Darrian TL16 fleet

[McPerth]

And your idea is fine for YTU, but the canon of AM8 mentions starships times, warships times and ships time.
It never once mentions SDBs or riders/tender combos or monitors.

So, do you think that the fact that over two dozen (as some must have downgraded with time and probably been canibalized) jump capable ships were overlooked in post-Maghiz era, when the Darrian were pressing every such ship to service to try keeping contact with colonies makes more sense than accepting that if the full squadron is jump capable they may be colectivelly refered as starships?

 

[McPerth]

From AM8, pages 16-17:

not only were the original Darrian ships built from solomani patterns, but Darrians have shown a preference for Solomani design features. Solomani design plans have been consistently imported by Darrian, and a small business of feedback and sharing of designs between Terra and Darrian has been established

So, even in the Golden Era, the Darrians were importing designs from Terra (as Terra is Imperial then, I guess it means the Solomani Sphere)

• Across the whole Imperium (or Aslan space, but full sectors away anyway)...
• Having to adapt them to their TL15 shipbuilding tech (as said in AM8, page 17), as they are TL14 ones...
• Having to share their supply and maintenance lines with the imported Imperial designs, with probably non-compatible parts (the quartermaster's nightmare)...
• Probably with the opposition of their Imperial allies' corportations (and at risk to upset them)...

But yet, when they began building ships and had less experience and tech

I also don't see the Darrians slavishly copying the design rationales behind the warships in the Istvin Fleet when their immediate warship needs are so much more different.

Maybe not slavishly, but...

 

[mike wightman]

So, do you think that the fact that over two dozen (as some must have downgraded with time and probably been canibalized) jump capable ships were overlooked in post-Maghiz era, when the Darrian were pressing every such ship to service to try keeping contact with colonies makes more sense than accepting that if the full squadron is jump capable they may be colectivelly refered as starships?

Go back and read my finished post.

They are starships.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

We already know that the last remaining ships were mothballed around -905 when they gave up on trying to keep communicating with their colonies.

A reasonable explanation may be that when the remaining ships were divided among the colonies, the homeworld kept the remaining warships and mothballed them, hidden in the outer system where it's less likely any civilians will find them accidentally and they have some protection from any further stellar flares. That would leave us with a motley collection of surviving ships of a mix of classes.

I find that more likely in the aftermath of chaos and destruction, than a well-ordered squadron.

But as you already pointed out we can only guess, in the absence of canon.

 

[Condottiere]

Warships categories tend to shift at different tech, or subtech, levels.

If the Darrians built warships, then they had a definite, if not entirely clear and present, danger in mind.

Or early Darrian history actually had a great deal of internal compulsion in it, and triggering that starblast might have been a Deathstar demonstration that went badly wrong.

 

[McPerth]

A reasonable explanation may be that when the remaining ships were divided among the colonies, the homeworld kept the remaining warships and mothballed them, hidden in the outer system where it's less likely any civilians will find them accidentally and they have some protection from any further stellar flares. That would leave us with a motley collection of surviving ships of a mix of classes.

And being this the case, whould they have been left there when Darrians recovered star travel (in -275, from Mire) to 390 (so, for over 600 years)?

See that those mothballer ships would have been recorded for latter recovery, and quite unlike to be ever lost, as it seems the ships were. This aside, your reasoning has a point too...

 

[mike wightman]

Can I just clear the air a bit by saying I like your idea, it has potential.
It would certainly make sense that SDBs, hardened against nuclear weapons, particle accelerator hits and meson secondary radiation damage would stand a chance of surviving the disaster, especially if in some secret base.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And being this the case, whould they have been left there when Darrians recovered star travel (in -275, from Mire) to 390 (so, for over 600 years)?

See that those mothballer ships would have been recorded for latter recovery, and quite unlike to be ever lost, as it seems the ships were. This aside, your reasoning has a point to...

They were mothballed in -905 (or so), the Mirans came calling in -275. Information gets lost in 600 years, especially classified information.

The computers the location was stored in are rusted and gone, the coded archive-proof paper backup is stored in a vault somewhere, or the archive burnt down a few centuries ago...

In the aftermath of the Maghiz keeping the data of a no longer existing organization (the Navy) is perhaps not the most prioritised activity.

Keeping information accurate and accessible over many centuries is no easy task.

