Discussing the vanilla CT combat system...

[atpollard]

1. Book 1 systems are seriously unbalanced. Here are some careers with average number of skills, and survival chance (after 4 terms):

Scouts -- 6 skills; 11.5% chance of survival; 48.22% if END 9+

Scouts earn 2 skills per term plus a free pilot-1, so a 4 term scout should have 9 skills. Are your results weighted based on survival?

 

[tbeard1999]

Scouts earn 2 skills per term plus a free pilot-1, so a 4 term scout should have 9 skills. Are your results weighted based on survival?

No, the survival % is broken out. I just made a mistake. I'll revise accordingly.

 

[tbeard1999]

Okay, I've re-run my number crunching to include reenlistment and survival rolls, and here's what I get. Chance listed is chance of surviving and reinlisting through 4 terms.

Navy -- 18%; 34% if Int 7+ (58.3% of characters); 6.2 skills
Marines -- 10%; 27% if End 8+ (41.6% of characters); 6-7 skills
Army -- 10%; 18% if Edu 6+ (72.2% of characters); 8.6-9 skills
Scout -- 11%; 44% if End 9+ (27.7% of characters); 9 skills
Merchant -- 37%; 69% if Int 7+ (58.3% of characters); 7 skills
Other -- 28%; 52% if Int 9+ (27.7% of characters); 6 skills

As with survival rates, reenlistment rates vary wildly. Scouts have almost no chance of surviving, but if they do, reenlistment is easy. Army survival is easy, reenlistment is hard. Since most referees treat a failed survival roll as equivalent to a failed reenlistment roll, the above proportions usefully describe the character generation system's outcomes. Comments:

1. It's foolish to take a career that you aren't suited for. In other words, be sure you at least get the positive survival DM. Even better, also have the positive commission DM and promotion DM.

2. Supplement Four is right, at least regarding military careers. There's a <50% chance of making it through 4 terms with the Army, Navy, Marines and Scouts. In fact, this is true of making it through 3 terms for Army, Navy, Marines and Scouts with End 8-. For these careers, the average service will be 2-3 terms before dying or failing to reenlist. For long careers, Merchants are the best, with 69% if the character has Int 7+.

3. The careers are still unbalanced, but not so much as it first appeared. Examples:

An Army character will average 7-8 skills for 2-3 terms.

A scout will die quickly unless he has End 9+. If he has that, he'll last about 3 terms. He'll get 7 skills for his trouble.

A merchant will average 5-6 terms and get 8-9 skills.

Marines are hosed. They'll average 2-3 terms before being killed or kicked out (if they have End 8+) and get about 5 skills. A marine with End 7- has a death wish second only to Scouts (note this if you roll up a crappy character). He'll make it 1.5 terms on average.

If you want characters to be roughly balanced at the start of a campaign, you should probably steer clear of Book 1.

Book 4+ probably won't be much better, by the way. I've noted the shocking disparity in survival between Naval branches and the disparity in skills between Army, Marines and Navy.

 

[tbeard1999]

Unbalanced?

Rot?

This isn't a game where all careers are equal. It isn't supposed to be. Otherwise, it'd be like the D6 Star Wars system where all characters start out with the same amount of "dice" (where the careers just re-arrange the same number of dice).

Don't get me wrong. I love the D6 Star Wars game. It's one of the best I've ever played. Fun. Suits Star Wars impeccably.

But, Traveller? It's not supposed to be "fair".

I prefer it that way.

I don't think that the question is necessarily one for the referee. My question is "would the players prefer it that way if they knew the underlying probabilities?" A question that would be for the referee is "would these probabilities have an undesirable effect on players' choice of characters in your campaign?"

 

[tbeard1999]

Another thing that now seems apparent from my number crunching of Book 1 is that the authors apparently considered about 6-7 skills to be the average number of skills for a character.

 

[atpollard]

Only slightly off topic, but the trade-off in survival vs re-enlistment and the common 'no death' house rule suggests that survival and re-enlistment could have been combined into a single roll to continue in the career with no effect but to streamline char-gen.

