Darrian TL16 fleet

[mike wightman]

Too many of the canon quotes mention ships for them to be anything but jump capable. While I like your idea, it is not backed up by canon.

Also if you dig into the Regency sourcebook for TNE:

Sad as this might sound it turns out that the much-respected Darrian TL-16 fleet is something of a fraud as well.

It goes on to say that the Barekdoldin is based on Darrian examples, reverse engineered and built at Regency yards.
So from this can we deduce that the Darrian 'warships' were 500t vessels, closer to patrol cruisers than true warships?
This could be why the Swordies can win agains the Darrians, a 500t TL16 warship squadron or two is not going to stand up to a Sword World fleet comprising 30,000t riders and cruisers.
The Darrians would have to rely on their lower TL shipyards to build ships for the bulk of their naval defence pre-Imperial protection treaty. You would not commit 500t TL16 ships to certain destruction in a fleet engagement.

 

[McPerth]

Too many of the canon quotes mention ships for them to be anything but jump capable. While I like your idea, it is not backed up by canon.

Where exactly? I lack many books, but, AFAIK nowhere is this fleet described in canon, and nowhere is told that it is composed of jump capable ships (at least no more than IN, that is, at least in a large portion, formed by BT/BR combos). So I don't know of any canon material that is against it (as well as I don't know any canon material that backs it, leaving it mostly to the referees).

Also if you dig into the Regency sourcebook for TNE:

Sad as this might sound it turns out that the much-respected Darrian TL-16 fleet is something of a fraud as well.

It goes on to say that the Barekdoldin is based on Darrian examples, reverse engineered and built at Regency yards.

As said before I was not in TNE, and I don't know most of it material, so I trust your word on it, but that does not preclude it to have been true, just wear and tear (and lack of proper maintenance) attrited it to the point it was the fraud there told.

See also that in MT (so just previous to TNE) Deneb Depot was TL16, so it could build similar ships. This could help the Imperium to reverese engineer them (assuming they belong to a more mature TL16).

In any case, my guess is that this fleet has seen some action in the Frontier Wars, even if only as a show against a retreating fleet to instill panic in those already fleeing and let them talking in their countries about those marvel ships.

So from this can we deduce that the Darrian 'warships' were 500t vessels, closer to patrol cruisers than true warships?
This could be why the Swordies can win agains the Darrians, a 500t TL16 warship squadron or two is not going to stand up to a Sword World fleet comprising 30,000t riders and cruisers.

I don't believe that it was all composed of such small ships, but, again, no canon (AFAIK) specifies it, so anyone can take what he likes the most on it.

Those 500 dton ships would not have any true advantage over TL15 ships, though, as most of the advantages are only usable by larger ships. E.g.: their PP would have been a little smaller, but not to the point of making a true difference.

The Darrians would have to rely on their lower TL shipyards to build ships for the bulk of their naval defence pre-Imperial protection treaty. You would not commit 500t TL16 ships to certain destruction in a fleet engagement.

They had in any way, as the TL16 ships are few and can not be anywere, so they must have been supported by lower TL ships,

In any case, see that Imperial contact is (according CT:AM8, page 12) in 148 (in fact it says that in 148 Imperials contacted Sword Worlders, and immediatly after the Darrians). This is way before finding the relic fleet, so what you tell (before the defense treaty with the Imperium) is hardly applicable to its strategic importance.

 

[robject]

Hans had something a wee bit similar that he and I messed around with. His idea was that a TL 17 AI survey ship survived the Maghiz and then spent thousands of years ghosting around the backwaters of Chartered Space occasional taking on sophont crews for various tasks.

IIRC, the ship wasn't supposed to be campaign foundation as much as it was supposed to be a recurring NPC/patron the players would "bump" into.

...ANNIC NOVA??