 

[McPerth]

Go back and read my finished post.

They are starships.

Done, (you're right in that my post was done before you finished editing it), I knew all those quotes.

Even so, when you refere to all navy vessels, you probably colectivelly call them ships, and when to those without fixed positions (star capable, either by themselves or by Tenders), probably as starships.

That's the same as if you look at any navy Active Ships List (or at least those I've checked for other pourposes) in the Wikipedia, it includes also submarines, patrol boats, etc, all colectivelly called ships, regardless technically being ships, boats or other designations.

For the same reasons you give, as Imperial bases are told to be able to serve navy ships, it should exclude any non jump capable boat/craft as being serviced by them?

See that in all fighting ships supplements (both in CT and MT) there are also non jump capable examples, but they are collectivelly said ships in the book title...

From MT:FSotSI (its designs are quite flawled, but I guess its Navy background is canon), page 6:

BatRon: Battle squadrons are created from battleships

And yet, we all know that many of them are composed by BT/BR combos...

And in this same book, the BRs are in the battleship section, so,again, colectivelly called battleships...

From MT:RS, page 33:

Naval depots are huge harboring areas for starships, naval personnel and supporting services (...)

A major focus for each naval depot is the maintenance of navy's starships(...)

providing in-depth training for all aspects of starship technology (...)

to tactical training in the use of starship weaponry

Off course, following your reasoning, BRs and other boats are excluded from depots, where they cannot be harbored nor maintained, nor can their technology or weaponry training be conducted...

Or we can colectivelly call all navy crafts as starships for easines of language?

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, non-starships are termed boats.

So you could have a thousand tonne SDB and a hundred tonne Scout.

 

[mike wightman]

I'll quote S:9 again

(Note:
in naval parlance, the term ship is reserved for jump-capable vessels, while non-jump
capable vessels are referred to as boats, riders, or monitors).

This is the definitive version of Imperial ship/boat/rider/monitor nomenclature

There are five broad types of ship in service with the Imperial Navy: Scouts,
Escorts, Cruisers, Carriers, and Battleships.

Note the lack of SDBs, riders or monitors in the list because they are not ships.

 

[LeperColony]

Personal preferences aside, this appears to be resolvable on a simple minimal inference/assumption rule, a Rache's Razor, I suppose.

McPerth's personal preference is clearly for the TL16 fleet consisting primarily of boats. However, to make that possibility consistent with canon, he has to make one more assumption than those who believe they are jump capable. Namely, he has to assume that, at least in certain situations, "ship" does not mean what we're told it means.

Let's note for a second that it's possible he's right, even though it requires an extra step. The problem is, since we have a canon adhering solution that does not require the additional linguistic gymnastics or TU assumption, I think as a simple rule of construction we should tend to prefer the answer with fewer complications.

Of course, nothing stops McPerth from having them as boats in HTU.

I would like to say that this is actually one of my favorite parts of Traveller fandom. Well reasoned and realistic considerations of not just the text of game materials, but their further implications in a world built on their assumptions (so long as it doesn't, as it sometimes does, degenerate into hostility).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'll quote S:9 again
This is the definitive version of Imperial ship/boat/rider/monitor nomenclature

Not the lack of SDBs, riders or monitors in the list because they are not ships.

Much as I want to agree with Mike, I think it is not that simple.

Suppl9 was, I think, before the Battle Rider had entered canon, or at least become common. In MT:Fighting Ships the nomenclature is nuanced:

MT:FSotSI, p5

FIVE BROAD SHIP TYPES
The Imperial Navy acknowledges five broad ship types in its service: scouts, escorts, cruisers, carriers, and battleships.

The broad type of battleship is further divided into many more clearly defined types. Besides battleships,there are dreadnoughts, battle riders, and battle tenders.

MT:RefMan, p57:

DEFINITION OF COMMON TERMS
The following definitions apply to the transportation systems
...
Small Craft: Any craft with a volume of 270 to 1350 kiloliters (20 to 100 tons displacement). Small craft commonly travel in space.
Spaceships: Any craft with a volume of 1350 kiloliters or more (100 tons displacement or more) which is equipped with a maneuver drive, but not a jump drive.
Starshlps: Any spaceship equipped with a jump drive is a starship.

So, Battle Riders can probably be called ships, but not starships.

