traders contact Darrians
-1000 Zhodani consulate reaches 'current' borders (evidence from the SMC indicates the two worlds are the likely Zhodani border pre frontier wars)
-925 Maghiz
-920 Zhodani scout out what the hell made all the noise
-907 final extent of the Maghiz on Darrain space

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Not clear, but, if so, I guess they either did not identify them as part of a larger Empire or forgot about them, as latter the Darrians did not explore in this direction far enough to what should have been seen as the larger and closer threat.

Possibly, or possibly they carefully "by chance" didn't explore in the direction of the far older, far larger, and far more powerful interstellar empire, at least not officially.

 

[mike wightman]

Yet, the quoted before part of AM8 clarly states that the Zhodani presence in Chornor subsector dates from -2500...

Define presence. The only hard evidence is the pre 1st FW map which possibly/probably does show two Zhodani worlds and the c500 Spinward marches map which shows Zhodani worlds in Chronor.

Prior to 589 did the Zhodani have more worlds in the SM that some time between 50 and 500 the Imperium just slowly took over? It took the Zhodani 500 years to decide to declare war after losing multiple worlds to the Imperium? Again I don't buy it.

What makes sense is the Zhodani had only a couple of worlds in the SM for an awfully long time plus a few bases and outposts. The Maghiz event and the settling of the Sworld Worlds show the Zhodani take a greater interest in the SM - but that interest is likely to be only an extra few bases and outposts rather than out and out colony development.

The maps in LD:N-Z History of the SM section show no Zhodani settlement at all c300 or c400, they may have had bases and outposts but no settlements; by c500 the Zhodani have put down ten settlements in the Chronor subsector but by the outbreak of hostilities in 589 they only control two worlds.

Imperial expansion into the Marches changes the dynamic in a major way, the Zhodani start to develop their outposts but for close to 500 years the Imperium keeps taking away the worlds one by one.
Between c400 and c500 the Zhodani seek to consolidate their presence in the Chronor subsector and settle more worlds but it is too little too late. The imperials move into those worlds regardless of Zhodani presence
As it looks like the Imperium will move into the Foreven sector that's when the Zhodani think enough is enough and in the ensuing wars actually take territory from the Imperium.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

After the Darrians invented their jump drive they had decades to explore the Marches and yet never encountered the two Zhodani worlds; the Itzin fleet had less time to scout and yet encountered the Zhodani? Nope, don't buy it.

Why would the Darrians want to be discovered by a large, powerful interstellar empire? That didn't work out all that well for either the Terrans or the Vilani...

If the Itzin encountered the Zhodani then the Zhodani encountered the Itzin -

I disagree, you do not have to make yourself known if you discover someone. Someone fleeing the chaos of a collapsed empire might be a bit careful about whom they are known by?

and then just let them go on their way to uplift a minor human race the Zhodani hadn't encountered yet

Does the Zho have a shoot to kill or impound all alien vessels encountered policy?

The Itzin fleet was apparently an exploration fleet from some faction of the Imperium that the Zho knew about since a few thousand years. Why would that upset the Zho?

Would it be prudent of the Zho to "disappear" the visible part of an Imperial exploration fleet?

How would the Zho know that the Itzin fleet would go on to uplift the Darrian?

(the fact that the Zhodani didn't encounter the early Darrians shows the Zhodani were not particularly active in the SM at all since it took them 600 years to discover the Darrians and that was after the Maghiz event.

Agreed. And even AM8 agrees:

Zhodani expeditions beyond their own borders were frequent during the next two thousand years, but they were concentrated in the Gvurrdon, Provence, and Corridor sectors.

-1521 last Zhodani expedition around Darrian space
-1513 Terran traders stop at Sacnoth to scout the Marches
-1511 Terran traders contact Darrians

So the Zho stopped any (official) scouting in the area just when the Itzin fleet settled? Purely by chance?

-925 Maghiz
-920 Zhodani scout out what the hell made all the noise

So the Zho had resources within 5 lightyears (<2 Pc) of Darrian, but did not know about the centuries old interstellar state centered on Darrian? That sound a bit far-fetched to me...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Prior to 589 did the Zhodani have more worlds in the SM that some time between 50 and 500 the Imperium just slowly took over? It took the Zhodani 500 years to decide to declare war after losing multiple worlds to the Imperium? Again I don't buy it.

The Empires collided in the Chronor subsector:

The settlement of the Spinward Marches proceeded inexorably, with a gradual establishment of lmperial boundaries further and further spinward. By 500, the newly settled areas were adjacent to territories being settled by the Zhodani Consulate in the Cronor subsector. By 550, the two empires had intermingled their settlements, in some cases sharing systems, in others holding neighboring worlds.

It was the 3I who expanded into the Zho, at least according to Zho view:

The Zhodani first came into conflict with the expanding Third lmperium in the 500's, starting the First Frontier War in a dispute over present and future limits to settlement in the Spinward Marches area.

You may of course form any opinion you want from the limited, fragmented, and contradicting information we have about the history of the Spinward Marches. I find it difficult to come to any definite conclusions.