 

[mike wightman]

Where exactly? I lack many books, but, AFAIK nowhere is this fleet described in canon, and nowhere is told that it is composed of jump capable ships (at least no more than IN, that is, at least in a alrge portion, formed by BT/BR combos). So Idon't know of any canon material that is against it (as well as I don't know any canon material that backs it, leaving it mostly to the referees).

Another Dilbert provided the quotes one page back...

remember in Traveller ship is used for jump capable vessels.

Here goes - all taken from the CT Alien Module:
page 10

Half of Darrian's starships were destroyed by the flares.

So half were not.
page 12

The remaining fleet of ships was divided up among the colonies; each
received three, which were then mothballed and stored against some future need.

A team of researchers investigated the museum-piece starships

page 17

The Darrian Navy maintains two or three squadrons of tech level 16
warships of pre-Maghiz manufacture. These ships 16 warships
were recovered from a stockpile of ships in the outer Darrian
system in 390; they have been in service since.

Note warship, not SDB or rider - ship, jump capable.
page 24

Darrian's interstellar navy, generally accepted as the forefront of any starfaring society, was characterized by tech level 16 starships

the Darrian Navy is built around a core of tech level 16 warships.

Thus, survivability and endurance can be inferred to be two of the characteristics that Darrian tech level 16 starships have. Probably fewer than two dozen Darrian tech level 16 starships survive today.

a small percentage of surviving Darrian tech level 16 starships were not originally of military design. At least four are reported to be merchant ships to which tech level 14 weaponry has been added. The implication is clear that tech level 16 ships

Darrian tends to use the ships

These valuable ships are generally committed only when they will assure victory; damage must be avoided because the ships cannot, under any circumstances, be replaced.

The tech level 16 ships are difficult to service.

So there you have it - lots of references to ships - jump capable - and none at all for SDBs or riders.

 

[Whipsnade]

So there you have it - lots of references to ships - jump capable - and none at all for SDBs or riders.

You convinced me Mike. The relics are not riders.

 

[Whipsnade]

I may of course be entirely wrong...

You are entirely wrong.

They cannot form a significant part of the Navy without being major warships.

They'll build the navy they need and not the one that looks cool. They won't build capital ships - and capital ships carry spinals - when they know there isn't even a remotely plausible threat from other capital ships.

Another fact you're continually overlooking is that we're discussing ~ -1000 and not 1105. The Confederation doesn't exist, it's Darrian and a handful of tiny scattered colonies.

We're looking at one world here. Darrian does all the heavy lifting, pays all the bills, builds everything, and educates everyone. Darrian is it and her colony worlds are dependents instead of economic assets. Remember, it took the biggest colony, Mire, nearly 800 years to build starship after the Maghiz.

They lacked a direct, immediate external threat...

That's true. They also lacked remote, long term external threats as actual history proved.

... but they knew other starfaring cultures existed...

That's true also. They knew other starfaring culture existed and they knew where those culture were located - several sectors away.

... not all that far away.

That's a deliberate misconception. It's been repeatedly explained to you what the Istvin Fleet knew and when they knew it.

They also had to police their own worlds...

One world and scattered handful of tiny outposts. Nothing that would require spinal-armed capital ships.

... and interstellar interests.

What interstellar interests? They don't have any interstellar neighbors closer than a sector away and they neighbors they do know about are multiple sectors away. What "interests" do they have that require force projection in the form of spinal-armed capital ships.

That is why I suggested cruiser, or cruiser-like, ships rather than battleships.

You suggested cruisers because they're cool, because having your Darrian PCs flying around in TL 16 unbeatable cruisers is just as cool as having your D&D PCs flying around on tamed red dragons.

This isn't D&D though. Traveller has to make sense.

If the TL 16 warships were not armed with spinals or many factor A+ bays no-one would care about them.

As already explained, their electronics and sensors would still make them useful and would still allow the Swordies to win wars. That last part is another fact you're continually overlooking; the Darrians lose wars. Even a single partially operable ship like the one you're suggesting would make thos know Swordie victories extremely unlikely.

If the Darrians have the "red dragons" you want them to have, how do they still lose wars?

