Darrian TL16 fleet

[Condottiere]

You now have weapon bays weighing in at five hundred tonnes; they might be mistaken as ultralite spinal mounts.

 

[McPerth]

As our Absent Friend Hans always said: It has to make sense.

Canon is silent on a myriad of subjects and rightfully so. We can, however, infer and deduce a great deal of information that isn't explicitly or specifically mentioned.

Hans and I had our debates and, while I didn't always agree with him, but his inferences and deductions were always predicated on logic and not wishful thinking

Fully agreed with you here. I also miss him, even though we seldom agreed,

When you look at all the canonical facts, even those not directly connected with the Darrians, when your inferences and deductions are predicated on logic and historical examples, and when you take great care to suggest as small a change as possible, then you have a workable explanation that can be used by the greatest number of people.

Otherwise, you're just making stuff up for your own TU and your own purposes.

I tried to do this, and I rached the coinclusion (as said from the begining one of the many possible ones) that those TL16 might not be starships but heavy SDBs (light ones would not be qualified as warships) that are being used as BR.

Does this acomplish your conditions to be considered as canon compatible and to make sense?

We don't build the "best" weapons can now. No one ever has. Instead, we build what we can get away with.

There's always a complex interplay of needs, capabilities, economics, and other factors involved. Mangling metaphors here, but no weapon is an island.

Ok, not the best weapons (after all, an U meson gun would require larger ships than I'm suggesting here), but will you be surprised about some of them, being this last ditch defense that cannot fail, was equiped with "light" spinals (as a J rated one).

And see that I'm not talking about all of them, but probably a part of them, others being armed with heavy bays. See that less than this will not fit into the warship category, and will go against what you said yourself about suggesting as small a change as possible, at least in written material (as I guess in the minds of many of us, me included, this is not so small a change).

Examine what the Darrians knew at the time, examine the Darrians' actual strategic needs circa -1000, examine the roles a Darrian navy circa -1000 could seriously be asked to fill, examine what the Darrians are plausibly capable of industrially, financially, or otherwise, and then tell me with a straight face that the Darrians were building enough spinal-armed capital ships that they were stockpiling them in the outer system by -924.

Again, I'm not talking about capital ships, but about heavy SDBs on the 10-15 kdton range being used as BRs.

 

[Whipsnade]

Again, I'm not talking about capital ships, but about heavy SDBs on the 10-15 kdton range being used as BRs.

True, you're not talking about capital ships. Other people are.

As I wrote earlier, I quite like your The-TL16-relics-were-mostly-heavy-SDBs idea. It fits various canonical statements while also addressing various issues.

OTOH, the quotes Mike kindly provided and other canonical statements seem to point away from SDBs however, so I'm going to have to mull things over.

There are lots of imponderables here that we can mull over. For example, why do you think those warships found in 390 had been stockpiled in the outer system? Why not parked at a Lagrange point or three which would be easier to get to or not as easily forgotten? They stockpiled them out there and then lost track of them for over 1200 years. It's almost as if they wanted to hide them for some reason and then over time forgot where they were hidden.

 

[aramis]

The terms used in the AM8 text preclude SDB's, Lluis.

There might be some heavy SDB's built at TL14 (in fact, I'd expect it), but the surviving ships are 4 merchants and 12 warships...

The issue of spinals on those TL16 warships... whole 'nother matter. The text is unclear, but I'm on the "Probably at least one of the ships is likely to have one"... because AM 8 was written well into the Big Ship OTU paradigm.

The irony? The official designs I've seen were TL16 Patrol Cruisers in the 400 Td range. ISTR them in TNE...

Bill is, I think, overlooking one other use of a fleet - maintaining internal unity. Cultures drift over time, and any level of isolation grows until it turns time to separate or forcibly reintegrate. Warships of scariness with crews selected for loyalty tend to be a major internal security factor in pelagic age of sail societies; I would expect them to be similarly so for interstellar ones.

 

[Whipsnade]

The terms used in the AM8 text preclude SDB's, Lluis.

I'm leaning towards that too, sadly.

