Easy Fix to CT Combat System -- Double Tap

[tbeard1999]

Mentioned this in another thread, but it's worthy of its own thread.

IMHO, it is way too easy in CT to get (effectively) automatic hits.

The CT combat system is so fragile is that the skill, armor & range modifiers are too numerous and too high for a 2d6 system. With a base "to hit" number of 8+ (41% chance), a net +4 modifier raises this to a 4+ (91% chance). So, you wind up with weapons that have an effectively 100% chance of hitting.

Automatic weapons seem particularly prone to this. An ACR on auto at medium range needs a 1+ (!) to hit an unarmored target. And this is before skill modifiers and attribute modifiers. Even against combat armor, it needs a 7+. A Gauss Rifle on auto at medium range needs a -3 or better (!!) against an unarmored target and a 4+ against combat armor.

Even the humble SMG and Automatic Rife are really too accurate -- at medium range, 0+ vs no armor; 8+ (SMG) or 7+ (AR) vs Cloth; 9+ vs Combat armor.

To mitigate this, I propose the "Double Tap (tm)" system:

Require 2 rolls (base 8+ on each).

One to hit, with weapon range modifiers, electronic/telescopic sights, attribute DMs and skill level modifiers applied.

One to penetrate, with weapon armor modifiers applied.

I'd also make a natural 2 or 3 an automatic fail, so that any attack has a 16% chance of missing.

So, compare a man with Auto Rifle-2 firing at a cloth armored target at medium range. Assume no to hit mods for attributes.

In straight CT, he needs a 5+ to hit and cause damage (83% chance). +2 for skill, +2 for range, -1 for cloth.

But using the Double Tap system, he would need a 4+ to hit and a 9+ to penetrate. A 25.4% chance of causing damage.

Against a target with no armor, in CT he'd need a -2 or better. +2 for skill, +2 for range, +6 for no armor.

Using the Double Tap system, he'd need a 4+ to hit and a 4+ to penetrate -- 84% chance.

Against a target with combat armor, in CT he'd need a 7 or better (58%). +2 for skill, +2 for range, -3 for combat armor.

Using the Double Tap system, he'd need a 4+ to hit and a 10+ to penetrate -- 15% chance, which seems more reasonable given that combat armor is the best armor available.

If he had a Book 4 ACR, in CT he'd need a 5+ to hit a target in combat armor (72%) -- +2 for skill, +2 for range, -1 for combat armor.

Using the Double Tap system, he'd need a 4+ to hit and a 9+ to penetrate -- 25% chance, which seems more reasonable given that combat armor is at least 1 TL above the ACR.

If he had a Book 4 Gauss Rifle, in CT he'd need a 2+ to hit a target in combat armor (100%) -- +2 for skill, +4 for range, +0 for combat armor.

Using the Double Tap system, he'd need a 4+ to hit and a 8+ to penetrate -- 38% chance. You'll need a plasma or fusion gun to consistently penetrate combat armor, which seems about right to me.

 

[hdan]

That's a great idea. I think I like it better than other edition's solutions such as MgT, in which armor acts as damage resistance.

It's certainly well worth playtesting.

Some additional thoughts:

It should also be easy enough to recreate the weapon/armor modifier table as an "Armor Save" table so that you can simply roll two pairs of dice at once, check the first pair for the skill hit and then the second for the armor penetration.

A Referee could save himself time when rolling larger combats by first rolling penetrations to rule out certain characters so that the more intricate series of modifiers can be ignored. Players would probably not be willing to do that though, knowing how people like to add up their modifiers.

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm - definitely deserves its own thread.

My first thought is you've got a really nice looking system here.

My second thought is why I never thought of it

I'm definitely going to try it out...

 

[Dragoner]

why double tap? that is just two shots? doesn't make sense.

imo, I just went with simple rules that are covered in errata as well, thus it was easy for a firer to get -7's or so firing at someone evading+firing from behind cover.

 

[far-trader]

why double tap?

I'm sure it's just a catchy name, nothing to do with the alike named two shots. And it is a catchy name.

I'm interested but leery of more than doubling the time to run a firefight. I need to look at it closer but wonder if the same effect might still be achievable in a single roll method.

