• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Deploying Grav-Tanks and G-Carriers

Here's something else to think about, bits of it may drift off topic.

In the Regency Vehicle guide there is a meson artillery sled that can be "pressed into service" for planetary defence (shooting against ships) if linked to a better sensor system. In TA6 there is a (just over) 80dt meson artillery sled. In GURPS ground forces there is the Terrapin 10GJ meson sled.

Why not equip heavy fighters and small starships with these close range meson weapons? You could also rule that if they get close enough to a capital ship then the meson screen will not function (and how come a meson screen only affects incoming mesons?).
 
And one other thing. What happened to meson artillery in MT? Speaking of which the vehicle/ ship design for 10dt vessels ends up with does it have thruster plates, does it have a hardpoint weapon system or vehicle weapons? Either way the difference between a grav tank and a space fighter under MT rules is negligable(IMHO), just as B4 states.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
In the Regency Vehicle guide there is a meson artillery sled that can be "pressed into service" for planetary defence (shooting against ships) if linked to a better sensor system. In TA6 there is a (just over) 80dt meson artillery sled. In GURPS ground forces there is the Terrapin 10GJ meson sled.
Dunno about the TNE rules, but CT (Book 4) Meson-Artillery is somewhat short-ranged. So it might be useful as a ground attack weapon for fighters, but less so in space combat (especially as even a veritable Meson bay has a snowball's chance of hitting and penetrating screens).

Why not equip heavy fighters and small starships with these close range meson weapons? You could also rule that if they get close enough to a capital ship then the meson screen will not function (and how come a meson screen only affects incoming mesons?).
The way I see it, a meson screen works by accelerating the decay of mesons passing through it (for the moment ignoring the worms that are crawling out of the can that is TA7). The idea is to let incoming meson bundles explode harmlessly before they reach the ship. The decay rate is synchronized with your own meson fire, so it effectively does not hinder it. To ignore the screen, you will have to fly inside its operational radius, which probably is only a few kilometers, maybe a few dozen. This is so unlikely in space combat that it can be downright ignored. It might become possible when a medium-sized spaceship with a screen enters the planetary atmosphere.

Regards,

Tobias
 
OK I'll restate teh obvious, the Light fighters are virtually useless in space combat. the 10T fighter from book 2 the 6 ton fighter in Adventure 7 the 8 ton fighter in Adventure 4 and 7 the Rampart are all virtually useless in space combat. Any fighter that has a real shot at anything more space combat worthy than a Patrol Cruiser costs about half of what a Patrol Cruiser does. Unless you are putting armor on your fighter and a fairly large computer on it, ie the 50T Heavy Fighter from Suplement 9 at MCr105, they get ripped up. Primarily because of the auto crits you get when you hit them. Light fighters are obviously cannon they have so many examples of them. Even though they are all virtually useless in space combat. Forget about real Naval engagements.

Agility not speed is what I was talking about. An M1 Tank is fast, unlike fighters though with tanks Speed isn't necessarily life. How quick you can stop and start, change direction is important, perhaps even more important than actual speed. Starship agility in Traveller is a very important factor it translates directly into difficulty to hit the target. Which says to me that the things can turn, virtually on a dime. We aren't talking about F22s here, more like Harriers with the armor and sustained firepower of a tank. And the combat endurance that runs out when the crew needs a break. A combination of an M1, an SR71, an Appache and a virtually unlimited endurance and ammo supply. A Ground pounders nightmare.

An airplane has to fly faster than a helicopter because it relies on aerodynamics to stay in the air. Obviously Starships and Grav vehicles don't rely on aerodynamics to stay up. Comparing Thruster plates to grav power the difference appears to be that truster plates don't require a large mass in proximity to function. Maneuver drives are not rocket engines. (Or they would obviously require fuel instead of power.) They appear to be an advance on the same technology.

Quite frankly until recently I haven't been able to get my hands on Striker, though I am considering getting it with the reprints now available. I don'tknow what the Trepida's stats are in Striker, never used them, in MT they weren't all that impressive and they were expensive for what you were getting. The 10T fighter seemed to fill the role better, especially a modified 10T fighter. In T20 the same situation applies. The light fighter still has no real space combat role (though it is better than what it was)they have to be there to support the Ground Pounder. In MT the performance of most, less than starship weapons, didn't do much to starships, on the other hand a starship pulse laser ripped through an armored column like it was tissue paper. (Makes sense considering the power requirements and scale of the weapon systems.) T20 is similar with the damage scaling.