The issue of spinals on those TL16 warships... whole 'nother matter. The text is unclear, but I'm on the "Probably at least one of the ships is likely to have one"... because AM 8 was written well into the Big Ship OTU paradigm.

True, AM:8 is well after HG2, but I'm still having trouble believing the Darrians would have an in-game reason to build enough that spinal-armed warships so that at least one survived the Maghiz and subsequent centuries.

Bill is, I think, overlooking one other use of a fleet - maintaining internal unity.

That was suggested and I discounted it. How big are those Darrian colonies in -924? Big enough to have independence movements which require big-stick warships to show the flag? It took the biggest, Mire, over 600 years to build jump drives again and that despite knowing it was possible.

I simply don't see an external threat or the internal turmoil that require spinal-armed warships.

 

[aramis]

That was suggested and I discounted it. How big are those Darrian colonies in -924? Big enough to have independence movements which require big-stick warships to show the flag? It took the biggest, Mire, over 600 years to build jump drives again and that despite knowing it was possible.

I simply don't see an external threat or the internal turmoil that require spinal-armed warships.

Only takes about 30K people to generate a secessionist movement. See also Alaska in the 1930's to 1950's. The active military presence was a deterrent - you don't just have to declare and isolate, but also deal with the near immediate on-location forces.

A lot more has to do with ideology. The Big Stick may be there just to say, "Look, Pirates, if we find you, we WILL blow your base from here to eternity..."

 

[Whipsnade]

Only takes about 30K people to generate a secessionist movement. See also Alaska in the 1930's to 1950's. The active military presence was a deterrent - you don't just have to declare and isolate, but also deal with the near immediate on-location forces.

So the Darrians are going to build spinal-armed capital vessels because the locals on their versions of Alaska are getting stroppy?

Prior to WW2, did the US station any battleships or cruisers in Alaska to counter any grumbling? Hell, did they station anything there larger than a Coast Guard cutter? What sort of armed forces of any type were stationed there in 1939? A few Army rifle companies, some signal forces, and Navy seaplane base wasn't it? (Of course after WW2 more forces are stationed, not because of the locals but because of the Soviets.)

The US kept the lid on with a few patrol vessels, but the Darrians are going to need spinal-armed cruisers?

A lot more has to do with ideology. The Big Stick may be there just to say, "Look, Pirates, if we find you, we WILL blow your base from here to eternity..."

Pirates. In the Marches. One thousand years before the founding of the Third Imperium.

As far as inhabited worlds go, we're looking at various Minor Race home worlds, Algine, Vanejen, and a few Zho worlds who didn't even notice the Darrians for over 500 years, but we need to be worried about pirates.

Or we need to be worried about looking tough?

Sorry, I still don't see any in-game reasons why the Darrians would build them.

 

[LeperColony]

Pirates. In the Marches. One thousand years before the founding of the Third Imperium.

As far as inhabited worlds go, we're looking at various Minor Race home worlds, Algine, Vanejen, and a few Zho worlds who didn't even notice the Darrians for over 500 years, but we need to be worried about pirates.

Or we need to be worried about looking tough?

Sorry, I still don't see any in-game reasons why the Darrians would build them.

Could be a test bed ship, to rate the effectiveness of certain technologies. If we're only talking about one special vessel, it's easier to see how it might have been preserved as well.

Or, alternatively, they could have just gone through a phase of martially inclined leadership who squandered money on some ill-conceived and unnecessary military adventure.

I mean, it's not like that's unprecedented.

 

[Whipsnade]

Could be a test bed ship, to rate the effectiveness of certain technologies. If we're only talking about one special vessel, it's easier to see how it might have been preserved as well.

One special vessel or test bed would have been "preserved' closer to the main world and not squirreled away somewhere in the outer system only to be forgotten for 1200 years.

Which brings us to...

Or, alternatively, they could have just gone through a phase of martially inclined leadership who squandered money on some ill-conceived and unnecessary military adventure.

... an idea which just might explain not only why such warships were built but also what that cache of warships was squirreled away in the outer system only to be forgotten for 1200 years.