The still-working TL16 warships may of course be only propaganda.

TNE's RSB

Or the Darrians might have something like a Navy Depot that can still repair and even build a few new TL 16 ships...

They don't.

... solving the mystery of ships still working after 2000 years.

TNE's RSB

I think we have to agree to disagree.

We can agree that you're wrong.

Canon is not very detailed...

It's detailed enough to know that you're wrong.

See though, that the Itzin is told (CT:AM8, page 8) to be formed by 35 transports and 10 armed escorts. So over 20% of their fleet was armed whips, and, having to cross the whole former Imperial space (that was becoming a chaos), those armed escorts are likely to be on the cruiser size range. They were no alien to warship needs.

I agree with. I'll also point out that the Istvin exodus takes place 300 years before Darrian starts building starships, that the Istvin exodus required different type of warships than any new Darrian navy would, and that those Istvin ships were funded/built by a far larger economic system in far larger number of far larger shipyards.

Assuming the former paragraph is true, the armed ships the Itzin took with them are likely to ha espinals and large bays...

I don't see spinals in the hands of trading companies, even as the RoM unravels.

I also don't see the Darrians slavishly copying the design rationales behind the warships in the Istvin Fleet when their immediate warship needs are so much more different.

Finally, I'll ask you the same question I asked "Dilbert" and the same question I've been raising since this topic began: How do the Darrians lose wars?

If they have TL 16 spinal-armed capital ships, how do they ever lose naval battles against a TL11 or 12 opponent?

 

[McPerth]

Another Dilbert provided the quotes one page back...

remember in Traveller ship is used for jump capable vessels.

Here goes - all taken from the CT Alien Module:
page 10 So half were not.
page 12


page 17
Note warship, not SDB or rider - ship, jump capable.

Note warship, not starship.

Starship is the term for jump capable ships, in contraposition to spaceship, that is also used for a ship that is not jump capable.

OTOH being refered as warships discards, IMHO, what you suggested about them being on the 500 dton range...

page 24


So there you have it - lots of references to ships - jump capable - and none at all for SDBs or riders.

And, if we're going to be so punctilious about wording, sure I could find a lot of references to IN also talking about starhips or ships, while we know a good portion of it are BRs...

I think the writers were not so punctilious, and used ship and starship to refere also to spaceships. After all the word ship is also used for any craft over 100 dtons in other sources, regardless being jump capable or not. The BRs are rarely refered as boats (but are as warships)...

 

[Whipsnade]

...ANNIC NOVA??

IIRC, the name was Lon-something.

The idea was a melancholy one and a bit of a suspender-snapper. I couldn't quite understand why the AI survey ship didn't return to Darrian after it learned of the Maghiz, but AIs doing what AIs want to do is a sci-fi staple and you could easily come up with several "plausible enough" reasons for why the ship stayed away.

I also had trouble with the idea that the ship kept itself in repair over the millennia, but T5's maker tech obviates those concerns while also providing built-in adventure hooks; i.e. Lon-something wants to build a new frommitz board but needs at least 5.67 grams of colloidal boron in a 12.34% isopropyl chromate solution with which to make the board. Enter the PCs.

We discussed the something like ST:TNG episode Tin Man as a possible adventure seed. I suggested that Lon-something may have biological "allies" scattered about Chartered Space, groups or families it contacted semi-regularly trading information for resources and repairs. Forex, there is some extended belting clan operating in a backwater cluster of worlds whose greatest secret is that an AI ship visits them every other generation or so trading information about ore deposits in various systems in return for exotic materials and hands-on repairs.

I'd also been re-reading Tai Pan around that time and was quite taken by the four broken bronze coins which figure prominently in that book and the rest of Clavell's Asian Saga. Imagine some powerful baronial family, something on the lines of the Oberlindes, who owe a penultimate debt of honor to Han's AI survey ship. Somehow or another, the AI ship's actions are why the family was raised to the peerage. In return for that, the AI ship obligated them to a certain number of favors, legal or illegal, that it could call in at any time. Before being named the heir, each successive baron has had to swear blindly to uphold the agreement. Skip forward centuries and the current baron is handed half of an ancient broken coin which fits exactly with the half in their possession.