Am I to understand that Striker wasn't set up like that? If so then Striker didn't integrate combined arms well. (And I don't just mean tanks, infantry and airplanes.) MT Tried to integrate it fully with the single vehicle design rules that required a modern computer to run, and since it was off the shelves before the home computer was anywhere near powerful enough...


I am now going to buy Striker so I can read through it and see where the design flaws in my ground support are.


Oh and Soviet Doctrine does call for Hinds to be used exactly in the same role and the same manner as Tanks. They are just faster and less well armored. A Trade off that the Soviets were more than willing to accept. That was the design philosophy. The practical problem they had when using them in this manner was they weren't as sustainable on the battlefield as a tank.
 
Light fighters are obviously cannon they have so many examples of them.
This is a CANNON:

http://orgs.unt.edu/talons/rush/cannon.jpg

The damn word is CANON. Sorry, pet peeve.

Starship agility in Traveller is a very important factor it translates directly into difficulty to hit the target. Which says to me that the things can turn, virtually on a dime.
CT starship agility = powered thrust. MT apparently changed this (and charged right into the concurrent problems).

Obviously Starships and Grav vehicles don't rely on aerodynamics to stay up.
Grav Vehicles not. Starships? A Thruster plate is for all purposes just that: A reactionless thruster. This is indeed a more common term in SF for the same.
I don'tknow what the Trepida's stats are in Striker, never used them, in MT they weren't all that impressive and they were expensive for what you were getting. The 10T fighter seemed to fill the role better, especially a modified 10T fighter.
Oh sure, there are 3 reasons for this:
a) MT rules are not crunchy enough for modeling combat vehicles.
b) The Trepida in MT was an abysmal design.
c) The 10-ton fighter grossly violated the design rules.

Oh and Soviet Doctrine does call for Hinds to be used exactly in the same role and the same manner as Tanks.
Yeah, and as you apparently know yourself, doctrine didn't quite work out.

Regards,

Tobias
 
MT vs Striker: MT has a damage stat; Striker didn't. Only 4 datapoints don't match up with striker.

MT: Vehicles over 10 Td can use the gravitic suspensions.
All craft can mount any "Non-hardpoint" weapons it caares to; a hardpoint weapon requires a hardpoint (or more).
In fact, under MT (& TNE, for that matter), I put the VRF gauss under the chin of the S2 design I posted to the XBML during the days of the "Split Lists".

Agility is useful off-axis thrust under MT. I dislike MT's definition of Agility, but I understand it. It appears to be a result of the line of thought presented in Starship operator's manual.

T-plates have one further disadvantage: they can't generate >6 G's basal on-line thrust. Gravitic suspension/transmissions can generate far more than this. Now, MT T-plates, unlike Gravitic thrust, can generate up to 400 percent thrust on axis (for short periods), 100% at 90° off axis, and 25% at 180° off axis. (SSOM) I know why they did it; it allows 1G thrust craft to take off from even 3G worlds fairly easily. The rules don't go much above 3G at surface in WBH.

Also, arguments about "effectiveness of fighters" in MT designs is kind of a poor comparison; all the rules are present (when Ref's Companion is counted) for using the vehicular combat rules in place of the HG tables; under such a situation, 10Td fighters with a decent weapon actually DO add up to a serious threat IN LARGE NUMBERS. Plus, target size modifiers should be considered... and make fighters far better at hitting than being hit... This is because MT is (aside from the HG variant ship combat tables) a hit point system.

in TNE & T4: The 5 Ton fighter can be a viable TL 15 combattant. Don't bother with armor, just give it massive ammounts of thrust; it is small enough that any hit will kill it anyway.

T20: In T20, with HP, and all its wholesome quirkiness of weapons tables, fighters again can become a niggling nuisance as they should be. A long term threat, and the reason cap ships need either fighters or small weapons.

Now, in T20 we have the scaling issue. Yeah, vehicular guns CAN hurt ships. But not well.
 
T20: In T20, with HP, and all its wholesome quirkiness of weapons tables, fighters again can become a niggling nuisance as they should be.
I agree completely, especially if you armour them and equip them with a pulse laser or a fusion gun and a NBPL missile.
A long term threat, and the reason cap ships need either fighters or small weapons.
I'm not so sure one fighter could actually hit another if it has a sufficiently high AC (agility, armour, chameleon option{if allowed} and ecm/auto evade programs running), low factor weapon batteries would have the same difficulty in hitting these pests.
 