Rather than Pirates!, Rebels!, or Enemies!, it was a boondoggle, a bit of corporate welfare, some war scare sparked by incomplete and deliberately misunderstood data returned by a survey mission and stoked by Usual Suspects for the usual ulterior reasons, or some other kind of sociopolitical nonsense which saw a handful of spinal-armed capitals hurriedly built and just as hurriedly tucked away in the outer system as a political embarrassment.

Bravo, Leper Colony!

 

[aramis]

So the Darrians are going to build spinal-armed capital vessels because the locals on their versions of Alaska are getting stroppy?

Prior to WW2, did the US station any battleships or cruisers in Alaska to counter any grumbling? Hell, did they station anything there larger than a Coast Guard cutter? What sort of armed forces of any type were stationed there in 1939? A few Army rifle companies, some signal forces, and Navy seaplane base wasn't it? (Of course after WW2 more forces are stationed, not because of the locals but because of the Soviets.)

Actually, by 1939, it was a full regiment in each primary base (Wainright, Greely, and Richardson), plus attached air group of scouts, there were 4 AKs built in Seward, and a company of troops in seward, not from the erstwhile ad-hoc Alaska brigade.
In 1942, there were 13000 men stationed at Cold Bay...

there were 4 naval stations, including one at Dutch Harbor, one at Adak, one at Kodiak (now a USCG base), one at Seward (a paper tiger - a company of men to defend the shipyard, which had two functional drydocks and a wet working dock), and one further east. It was a routine patrol zone of PacFlt. At any given point pre-war, a cruiser and a couple destroyers were patrolling, not counting the routine half-dozen cutters.

Also - during WW2, Alaska WAS invaded. By Japan.

The US kept the lid on with a few patrol vessels, but the Darrians are going to need spinal-armed cruisers?



Pirates. In the Marches. One thousand years before the founding of the Third Imperium.

Any society less rigidly mind-invading that the Zhodani will generate would-be pirates. The pirates the darrians would have faced would have been homegrown...

As far as inhabited worlds go, we're looking at various Minor Race home worlds, Algine, Vanejen, and a few Zho worlds who didn't even notice the Darrians for over 500 years, but we need to be worried about pirates.

Or we need to be worried about looking tough?

see above...
Or are you considering the darrian mindset incapable of piracy?

Might I point you also at the roughly 50 thousand year old remains on Yoribund/Regina. Too new to be Ancients...

Sorry, I still don't see any in-game reasons why the Darrians would build them.

Because you are failing to grasp that the darrian culture wasn't unified until after the Maghiz.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, reasonably we have to conform to all of canon.

Some of the canon is:
a) The Darrians found some TL 16 warships built pre-Maghiz. (AM8, p17)
b) Probably a dozen or two is still in working order. (AM8, p17 & p24)
c) Those ships form a significant part of the Darrian Navy. (AM8, p24)
d) They tend to be used together, in massed formation, not spread out among the rest of the Navy as scouts or screens. (AM8, p24)

From TCS we can infer that a polity with the size of the Darrian Confederation can field a force of several hundred spinal mounts. In order for the dozen or so old ships to be a significant part of the navy, they have to be fairly powerful, probably with spinal mounts or multiple bays.

The only conclusion I can come to is that the Darrians, however utopian and peaceful, built some fairly powerful warships.

They might have been built as exploration ships or customs ships rather than warships, but they were still heavily armed.

 

[McPerth]

The terms used in the AM8 text preclude SDB's, Lluis.

And the fact they were forgotten after the Maghiz precludes (IMHO) jump capable ships, as they were probably all pressed to service when they tried to keep the contact with their colonies untill divided among them and mothballed when they understood that was not possible.

And, as said before, the use of the term warship does not preclude (again IMHO) the fact that they can be SDBs used as BRs, but it instead hints us that they are heavily armored and armed (heavy bays or spinals). After all, if you see the organization of the 154^th squadron (1 BT, 7 BRs, 7 escorts and fighters), which one of those ships will be refered as warships? Would not the Nolikians?