And the shenanigans begin...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You are entirely wrong.

Good, show me the canon quote that settles that the Darrian TL 16 ships have no spinals. At all.

That's true also. They knew other starfaring culture existed and they knew where those culture were located - several sectors away.

That's a deliberate misconception. It's been repeatedly explained to you what the Istvin Fleet knew and when they knew it.

Yes, that has been asserted without supporting evidence.

AM8, p12:

The Zhodani were present in the Spinward Marches long before any other settlers. They established a toehold in Chronor subsector around -2,500,

AM8, p8:

In -1513, the fleet stopped temporarily at what is now Sacnoth and from there mounted a fast survey of the sector. After finding several potential world sites, the ltzin Fleet command selected Darrian as its new home. The reasons for selecting Darrian were fairly obvious. Many worlds of the Spinward Marches had indigenous life forms; significantly fewer (Darrian, Algine, Vanejen, a few Zhodani worlds) had human populations.

It would appear that canon specifically state that the Itzin fleet knew of Zhodani worlds a single subsector away.

You suggested cruisers because they're cool, because having your Darrian PCs flying around in TL 16 unbeatable cruisers is just as cool as having your D&D PCs flying around on tamed red dragons.

This isn't D&D though. Traveller has to make sense.

You speak with great certainty about something you know absolutely nothing about. That seems to be a habit of yours.

I agree with. I'll also point out that the Istvin exodus takes place 300 years before Darrian starts building starships

AM8, p8:

In -1511, the people of the ltzin Fleet appeared in Rimb

By -1400, ... Instead, the Darrians started over with an existing, proven technology and theory, and with the fleet of now nonworking starships in orbit. Darrian industry was then charged with building new ships that did work. In the space of ten years, they had their first working design

Initial Darrian exploration (in the period -1395 to -1370)

No, not 300 years. A little over 100 years, and they specifically used the Istvin ships.

Finally, I'll ask you the same question I asked "Dilbert" and the same question I've been raising since this topic began: How do the Darrians lose wars?

How about numbers? A few TL 16 ships will not defeat infinite numbers of TL 12 ships. Especially if they are cruisers and not battleships.

 

[McPerth]

Please, avoid personal attacks. The thread is being interesting and will be more so if we keep it polite and civilized (as true Darrians would)

 

[McPerth]

I agree with. I'll also point out that the Istvin exodus takes place 300 years before Darrian starts building starships, that the Istvin exodus required different type of warships than any new Darrian navy would, and that those Istvin ships were funded/built by a far larger economic system in far larger number of far larger shipyards.

See that this time span is a two wedged argument...

Yes. 3 centuries had passed since the Itzin reached Darrian to when they began to build starhips again. And they knew when they arrived there were an expanding barbarian race (Vargr) about a sector coreward and enough unstability in the former Imperium to suspect other groups have also taken the exile way.

What they didn't know was what had happened with them in those 3 centuries. Whould the Vargr had extended Rimward to their closeness? would other fugitives (maybe more militaristic) have settled in the neighbourhood?

Those were their perceived threats when they moved to the stars. And, unlike other races that when began moving to stars was either into known polities (when helped by someone) or without knowledge of what could they find (major races), they knew there could be others, but were alone venturing into it.

About the economic and shipbuilding capacity of the Itzin when they built their fleet, I've seen no reference to it, and I guess it was built by them, not by the larger (as you say) political entity where they were.

I don't see spinals in the hands of trading companies, even as the RoM unravels.

And I don't see an exilee fleet departing to such a dangerous trip across war and pirate ravaged space without some heavy weapons to protect them...

I also don't see the Darrians slavishly copying the design rationales behind the warships in the Istvin Fleet when their immediate warship needs are so much more different.