Mongoose should take note.

 

[Supplement Four]

Only slightly off topic, but the trade-off in survival vs re-enlistment and the common 'no death' house rule suggests that survival and re-enlistment could have been combined into a single roll to continue in the career with no effect but to streamline char-gen.

Mongoose should take note.

I do believe, though, that you'll run into skill bloat if you do this. It'll break the 2D system (characters will be too skilled, on average, making too many throws).

The one thing you can do, though, is give a character a lot of skills--but try to make it hard for single skills to get high levels.

Still...if a character has a lot of skills at Skill-1 and Skill-2, though, that's a pretty awesome CT character.

I should note, though, to be fair, that Mongoose has a -3 DM if the character isn't skilled. CT doesn't really have this (typically, there's no requirement to attempt a task--you don't even need the skill). So, MGT's modifier will help combat skill bloat.

You'd have to do a detailed statistical analysis to see the true picture, though.

 

[atpollard]

I do believe, though, that you'll run into skill bloat if you do this. It'll break the 2D system (characters will be too skilled, on average, making too many throws).

The one thing you can do, though, is give a character a lot of skills--but try to make it hard for single skills to get high levels.

Still...if a character has a lot of skills at Skill-1 and Skill-2, though, that's a pretty awesome CT character.

I should note, though, to be fair, that Mongoose has a -3 DM if the character isn't skilled. CT doesn't really have this (typically, there's no requirement to attempt a task--you don't even need the skill). So, MGT's modifier will help combat skill bloat.

You'd have to do a detailed statistical analysis to see the true picture, though.

I agree about the need for a detailed analysis before making such a drastic change.

Skill bloat could be easily avoided by making the single roll harder so careers still average only 2 or 3 terms. No death but harder re-enlistments - like the army.

 

[tbeard1999]

I do believe, though, that you'll run into skill bloat if you do this. It'll break the 2D system (characters will be too skilled, on average, making too many throws).

You are correct if the system allows for second careers. The reason is that while both death and failed reeinlistment end the current career, death would also end the future career.

But if you prohibit multiple careers, *and* if you don't enforce death in character generation, then the two numbers can be combined, since they have the same effect.

 

[Supplement Four]

But if you prohibit multiple careers, *and* if you don't enforce death in character generation, then the two numbers can be combined, since they have the same effect.

Paranoia Press had a fantastic solution, I've always thought, in the two books they put out with character generation in them.

Instead of having the character die when the Surival Throw was bricked, what they did was require a throw on a chart.

It's a form of the Optional Surival Throw, but what I like about it is that there are consequences.

See, with the Survival Throw as written in CT, a player could just keep killing his PC until he got one he really liked. That's a little bit of a problem if you're not playing with a mature gamer who wouldn't do something like that (and play what he got, even if the guy was crap).

OTOH, as I've already pointed out earlier in the thread, the Optional Surival Throw really isn't that great a choice because it removes all the risk from character generation. Players will typically go 3-4 terms, because the risk is small (throwing on the aging table in term 4). When you enforce the standard Survival Throw, you tend to see characters go 1-2 terms because they don't want to get their character (if they like him) killed.

Paranoia's brilliant move was to do this--a required roll on a chart that had a chance to kill of the character, but more than likely would just remove character benefits.

What I like about this is that it solves all problems. Players who don't like their PCs aren't "rewarded" by getting that one killed and trying again. Typically, a failed Survival Throw does not mean death. But, the RISK is still there--and it's probably even more risk then when enforcing the standard Survival Rule because characters can be hurt by it (and players will have to live with their hurt PC).

Here's what I'm talking about. This is from the Scouts career presented in Paranoia's book, Scouts & Assassins.