Whouldn't a monitor be refered as a warship?

Of course, they are jump capable, but as squadrons, not as individual ships (as whould a TCS contest squadron/fleet require). That's why I suggested those (at least 4) former merchants, if large enough, could now be used as tenders for the rest of them (I don't believe those merchants were non-jump capable, as it makes little sense).

There might be some heavy SDB's built at TL14 (in fact, I'd expect it), but the surviving ships are 4 merchants and 12 warships...

Where do you take this 12 warships number from?

The only numbers I know about them is the probably less than two dozen, of which at least 4 are former merchants armed with TL 14 weaponry. That leaves up to 19 warships, assuming this information is right.

The issue of spinals on those TL16 warships... whole 'nother matter. The text is unclear, but I'm on the "Probably at least one of the ships is likely to have one"... because AM 8 was written well into the Big Ship OTU paradigm.

This sounds more a metagaming reason than any logical one...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Canon about the Darrian's neigbours:

a) Zhodani were present in the Cronor subsector (Spinward Marches) in -2500. [AM8, p12]
b) Zhodani trader had been in contact with Vilani traders for 500 years, so were probably known to the Rule of Man and the Itzin. [AM4, p8]
c) The Itzin fleet surveyed the Spinward Marches and found a few Zhodani worlds, before settling on Darrian. [AM8, p8]
d) The Darrians (100 years later) did not make official contact with the Zhodani.
e) Vargr were present in the Gvurrdon sector (coreward of Spinward Marches) by -2800. [AM4, p8]
f) After travelling through Vland, Corridor, and Deneb, the Itzin are extremely unlikely to be unaware of the Vargr or their propensity for raiding.


The Itzin may, or may not, have told the Darrians about their distant neighbours. They may just have told the Darrians that there were powerful, potentially hostile aliens to coreward. They may have told the Darrians nothing. I guess that the Itzin who themselves fled chaos, left the Darrians in no doubt about that they were not alone in the Universe and that the Universe is a dangerous place.


The Darrians had a spawling interstellar presence covering several subsectors for over 400 years, just a few subsectors from the Vargr sphere. I guess the likelihood that they were raided by Vargr is greater than nonexisting.

The Darrians were not involved in any large-scale interstellar war, but some occasional skirmishes with raiders might be possible.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And the fact they were forgotten after the Maghiz precludes (IMHO) jump capable ships, as they were probably all pressed to service when they tried to keep the contact with their colonies untill divided among them and mothballed when they understood that was not possible

AM8, p24 talk about "starships" a little too often to be dismissed:

Thus, survivability and endurance can be inferred to be two of the characteristics that Darrian tech level 16 starships have.

Probably fewer than two dozen Darrian tech level 16 starships survive today.

In addition, a small percentage of surviving Darrian tech level 16 starships were not originally of military design.

The talk about starships does of course not mean that some of the TL 16 ships could be riders or monitors.

I would certainly call a monitor, a carrier, or a battle tender a warship. The TL 16 ships may be an odd mix of ships of different classes.

 

[Hyphen]

I really like that, David. Really, really, really like that. It's a perfect Traveller "wheels within wheels within wheels" moment.

Thank you, Bill! I like Hans' idea as well - and there's absolutely no reason why you can't have both.

I wonder if he ever finished writing it up. I wonder whatever happened to his slush pile.

Oh, I know. A friend passed away a few years ago, and I always wondered what happened to his notes from an old campaign of ours. :-(

 

[Hyphen]

I don’t see this as likely. While Darrians are told to be in the verge of TL17 when the Maghiz stuck, it’s likely that any TL17 ships they could have were prototypes, and so, unlikely to stil lbe funcional after a thousand years in storage and oer 800 uears in commision, and the repair/maintenance problems told about on a TL16 fleet would only be magnified by an exponential factor...

One suggestion (it may have been in the Regency Sourcebook, but I can't remember) was that one factor of the higher TL - admittedly something not covered in the design rules - is that the higher TL is more reliable. Otherwise they wouldn't even have the TL 16 ships still running around after all this time.