Not slavishly copying, but basing their designs on them. Remember they had little in the way of military history, so they could well assume that the Terrans that build those ships knew better than them on the needs of military ffleet (after all, they have defeated an empire many times their size, or at least that was how they saw it, probably the Itzin included).

Finally, I'll ask you the same question I asked "Dilbert" and the same question I've been raising since this topic began: How do the Darrians lose wars?

If they have TL 16 spinal-armed capital ships, how do they ever lose naval battles against a TL11 or 12 opponent?

Here I agree with AnotherDilbert to a point: numbers (albeit not infinite) and will to sustain losses. A large TL12 PA spinal (Q rated) may hit a TL16 ship, even with the -6 for agility and the -4 due to computer difference. Even if its armored to level 16, the spinals are likely to end eroding some waponry. Even if they destroy several SW ships, the Darrians can hardly afford losing any of those precious and irremplaceable bays (and remember, as long as there's more than one battery of the same type, the whole battery is destroyed) or spinals.

So, depending on the odds, the Darrians refused to send their precious TL16 ships to preserve them from irremplaceable damages.

And, BTW, even if using TL15 Imperium built ships, your question remains, as it can also be argued how did the Sword Worlds attack Lanth, that being an Imperial Subsector capital and with a naval Base is quite likely to have some TL15 ships defending it...

AM8, p8:

In -1513, the fleet stopped temporarily at what is now Sacnoth and from there mounted a fast survey of the sector. After finding several potential world sites, the ltzin Fleet command selected Darrian as its new home. The reasons for selecting Darrian were fairly obvious. Many worlds of the Spinward Marches had indigenous life forms; significantly fewer (Darrian, Algine, Vanejen, a few Zhodani worlds) had human populations.

It would appear that canon specifically state that the Itzin fleet knew of Zhodani worlds a single subsector away..

And yet, as told in known facts, from AM8 page 12:

It was just chance that Darrian sureveys did not reach far enough to touch the Zhodani border, and no Zhodani expeditions reached Darrian space between -1521 and -920

See that this period includes the -1513 your quote talks about, so, IMHO, the best conclusion is that even if the Zhodani are quoted as being in the sector by then, they were not detected by the itzin.

 

[Whipsnade]

Good, show me the canon quote that settles that the Darrian TL 16 ships have no spinals. At all.

Show me one that does.

As a single high-tech world existing in peaceful golden isolation which lasted centuries, Darrian had neither the need, desire, rationale, or ability to design, fund, build, man, maintain, or operate squadrons of spinal-armed capital ships.

 

[McPerth]

Good, show me the canon quote that settles that the Darrian TL 16 ships have no spinals. At all. .

Show me one that does.

AFAIK there's no canon material that can clarify this point. In fact the nickname of the thread could be Lots of spaculations and guessings over few known facts.

Both of you can claim the other is unsupported by canon, but none of you can claim he is supported by it, and that puts the matter into a 'how do I interpret the information I have', and probably there's not a single good answer, having to adapt the OTU to it each one in his way.

The claim that they are likely to have spinals (or at least large bays) may be supported by the use of the word warship (not patrol ship or combat ship), usually reserved to capital ships, if we want to return to analyze the wording.

OTOH, Whipsnade also has a point in thet the Darrians had no reason to so heavily arming their ships, an in his claim that if it was a too heavy fleet the Darrian/Sword Worlds history would have been different.

 

[Whipsnade]

Yes. 3 centuries had passed since the Itzin reached Darrian to when they began to build starhips again. And they knew when they arrived there were an expanding barbarian race (vargr) about a secto coreward and enough unstability in the former Imperium to suspect other groups have also taken the exile way.

Once again, given a budget, industrial capacity, and pool of personnel limited to a single world, would they plan right now on countering these somewhat possible, but very distant threats by building system defense forces or force projection forces?