Hello.
In T20 fighters can be very dangerous but only in large numbers (this is called overwelming the defence).
You do not link the fighters weapons to get large USP's you fire each seperatly and try for the crit, you only need several crits and the ship even a BB is in trouble (every crit hurts, some just more than others), and that laser hit just blew armour of to.
Yes mesons kill with a hit but those 10 ton fighters just got dangerous and it also makes those escorts dangerous, You cant just charge through them with impunity and laugh (they become a bit like destroyers, A joke until that torpedo hits, also mines become viable (for guarding those gas giants).
Yes this is munchkinism but so what it's within the rules (the rules almost guarantee this will happen).
I await the cries of horror and outrage, mixed with what a good idea.
Bye.
 
Originally posted by Lionel Deffries:
Hello.
In T20 fighters can be very dangerous but only in large numbers (this is called overwelming the defence).
You do not link the fighters weapons to get large USP's you fire each seperatly and try for the crit, you only need several crits and the ship even a BB is in trouble (every crit hurts, some just more than others), and that laser hit just blew armour of to.
Yes mesons kill with a hit but those 10 ton fighters just got dangerous and it also makes those escorts dangerous, You cant just charge through them with impunity and laugh (they become a bit like destroyers, A joke until that torpedo hits, also mines become viable (for guarding those gas giants).
Yes this is munchkinism but so what it's within the rules (the rules almost guarantee this will happen).
I await the cries of horror and outrage, mixed with what a good idea.
Bye.
Essentially, any non-HG ruleset allows fighters to be a threat to some degree against any size vessel.

Now, for the WHY of fighters: unter CT/MT/T20, there are hardpoint limits, and thus limits to weapons per tonnage. So, you can only fit one tripple turret per 100 tons. But, a fighter, taking 10-12 tons, carries a tripple turret, and so cargo space can be diverted to fighter bays, to exceed the turret limits. If you use the "Grouping Fighters" idea (not an uncommon house rule IME even for HG players) you wind up with 100 tons of fighter bay providing 6-9 (depending upon crewing) hard points, which are independant of the vessel...

In short, force multiplication.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
Essentially, any non-HG ruleset allows fighters to be a threat to some degree against any size vessel.
And that's why I looooove HG!
IMHO other rules just make concessions towards Star Wars-ish Space Fighter heroics, which I find thoroughly inappropriate for the feel I envision for Traveller.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Originally posted by Tobias:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aramis:
Essentially, any non-HG ruleset allows fighters to be a threat to some degree against any size vessel.
And that's why I looooove HG!
IMHO other rules just make concessions towards Star Wars-ish Space Fighter heroics, which I find thoroughly inappropriate for the feel I envision for Traveller.

Regards,

Tobias
</font>[/QUOTE]HG is actually one of the LEAST realistic rulesets; it fails to account for cumulative damage, tends towards a few naarrow design strategies, and completely ignores maneuver as an element of combat.
 
I'm trying to use the Book 5: High Guard rules to design a non-modular "armored assault shuttle" for transporting an entire company of (~15-dton) grav tanks. Obviously, this is going to be a very big shuttle -- well over 100 dtons -- so it's going to need to have a 20-dton bridge. On the other hand, its crew isn't likely to ever be aboard for more than a few hours at a time -- just long enough to get close to the planet's surface, disgorge its brood of grav tanks, and then retreat back to its jump-capable mother ship up in a relatively safe high orbit.

Here are my questions:

1) Do I need to install any staterooms?
I'd say no.

2) Do I get any "free" acceleration couches for having a bridge installed?
I'd say yes -- but only two. So for a minimal crew of 4 (a pilot, an engineer/supercargo, and two gunners), I'd say that all I need is the standard 20-dton bridge, and two extra acceleration couches. After all, the small craft bridge inc. two couches.

3) Do the crews of the tanks require acceleration couches of their own?
I'd say no -- the tanks have their own life-support systems, inc. some combination of nice soft padded seats and inertial dampening.

Does this sound fair?
 
why not use low-performance, heavily armed, heavily armored ship's boats in place of tanks? they're just as good, usable anywhere, more agile during a drop, and independently deployable/recoverable.

if the deployment vessel does not have any cabins it should at least have a life support system capable of sustaining all crew for any duration. in war things go wrong, and it's good to be able to tolerate recovery delays.

all standard bridges start with two accel couches. any others require extra tonnage.

regarding couches, the tank crews should be fine where they are.
 