So, maybe they invented the e-Circuit. (RAPP, Donald P., Merchants & Merchandise, Paranoia Press, Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA, 1981, p 16). ;-) ;-)

"Outside the box, people, think OUTSIDE the box!!"

 

[whulorigan]

One suggestion (it may have been in the Regency Sourcebook, but I can't remember) was that one factor of the higher TL - admittedly something not covered in the design rules - is that the higher TL is more reliable. Otherwise they wouldn't even have the TL 16 ships still running around after all this time.

So, maybe they invented the e-Circuit. (RAPP, Donald P., Merchants & Merchandise, Paranoia Press, Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA, 1981, p 16). ;-) ;-)

"Outside the box, people, think OUTSIDE the box!!"

In T5, the Eternity Circuit Module is canon (TL25).

Eternity Circuit Module.
TL R, Size 5, 1000kg, MCr100. Displaces one ton.

Descended from the Molecular Dissembler, the ECM is a specialized molecular fabrication unit which requires administrative access to the ship’s computer. It performs three functions:

Installation. When installed, it studies the ship’s systems from the ship’s computer, using molecular analysis to record a genetic redundancy circuit for the ship’s configuration.

Scan. Periodically scans the ship’s systems for changes in state. New components are added to the overall configuration.

Restore. When a system is damaged, it uses the delta generated from the genetic circuit to gradually restore it to its original state, or as close as possible, via molecular fabrication. Restoration time is measured by Quality, which maps to the number of damage levels the module can repair in a 1-ton (or less) item in one day.

For example, a 1 ton sensor with a damage severity of 1 can be repaired by a Quality 1 module in 1 day. If the sensor has a damage severity of 2, it could be repaired by a Quality 1 module in 2 days. On the other hand, a 10 ton jump drive with a damage severity of 3 would be repaired by a Quality 1 module in 30 days, or a Quality 2 module in 15 days.

Access to raw materials is required for operation.

Perhaps an early TL16/17 version of some predecessor technology associated with automated makers . . .

 

[Hyphen]

Where exactly? I lack many books, but, AFAIK nowhere is this fleet described in canon, and nowhere is told that it is composed of jump capable ships (at least no more than IN, that is, at least in a alrge portion, formed by BT/BR combos).

"Darrian Secret Base"
"This, at least, is not a bluff. The Darrians have for centuries maintain [sic] a secret base, used by its high-technology mobile deterrent fleets and Special Branch star trigger detachments."
NILSEN, David, Regency Sourcebook, GDW, Bloomington, IL, USA, p 85.

And it also talked about "3 starships per world" being mothballed (p 31).

So in my mind (at least), this means starships.

 

[McPerth]

I postulate two things: the fabled TL 16 ships are just that - a fable. While they do have a number of TL 16 ships, the main purpose of all the talk around TL 16 armed ships is propaganda.

From AM8, page 24:

Those valuable ships are generally commited only when they will assure victory

As I understand that sentece, it means that they have been commited in the past, so, at least then, they were not a fable, though tear and wear (and lack of maintenance) may have attrited them to the point they are in Golden Era, making them good only as a bluff and propaganda factor (I guess their drives can be repaired if needed, so allowing them to show the flag from time to time to keep it, even if they are no longer combat worthy)...

AM8, p24 talk about "starships" a little too often to be dismissed.

So in my mind (at least), this means starships.

And, As I said before, we could find a ton of references to the IN assets as starships, while we know that at least a significant (and growing, according what is told of naval stategy in Goden Era) part of its combat power is on non-jump capable BRs...

The fact that a fleet's assets is refered as starships does not preclude many of them to be non jump capable, is just a generic word to mean all its space capable and power projection (and so able to interstellar mobility) ships (so excluiding their monitors and SDBs in system defense role, but the difference among a monitor and a BR is its tactical deployement, not its design or capabilities).

As long as they have jump capacity as a squadron, not as individual ships, I guess most people (and even navies) would refere colectivelly to them as starships.

As our Absent Friend Hans always said: It has to make sense.