About the economic and shipbuilding capacity of the Itzin when they built their fleet, I've seen no reference to it, and I guess it was built by them, not by the larger (as you say) political entity where they were.

Would you say that the Itzin had more worlds, yards, industries, and personnel available to them than Darrian did?

And I don't see an exilee fleet departing to such a dangerous trip across war and pirate ravaged space without some heavy weapons to protect them...

Bays are heavy enough. Pirates aren't carrying spinals and rogue splinter states are going to be avoided rather than fought across.

Don't forget, those warships are escorting more than twice their number of civilian ships carrying their families. Are they going to avoid battles when possible while defending themselves or are they going to travel along guns blazing.

Here's another point to think about. You're a local governor or other grand poobah, the RoM is slowly disintegrating, and you receive news that a trading company is in talks about building spinal-armed warships. What is your response?

Not slavishly copying, but basing their designs on them. remember they had little in the way of military history, so they could well assume that the Terrans that build those ships knew better than them on the needs of military ffleet (after all, they have defeated an empire many times their size, or at least that was how they saw it, probably the Itzin included).

I'm sure the Darrian looked to Terran and RoM military history. I'm also sure they didn't slavishly copy that history because I'm very certain they weren't idiots.

Building a navy from the start made up spinal-armed cruisers because "Herp Derp that's how the Confederation beat the Ziru Sirka Hurr Durr" ignores the situation at hand. Times are different, the situation is different, and the Darrians' needs are different so their navy is going to be different.

Darrian building spinal-armed capitals to patrol their tiny colonial presence because that is how the TC beat the ZS in the Interstellar Wars is akin to Bolivia building a carrier battle group to patrol Lake Titicaca because that's how the US beat Japan in WW2.

Eventually building spinal-armed capital ships? Sure. Building them now when resources are slight and any potential enemy is far away? Nonsense.

Here I agree with AnotherDilbert to a point: numbers (albeit not infinite) and will to sustain losses.

I've already explained that zerg rushing legions against Pyrrhus or human waves against panzers isn't exactly 100% portable to space combat. Ermattungsstratgie isn't enough.

 

[flykiller]

Building them now when resources are slight and any potential enemy is far away? Nonsense.

not even for corporate profit reasons?

"hey, we can buy a few high-level politicos on daria, get 'em to hire our experts on down-time and pay our patent fees and build a few boats ...."

 

[Whipsnade]

not even for corporate profit reasons?

During the 3I era? Sure why not? I'd be surprised if it didn't happen several times under the guise of "trade missions" and the like after contact.

During the Darrian's golden age from roughly -1137 or -924? Where are those "economic hitmen" with their bribes, tech reps, and patents coming from?

 

[McPerth]

Once again, given a budget, industrial capacity, and pool of personnel limited to a single world, would they plan right now on countering these somewhat possible, but very distant threats by building system defense forces or force projection forces?

Well, I'm advocating that those ships were in fact SDBs (and quite alone on it). I guess that's not a force projection force, but a defensive one just in case those distant threats are not so distant.

Would you say that the Itzin had more worlds, yards, industries, and personnel available to them than Darrian did?

No, precisely opposite. You claimed (or at least that's what i understood) that Itzin ships were built by a larger economy with larger shipbuilding capacity. I just mean that this would be true if built by the RoM government or Old Terra Confederation, but not if built by the itzin themselves.

Bays are heavy enough. Pirates aren't carrying spinals and rogue splinter states are going to be avoided rather than fought across.

Don't forget, those warships are escorting more than twice their number of civilian ships carrying their families. Are they going to avoid battles when possible while defending themselves or are they going to travel along guns blazing.

Sure they tried to avoid combat, but some times the best way to avoid it is by presenting a credible menace, and spinals (even if just a few) may help on it (as can a TL16 fleet when your potential enemies are TL12 )

Here's another point to think about. You're a local governor or other grand poobah, the RoM is slowly disintegrating, and you receive news that a trading company is in talks about building spinal-armed warships. What is your response?