 

[Dragoner]

I'm sure it's just a catchy name, nothing to do with the alike named two shots. And it is a catchy name.

I'm interested but leery of more than doubling the time to run a firefight. I need to look at it closer but wonder if the same effect might still be achievable in a single roll method.

Actually it is, two rolls = two shots, for double tap I guess.

IMO, I find a lot of people don't understand certain things about guns. Some of it is very realistic, say at 10m, I will not miss with my CZ-85, Kimber, AK, Bushmaster, 12 gauge, etc.; maybe with my 30-06, but then at 100m, I won't miss with my 30-06. So if someone is just standing there, yes, they will probably get shot.

I just apply the errata and my houserule that you can fire while evading, which piles on the negative dm's.

 

[far-trader]

Actually it is, two rolls = two shots...

My admittedly fast read took it as two rolls for each attack broken into "to hit" and "to penetrate" instead of one roll for each attack per the original rules.

EDIT: simplified the language per my brain dead eureka about "attack"

 

[Dragoner]

My admittedly fast read took it as two rolls for each "single shot action"* broken into "to hit" and "to penetrate" instead of one roll for each "single shot action"* per the original rules.

* which may be one round fired, a burst, or full auto - which I suppose on reflection is a complicated way of saying "attack"

That is the way I read it as well, it is adding another roll, isn't it?

Personally, the most confusing thing about CT combat is first blood, it's always been a trip explaining that.

 

[far-trader]

IMO, I find a lot of people don't understand certain things about guns. Some of it is very realistic, say at 10m, I will not miss with my CZ-85, Kimber, AK, Bushmaster, 12 gauge, etc.; maybe with my 30-06, but then at 100m, I won't miss with my 30-06. So if someone is just standing there, yes, they will probably get shot.

So, you're talking paper targets there? And an unaware target.

Actual adrenalin pumping, heart pounding, shooting another person is a different thing entirely, especially if they are shooting back.

You can't apply target shooting scores to modelling combat in a game with any veracity.

 

[McPerth]

That is the way I read it as well, it is adding another roll, isn't it?

Well, if you want to speed your game by lowering the time you devote to roll dice, just roll 4 dice (2 white and 2 red, as an example). White ones are to hit and red ones to penetrate. I guess you'll soon catch at first sight if you have done damage or not.

 

[far-trader]

That is the way I read it as well...

OK, then I misread you I thought you meant two shots as in double the ammo expended.

Personally, the most confusing thing about CT combat is first blood, it's always been a trip explaining that.

It's modelling shock. I thought it was brilliant. Though I thought there needed to be a counterpart to model the other extreme as well, where even if you should be down and out sometimes the body keeps going and fighting, at least briefly. I tried various little ideas over the years for that. None really felt right.

 

[McPerth]

Anyway, this system keeps one of the things I don't like about CT combat system:

with CT system (or the one suggested here) armor makes you more difficult to hit, but, if you're hit, the damage will be the same regardless you're unarmored or you wear a Battledress. So, if you're shot at with a PGMP (any version) you're either dead or unharmed (or very lucky), but the possibility to be wounded is nearly ruled out.

OTOH, if using AHL system (or Striker's, for what I know, I've never had opportunity to read it), if your armor is higher than the weapon's penetration, you cannot be killed...

 

[mike wightman]

IMO, I find a lot of people don't understand certain things about guns. Some of it is very realistic, say at 10m, I will not miss with my CZ-85, Kimber, AK, Bushmaster, 12 gauge, etc.; maybe with my 30-06, but then at 100m, I won't miss with my 30-06. So if someone is just standing there, yes, they will probably get shot.

Easy to say until someone is shooting back at you...

combat statistics are easily found on the internet - and the chance of actually hitting something in a real firefight is very low.

 

[mike wightman]

I really like the suggestion of allowing the players to make their own armour saving throws - anything that gives the players the illusion of being in control adds to the fun in my experience.

It's a good suggestion to just roll all 4 dice at the same time using two different colours.

For mooks that is.

For important NPCs I'd be making their armour rolls in secret...