 

[mike wightman]

Battle Riders are a thing in S:9.
In the Section titled Imperial Fleet:

Prior to the war, naval architecture had concentrated primarily on the battle rider as the main
vessel intended to stand in the line of battle. A battle rider is a non-jump-capable
capital ship generally carried on a large (up to one million tons) fleet tender. Such
a tender carries a complete Battle Squadron (BatRon) of from six to eight vessels.
While it is undeniable that a BatRon of battle riders will invariably defeat an equal
tonnage squadron of jump-capable battleships, the early weeks of the Fourth
Frontier War uncovered a serious design weakness. When faced with superior
numbers, the riders were unable to withdraw and jump out-system due to the time
required to secure them in their tenders. Thus, rider BatRons suffered disproportionate
losses in the early stages of the war.
The solution arrived at was to concentrate all rider BatRons in the strategic
reserves while manning the frontier delaying forces exclusively with ships.

 

[flykiller]

When faced with superior numbers, the riders were unable to withdraw and jump out-system due to the time required to secure them in their tenders.

well, yeah, if the incoming fleet jumps right in on top of the rider fleet. but as the recent jump game 02 illustrates, this is unlikely. or if patrolling in a likely venue for sneak attack the obvious answer is to leave riders already mounted to their tenders.

honestly, it's like the admirals don't know what they're doing or something ....

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Battle Riders are a thing in S:9.
In the Section titled Imperial Fleet:

Sorry, I misremembered.

But the same section also says (Fighting Ships, p9):

A battle rider is a non-jump-capable capital ship

 

[Whipsnade]

The Darrians had a spawling interstellar presence covering several subsectors for over 400 years...

We're going to need a source for that.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

well, yeah, if the incoming fleet jumps right in on top of the rider fleet. but as the recent jump game 02 illustrates, this is unlikely. or if patrolling in a likely venue for sneak attack the obvious answer is to leave riders already mounted to their tenders.

honestly, it's like the admirals don't know what they're doing or something ....

Battle Tenders are a severe tactical problem. You can never let the enemy shoot at them. The problem is very different in HG where you can hide them in the reserve, and other systems where you have to keep them out of range of any potential enemy.

The problem with Riders is when you commit them to battle, if you do not win you take 100% losses, since you cannot retreat. You can always design the Riders with J-1, to let them retreat, but is costly.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

We're going to need a source for that.

OK.

AM8, p9:

Initial Darrian exploration (in the period -1395 to -1370) concentrated on the worlds of the Darrian Group (Spume, Mire, Condaria, Roget, Ilium, Rorre, Engrange, Ektron, Laberv, and 494-908). Constrained by the jump-1 drives built for the first series of explorers, Darrian starfarers stayed within a few parsecs of their homeworld. By -1370 the next generation of starships, complete with jump-2 drives and fuel reserves, was coming off the construction blocks. Certain select ships within this class were equipped with jump-3 drives for even greater range.
Between -1370 and -1270 Darrian ships explored the Marches with a radius of about twenty parsecs. In this period the Marches had not yet been settled, and there was relatively little reason for trade between worlds. Some exploration, some world exploitation, and even some scientific investigations were conducted in the Marches. For example, signs remain today of the vast Darrian strip mine on Debarre (0830); the rusting ruins of a gas refinery can still be found on Talchek [District 268] (1631).

AM8, p19:

After a relatively brief period of exploration, Darrian con- centrated further efforts of exploration and colonization on the worlds closer to home. Between -1250 and -1100 Darrian established colonies on the eleven worlds known as the Darrian Group. This core of worlds became a tight community that traded among themselves, exploiting their worlds, building their industry, and exchanging research data.

AM8, p24 [by the time of Maghiz]:

There was an extensive presence in District 268. A research facility on Dawnworld continued to operate for several years until its operators finally died of old age. A Darrian mining colony in the Bowman Belt suffocated when resupply ships never arrived. Small outposts throughout the subsector.died off when their expected relief ships failed to show up.
Darrian maintained several establishments in the Sword Worlds subsector. Mining colonies were in place on Colada and Excalibur; they died when Darrian could no longer send out ships to pick up production and provide supplies. A pharmaceutical gathering station on Gungnir survived for nearly a hundred years before the last children of its original workforce died out.

 

[flykiller]

Battle Tenders are a severe tactical problem.

we could game this out right here on coti.