(I'd like to have his hindight in this discussion)

OK, let's see what makes sense (all IMHO, YMMV):

Does it make sense that two dozen of jump capable ships were left collecting dust in the outer space of Darrian system when they were desespeate for shipping to maintain contact with their colonies?

Not much. It makes more sense that a squadron of heavy SDBs was stranded there when the Navy archives were damaged in the Maghiz and, being no need for them, they were forgotten about (or assumed destroyed in the flare).

For example, why do you think those warships found in 390 had been stockpiled in the outer system? (...) It's almost as if they wanted to hide them for some reason and then over time forgot where they were hidden.

Agreed, neither this makes too much sense. Even a deep reserve SDB squadron would be closer to the main system (that is what it has to defend), unless planned to fight guerrilla war when the system has fallen, but this in turn makes no sense in your capital and only industrial base, as if it falls you simply surrund (or are anihilated).

In any case, this is one of the few facts set on stone in canon (unless is a piece of missinformation to avoid telling where they really found, off course, wheels into wheels again), and, in any case, jump capable ships make even less sense tan SDBs for this hiding position (unless a pre-planed cache in case of a disaster stucks, as it the Maghiz did, but I don't expect even the Darrians to have this foresight).

The TL 16 ships may be an odd mix of ships of different classes.

Neither this makes too much sense to me.

An odd mix of ships stored together? This only would make sense in a mothballing storage, but I don't see any reason for the Darrians to have such TL16 (so cutting edge) ships in a mothballing facility. If such a facility existed, aside (again) from probably not being in the outer systems, where they cannot be even closely monitored, it would probably have lower TL (obsolete) ships, that are those you send into mothball (except extreme cases as when they mothballed their remaining ships, off course, but that did not seem the case).

If those ships were either a deep reserve SDB squadron or a hiden cache, the most likely possibility is for them to be at most of 2-3 different clases (plus some supply and support ships), even if only for maintenance reasons.

Now to sumarize my suggestion in this:

The ships found were deep reserve SDBs, probably with some supply ships and maybe jump shuttles (seen by many people as "merchants" as they are not combat ships (the reason they were stored in the outer system escapes me, but, as said, it's one of the few facts set in stone in canon, so I accept it at face value without questioning).

In the chaos of the Maghiz, when only jump capable ships were needed, they were forgotten about (the destruction of Darrian naval HQ in the flare helped to that).

In 390, either because someone digged out ancient HQ files or by chance, they are discovered and recovered.

Once found, they discovered they could be made operational, and, using the spares in the supply ships, maintained for a undeterminated time (hopefully enough for some spares to be built again). Either their own jump shuttles or by specially built (and lower TL) ships are used as tenders to give them strategical (interstellar) mobility, so becoming the elite core of the Darrian fleet.

I know this means changing the vision that we (incluiding myself until Robject made me think on it in the other thread) had on it, but Doesn't that make more sense?

When you look at all the canonical facts, even those not directly connected with the Darrians, when your inferences and deductions are predicated on logic and historical examples, and when you take great care to suggest as small a change as possible, then you have a workable explanation that can be used by the greatest number of people..

And, as odd as it might seem at first glance to most of us, too tied to previous assumptions and thinking, doesn't this keep with those requirements?

 

[mike wightman]

And your idea is fine for YTU, but the canon of AM8 mentions starships 6 times, warships 3 times and ships 8 times.
It never once mentions SDBs or riders/tender combos or monitors.

The two killer quotes are:

Thus, survivability and endurance can be inferred to be two of the characteristics that Darrian tech level 16 starships have. Probably fewer than two dozen Darrian tech level 16 starships survive today.

a small percentage of surviving Darrian tech level 16 starships were not originally of military design. At least four are reported to be merchant ships to which tech level 14 weaponry has been added. The implication is clear that tech level 16 ships

Digging into other canon:

(Note:
in naval parlance, the term ship is reserved for jump-capable vessels, while non-jump
capable vessels are referred to as boats, riders, or monitors).

There are five broad types of ship in service with the Imperial Navy: Scouts,
Escorts, Cruisers, Carriers, and Battleships.