2  Death
3  Desertion/Cowardice   -4 Muster Out Rolls
4  Mutiny                      -3 Muster Rolls
5  Insubordination          -2 Muster Rolls
6  Physically Unfit           -1 Muster Roll
7  Striking a Superior   -2DM on Muster Rolls/ -2DM on first Patron Encounters
8  Drunkenness           -1DM on Muster Rolls/ +1 Carousing Skill
9  Other Disciplinary Act   -1DM on Muster Rolls
10 Psychologically Unfit 
11 Branch Service Transfer   All Muster Rolls on new Branch tables.
12 Branch Request Transfer   Both Muster tables available.

I think this would be a great idea to expand upon, coming up with a table with slightly harsher results. I'd like to see some chance of stats being reduced. I also like result #8 where the character actually receives a Carousing skill.

The ultimate would be to make a unique, tailored table like this for each career. That way, each career would have its own results. The more dangerous careers (like being in the Army) would have higher probability of damaging stats permanently. Civilian careers, on the other hand, would probably look more like the one above.

I'm sure just one chart could be conceived as a one-size-fits-all table that would fit all CT careers. But, the unique-table-per-career idea is what appeals to me most.



When I set up new campaigns, I tend to "customize" chargen a bit based on the character's homeworld (see the article in my sig). Maybe the Army is not "available" as a choice because the world Pop is too low. Maybe pre-enlistment college is available to everyone based on the world's culture.

Doing things like this in my campaigns tend to give characters from certain worlds a certain "flavor". The poor belters from Patinir look fondly at the lucky PCs who were born on Aramis. And the Aramisians tend to be a bit more "snotty and up-ety" because of their place in the social pecking order of the sub-sector.

Making these Surival Charts could only add to this.

It could be "fun" to create them, too.





(Hey, anybody notice how we've graduated from discussing CT Combat to CT Character Generation?)

 

[Mithras]

If we assume that 6 skills is 'enough' for a playable character, what is the chance of surviving 2 terms in Book 5 (Line Branch) to gain about the same number of skills as a 4 term Book 1 character?

PS. Thank you both for your hard work on this, and for toning the rhetoric back down to a polite discussion.

Seconded. I appreciate all of this statistical analysis, tbeard 1999 and S4. THanks for keeping it going, and not getting all raggy!

 

[Mithras]

As you've said before, everyting in CT is intricately connected...

(Hey, anybody notice how we've graduated from discussing CT Combat to CT Character Generation?)

 

[dean]

Good discussion

Having just read through all the posts in the excellent discussion and analysis of the merits of the various chargen methods in CT, I have to say I am impressed at the veracity and loyalty both S4 and tbeard have exhibited to their respective points-of-view, while still maintaining general civility and respect for the other individual. Bravo to both of you!

That said, here's a couple of points I'll toss in for consideration.

(1) Re-enlistment rolls should be more promotion dependant. The longer you serve the more rank you should be achieving, especially in the officer corps. Long term enlistees are generally the ones who are successful (gain rank) and the dregs who can't make it to sergeant or captain in 8-12 years are drummed out as deadweight. No army wants to have 12-year-veteran privates.

Now, this would not necessarily "correct" the problems in LBB1 Army careers, as they seem to get promoted at a high rate, but it may solve the problem of "skill bloat" by introducing a negative DM to those characters whose promotions are not in line with their longevity in service, especially for LLB 4-5 characters.

(2) IMTU, the house rule has always been (if the player wishes) to have a failed survival roll to have a non-fatal deleterious effect upon the character. This usually resulted in loss of limb and an accompanying reduction in physical stats. This may not work if YTU is rife with “bionic” limbs, but in keeping with the spirit of the game we usually just made them standard prosthesis with fully functional parts, but not as strong or dexterous as the lost part. Adds a bit of character to the characters as well. Also possible were such goodies as loss of an eye, etc., or some medical condition that would require treatments or medication (Achilles’ heel, anyone? Also good for adventure hooks). Obviously, mustering out was also required.


Happy Travelling!