 

[sabredog]

Anyway, this system keeps one of the things I don't like about CT combat system:

with CT system (or the one suggested here) armor makes you more difficult to hit, but, if you're hit, the damage will be the same regardless you're unarmored or you wear a Battledress. So, if you're shot at with a PGMP (any version) you're either dead or unharmed (or very lucky), but the possibility to be wounded is nearly ruled out.

OTOH, if using AHL system (or Striker's, for what I know, I've never had opportunity to read it), if your armor is higher than the weapon's penetration, you cannot be killed...

True....with CT it is and all or nothing sort of system, and the armor being factored in with the range has always bothered me. It makes some odd results, like for example, why would a 9mm SMG be able to penetrate TL-12+ Combat Armor, let alone Battle Dress on a 9+, with two chances to do that at medium range? Kind of defeats the point of the advanced armors. My 9mm Glock can't get through my IIIA vest even if I hold it right next to it and empty the magazine into it - that's the point of the armor. And that's not exactly a powered suit of futuristic armor designed to keep you alive in a world with personal railguns and energy weapons!

On the other hand, in Stirker's defense: that same SMG will not likely hurt the guy in TL-11 Combat Armor. With a penetration of 2 at effective range against 10 points of armor the player will need to first roll to hit , then roll 12+ on 2D6 to penetrate. And there won't be any damage with that roll. Might make the target duck, though, and that's sometimes useful in real life combat, too.

The gauss rifle is king (other than the P/FGMP) in the CT system, but in Striker it is in its proper place, IMHO. In fact, other than being rather unmerciful to players (harder to finesse the numbers rolled behind the screen) I prefer Striker as more realistic to CT, but I still modified Striker to make it more player-friendly by allowing them to decide before they roll whether or not they wanted to add their skill and attribute DM's to the "to hit" roll, or the "to penetrate" (and thus hurt the target) roll.

So they got the choice to either hit more often and risk not hurting the target so often, or maybe miss but if they hit the guy in BD with the FGMP hit the fuel line and do some damage to him.

 

[Dragoner]

So, you're talking paper targets there? And an unaware target.

Actual adrenalin pumping, heart pounding, shooting another person is a different thing entirely, especially if they are shooting back.

You can't apply target shooting scores to modelling combat in a game with any veracity.

I've shot a deer mid jump through it's lungs at 150m and I'm not the best shot in the world. How much shooting have you done?

Yes, you create a baseline by engineering standard and use it as a correction factor.

 

[Dragoner]

Easy to say until someone is shooting back at you...

combat statistics are easily found on the internet - and the chance of actually hitting something in a real firefight is very low.

I know, I've done the work for both history classes and wargames.

The first clue is to look at the range, the other is to understand they are talking firepower.

Without understanding how it works at all, is what it sounds like.

 

[Dragoner]

Well, if you want to speed your game by lowering the time you devote to roll dice, just roll 4 dice (2 white and 2 red, as an example). White ones are to hit and red ones to penetrate. I guess you'll soon catch at first sight if you have done damage or not.

Most of it is by a roller. The regular way is fine, people misinterpet how armor works, the game abstracts it, for sure. I use raps, two to center of mass then two to the head if the target is still moving, I have taught it to my wife and kids as well. Armor may stop the first two, it won't the second.

 

[far-trader]

I've shot a deer mid jump through it's lungs at 150m and I'm not the best shot in the world. How much shooting have you done?

Enough to know I wouldn't be shooting at a jumping deer at 150m even if I was the best shot in the world.

If you mean you shot at the deer and then it jumped that's a different story and you have to admit the luck involved. I'd be surprised if you didn't think at the time "Wow, that was a lucky shot." in that instance.

As to my experience, not a lot, and mostly target, and that ages ago. I was pretty good then, and expect it wouldn't take me long to recover the skill. However I am still well versed in the subject by my own standard and keep up with developments out of hobby interest. Again not so much in recent years, not to the level of "gun nut" interest I once indulged, and not as diverse as I once did.

 

[mike wightman]

I've shot a deer mid jump through it's lungs at 150m and I'm not the best shot in the world. How much shooting have you done?

Until the deer is shooting back at you with an AK47 please do not confuse your sport shooting with actual combat.