And if you know this same trading company is planing to leave with a large fleet when shipping is becoming scarcer, how will you?

My guess is that the grand poobah in question was either unaware of it or unable to stop them...

I'm sure the Darrian looked to Terran and RoM military history. I'm also sure they didn't slavishly copy that history because I'm very certain they weren't idiots.

Building a navy from the start made up spinal-armed cruisers because Herp Derp that's how the Confederation beat the Ziru Sirka Hurr Durr ignores the situation at hand. Times are different, the situation is different, and the Darrians' needs are different so their navy is going to be different.

Darrian building spinal-armed capitals to patrol their tiny colonial presence because that is how the TC beat the ZS is akin to Bolivia building a carrier battle group to patrol lake Titicaca because that's how the US beat Japan.

Probably more likely to train and equip his troops in US model as they have shown to know how to conduct war. Sonds that more reasonable?

Eventually building spinal-armed capital ships? Sure. Building them now when resources are slight and any potential enemy is far away? Nonsense.

But if you build some SDBs just in case, and considering that if you need them is for a last ditch defense, wouldn't you arm them (or at least a part of them) with the best weapons you could?

And if you see a threat (even if a distant one) and you know it would take some years to build an effective SDB fleet, would you wait for the threat to rally show up before building the fleet? I'd probably built them slowly, but before the threat materializes itself.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

AFAIK there's no canon material that can clarify this point. In fact the nickname of the thread could be Lots of spaculations and guessings over fes known facts.

Both of you can claim the other is unsupported by canon, but none of you can claim he is supported by it, and that puts the matter into a 'how do I interpret the information I have', and probably there's not a single good answer, having to adapt the OTU to it each one in his way.

Quite. I made a vague guess that the TL 16 ships might be cruisers, I never made any claim to be certain.

It would possibly be consistent with canon if the TL 16 warships were destroyers or megaton battle tenders with dozens of riders, or any mix between. I agree that we simply do not know.

 

[Whipsnade]

Both of you can claim the other is unsupported by canon...

As our Absent Friend Hans always said: It has to make sense.

Canon is silent on a myriad of subjects and rightfully so. We can, however, infer and deduce a great deal of information that isn't explicitly or specifically mentioned.

Hans and I had our debates and, while I didn't always agree with him, but his inferences and deductions were always predicated on logic and not wishful thinking.

When we offer up an explanation, we all too often fail to take into consideration what follow effects that explanation may have. Back on the TML we called this the Handwave Whipsaw Effect. While Handwave B, for example, might neatly explain Canonical Fact A, it couldn't also be made to work with Canonical Facts C, D, or E.

Generally speaking, the bigger the handwave the more other problems it causes and that led to another of Hans' maxims: Make as little change as you can.

OTOH, Whipsnade also has a point in thet the Darrians had no reason to so heavily arming their ships, an in his claim that if it was a too heavy fleet the Darrian/sword worlds history would have been different.

When you look at all the canonical facts, even those not directly connected with the Darrians, when your inferences and deductions are predicated on logic and historical examples, and when you take great care to suggest as small a change as possible, then you have a workable explanation that can be used by the greatest number of people.

Otherwise, you're just making stuff up for your own TU and your own purposes.

 

[Whipsnade]

But if you build some SDBs just in case, and considering that if you need them is for a last ditch defense, wouldn't you arm them (or at least a part of them) with the best weapons you could?

We don't build the "best" weapons can now. No one ever has. Instead, we build what we can get away with.

There's always a complex interplay of needs, capabilities, economics, and other factors involved. Mangling metaphors here, but no weapon is an island.

Examine what the Darrians knew at the time, examine the Darrians' actual strategic needs circa -1000, examine the roles a Darrian navy circa -1000 could seriously be asked to fill, examine what the Darrians are plausibly capable of industrially, financially, or otherwise, and then tell me with a straight face that the Darrians were building enough spinal-armed capital ships that they were stockpiling them in the outer system by -924.