Now who said anything about realistic?
And HG is, shall we understate, very abstract.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Originally posted by marginaleye:
I'm trying to use the Book 5: High Guard rules to design a non-modular "armored assault shuttle" for transporting an entire company of (~15-dton) grav tanks. Obviously, this is going to be a very big shuttle -- well over 100 dtons -- so it's going to need to have a 20-dton bridge. On the other hand, its crew isn't likely to ever be aboard for more than a few hours at a time -- just long enough to get close to the planet's surface, disgorge its brood of grav tanks, and then retreat back to its jump-capable mother ship up in a relatively safe high orbit.
You answered your own questions well enough, but I think you should reconsider the idea of an "armored assault shuttle" that's going to land an entire company of tanks into a combat situation (assuming that is what you mean an "armored assault shuttle" to do). An entire company of tanks is too vital an asset to be risked on one possible lucky shot by the enemy. Such a large vessel is also more likely to be picked out as different by the enemy defenses.

I believe that the standard will be to have one "armored assault shuttle" that can carry one grav tank or the equivalent of infantry (a platoon or so) and just have enough of them to land whatever forces you see fit. If one vessel can land armor or infantry it'll be much harder for the enemy to pick out just which landers to destroy and more of everything should make it down, especially with the increased number of targets for him to shoot at.

Such a shuttle should have good armor, high Agility, and the best computer possible (which will still wind up making it a pretty big "small craft."
 
But wouldn't a "one tank per shuttle" system be really, really, really expensive?

And, to use a "real-world analogy" (which is, admittedly, suspect -- just look at how justifiably pathetic fighters are in the Traveller universe), doesn't each "landing craft tank" carry several tanks?
 
Yes, one tank per shuttle would be more expensive, and it's possible that it might be two or three tanks a shuttle (a platoon, maybe) but I just can't see risking a whole tank company in one vehicle unless you have some system that gives that one vehicle a good chance of getting down intact.

Modern landing craft carry only one tank each (because today's tanks are so d*mn heavy). Soviet-era landing craft did carry a platoon of vehicles, but I think they were APCs, not tanks, though I could be wrong.

WW2 LSTs (Landing Ship, Tank; also known as Large Slow Target) did carry many tanks, but I'm pretty sure they were not used in assault landings, only when the beach had been secured. Most WW2 armor hit the beach in the LCT (Landing Craft, Tank) which carried only one or two tanks, as I recall.

Look at the unit organizations in the OTU. Imperial Marine Regiments had exactly one tank company in the whole regiment. They're surely not going to risk all of that in one shuttle. Not to mention that if they do land all in one shuttle, they all have to land at one place, which limits your ability to divide your tank company up to support all the infantry companies, which is the function of the tank company in such a regiment.
 
WW2 LSTs (Landing Ship, Tank; also known as Large Slow Target) did carry many tanks, but I'm pretty sure they were not used in assault landings, only when the beach had been secured. Most WW2 armor hit the beach in the LCT (Landing Craft, Tank) which carried only one or two tanks, as I recall.
Not being a military historian, I was unaware of the distinction between the landing ship tank (LST) and landing craft tank (LCT). I stand corrected. I suppose deploying grav tanks in platoon-sized shuttles is probably the best compromise between cheapness and survivability.

Not to mention that if they do land all in one shuttle, they all have to land at one place, [emphasis added] which limits your ability to divide your tank company up to support all the infantry companies, which is the function of the tank company in such a regiment.
In response to this point:
Grav tanks are capable of flying at supersonic speeds. Deploying them could simply involve the shuttle flying fast through the atmosphere, opening a big hatch without slowing down (much), dropping out one or more of the tanks, and then closing the big hatch and either moving on to the next "deployment site" or retreating back up into space. :cool:
 
I think you're right that a platoon-carrying shuttle is probably about right. In a way, it depends on just how much money the Imperium is willing to spend to get the grunts down safely.

And I know the grav tanks are supersonic, but they'd have to fly above Nap of Earth to do so, and that might make them targets. Also, the Imperial landing sites might be on opposite sides of the planet, or even in different star systems. Marine regiments are often broken up into battalion-sized task forces that act independently. If you have your one and only tank company landing in one shuttle, you can only give that company to one of your task forces, and the others have to make do without heavy armor. If you land your tank company in 3 or 4 platoon-sized shuttles, you can assign a tank platoon to every task force. This flexibility alone is worth the price.

Something just occurred to me, though.

Having platoon-level flexibility might be worth it only for units like the Imperial Marines. Larger units that expect to operate as large units (say, an Imperial Army lift infantry division with several tank battalions organic to it) might well use company-sized shuttles to land their armor since they intend to use them as companies.

So maybe the Marines use platoon-size landers (or even individual or two-vehicle landers) and the Army uses company-size shuttles. It's possible, at least.
 
Back
Top