 

[tbeard1999]

Good observations, dean. I think that if I were gonna revise the Book 1 chargen system, here's how I'd go about it:

1. Random attributes generation is fine with me, but I do get tired of statistically unbelievable characters that seem to appear consistently with certain players. Unlike Supplement Four, I do not make a game session out of character generation. So to solve that problem, howsabout giving the characters their following prerolled attribute numbers (let them arrange them as they like): 12, 10, 7, 7, 7, 5. (Or whatever. I'd make the average about 8 or so, so that the player won't feel cheated). This particular mix means that the character will be really good at one attribute, very good at another, and pretty lousy at one.

2. Let the player pick his career. I don't like frustrating my players. If he wants to play a Marine, I don't care to force him to play a Merchant.

3. Give the player 3 terms in his career for free. Regardless of commissions or promotions, give him 3 skills in term 1 and 2 per term thereafter. Let him roll for commissions, promotions, and skills. Me, I'd let him pick his skills, but only let him take 2 skills at level 3+. And if he picks, no Jack of all Trades.

4. If the player wants a 4th term, let him take it, but *require* a loss of 1 from 2 physical attributes. Ditto for a 5th term. No 6th term.

5. Muster out normally.

 

[Supplement Four]

Unlike Supplement Four, I do not make a game session out of character generation.

You should absolutely try this, though! You really don't know what you're missing. It is so much fun!

It actually makes character generation a blast--instead of necessary paperwork.

When approached the right way, in the hands of a good game master, I haven't found a player yet that doesn't find themselves surprised at how fun chargen was--how it was a game session that covered multiple years of the character's life.




GM:

"Alright, you're 18 years old. You've grown up on Alell, with its ultra-high law level and Vilani-influenced governmental system. Traditional family roles are not observed on your homeworld. All citizens of the world are considered subjects of the state. So, you never really knew your mother or father. Strict limits on birthing are set by the government, and your childhood was spent as a "number" in a state cradle, just like everyone else's. I can see by your initial SOC throw, though, that you earned your adult name, disgarding the "number", when you were 12 years old. You've showed promise, and the state is rewarding that with options. If you want to attend the state college, you've obtained the right. Highly educated persons on Alell tend to earn more favors from the government. Of course, the Alell State Army is always an option, too. You've never known anyone who didn't receive permission to join the state defense force."

PLAYER:

"I'm interested in following a merchant career. Is that possible?"

GM:

"Certainly. You must petition the state, though. Do you want to go through that process?"

PLAYER:

"Yes. Alell has a thin, tainted atmosphere. Everyone wears helmets when outdoors. I've seen holos where, on other worlds, where people breath the air! What do I have to do to make a petition."

GM:

(Consulting the enlistment throw for the Merchants...) "Throw 7+ for the petition to be granted. (Looking at the INT DM). Your IQ scores will help with the petition, so take a +2 DM on it."

PLAYER:

(Rolls Merchant enlistment of 5+...) "Hey! I made it!"

GM:

"Your petition for employment with one of the merchant spacer companies has been accepted. Congratulations! One of the conditions, though, when petitions such as this are granted, is that Alell citizenship must be forfeit. You'll no longer call Alell your home. Space...travelling between the stars...that will be your new home now. The years go by. Let's see how you did."

PLAYER:

(Rolls Survival...) "I lived! Four years off Alell now. I see my character's attitude start changing. He still has some of his upbringing on Alell showing through in his personality, but he's not the man he used to be. He's been exposed now to so many other types of cultures. Some of them repel him, of course. But, some also start to make him think, for the first time in his life, that Alell's strict form of government may not be the best way to spend a life.

"Let's see if I obtained a commission this term..."







See how much "meat" this can put into a game? It's a form of roleplaying. Have you ever played the Exit Visa adventure in the Traveller Book, or the Zilan Wine adventure in the Traveller Adventure? My way of character generation is actually quite close to these stye adventures.

When we get done with chargen, playing it this way, the player as a deep, deep understanding of his character.

It adds so much to roleplaying.

It's gold.

I highly recommend it.

I'll never do Traveller character generation the boring old way ever again.