Easy Fix to CT Combat System -- Double Tap

[mike wightman]

Use the normal rules, plus the evading rule as I stated and it is easy to get a -12 dm. Combat = modified, target = correction factor, and the game can model it well. Often the only to hit I use is a natural 12 against those dm's, which is a 1 in 36 chance of hitting or put in a percentile from a rational number: 2.8%, which fits perfectly the statistical evaluation. The system works.

That's why I use it

 

[mike wightman]

Players have learned not to just jump into combat against professionals becasue not only do the pros carry better toys (which I know players covet so), but because the pros tend to be, well, professional. So the pros tend to know what they are doing and be a little better than the average character. That also discourages every session into turning into some old-school first-person shooter.

Most Traveller groups I've run/played include characters who have served in the Army or Marines - they are ex-professionals so know what to expect.

It's the players who tend to believe hollywood rather than reality...

 

[mike wightman]

Oh wait...shock is in the equation to a small degree - mainly the reasoning behind the why of that first hit being taken off one attribute all at once. But shock doesn't usually work that way in RL, it s a gradual thing so maybe someone should figure out how to complicate the wounding process with progressive damage than how to hit less often if you are interested in making it more "realistic"? They probably had that sort of thing in The Morrow Project or somewhere.

I long ago replaced the first hit rule with a critical rule that uses exactly the same resolution mechanic. If a player rolls a natural 12 to hit the first blood rule is used.

One addendum to this is if the player to roll a 12 to hit then it doesn't count as a crit/first hit unless they confirm it by rolling 8+.

 

[McPerth]

small arms statistically cause only 2-3% of battlefield casualties.

And have any of you figures abou how armor affects the casualties in combat?

Does it reduce the number of casualties? the number of serious wounds/fatalities in combat?

I don't, but those figures could be useful to know how to represent armor in CT (or any other Traveller version, for what is worth) combat rules.

 

[sabredog]

Most Traveller groups I've run/played include characters who have served in the Army or Marines - they are ex-professionals so know what to expect.

It's the players who tend to believe hollywood rather than reality...

Yeah, I know...but I have all these NPC's to run and can't run the player's characters for them, too. That's one of the reasons I tend to let the odds favor the players. The LBB1 system makes that easier without having it be obvious or upset things so much the suspension of disbelief is lost. Striker...not so much.

 

[sabredog]

And have any of you figures abou how armor affects the casualties in combat?

Does it reduce the number of casualties? the number of serious wounds/fatalities in combat?

I don't, but those figures could be useful to know how to represent armor in CT (or any other Traveller version, for what is worth) combat rules.

I would just hazard a guess here, but since armor development and implementation seems on the rise at a rapid pace in the military and law enforcement...yeah, it does reduce casualties and the severity of the injuries suffered. But I don't know the actual stats, I just go by the obvious.

 

[McPerth]

I would just hazard a guess here, but since armor development and implementation seems on the rise at a rapid pace in the military and law enforcement...yeah, it does reduce casualties and the severity of the injuries suffered. But I don't know the actual stats, I just go by the obvious.

So I thought, but sometimes what seems obvious ends up not being true (or at least not exact), so I asked, aside from seeing if the method suggested here is a good one to represent it in combat.

If it avoids casualties, it might be a good representation. It it lessens the severity of injuries, it doesn't. If, after all, it has none of those effects (being for faulty theory, for making the trooper/LEO too confident in armor, or for whatever reason), then the discussion should be another.

Historically, armor has been appearing and disappearing from military (both troops and ships) as on the pendulum law. Sometimes seen as the best solution, other times being seen as useless cost and encumbrance, depending mostly (I guess) on the ability of offensive power to penetrate it vs the loss of freedom of action and cost it represents.

 

[Dragoner]

And have any of you figures abou how armor affects the casualties in combat?

Does it reduce the number of casualties? the number of serious wounds/fatalities in combat?

I don't, but those figures could be useful to know how to represent armor in CT (or any other Traveller version, for what is worth) combat rules.

In most cases, armor increases survivability when one becomes a casualty. It is only hollywood where someone is shot with a rifle and walks away. With the heavier armors, such as combat armor, it is more effective against more primitive weapons, and the gauss rifle, true to every measure has a counter measure, defeats all armor. A statistical evaluation of all the armors I have not done.

 

[sabredog]

So I thought, but sometimes what seems obvious ends up not being true (or at least not exact), so I asked, aside from seeing if the method suggested here is a good one to represent it in combat.

If it avoids casualties, it might be a good representation. It it lessens the severity of injuries, it doesn't. If, after all, it has none of those effects (being for faulty theory, for making the trooper/LEO too confident in armor, or for whatever reason), then the discussion should be another.

Historically, armor has been appearing and disappearing from military (both troops and ships) as on the pendulum law. Sometimes seen as the best solution, other times being seen as useless cost and encumbrance, depending mostly (I guess) on the ability of offensive power to penetrate it vs the loss of freedom of action and cost it represents.

In LE armor has proven again and again (and in my personal thrilling experience) to reduce casualties and limit the severity of injuries. Proper tactics to take advantage of how armor works is as important as wearing it in the first place. That's something most people don't understand, and I imagine that applies in the military, too.

In the military, with motorized troops heavy armor is less of a hindrance than it once was. With the newer materials it's made from it is better, lighter, and more flexible so is is less hindering even on foot. It's still heavy, but the more modern sets, like Interceptor and the newer IOTV are fully integrated load-bearing systems that are not only easier to wear but help the soldier carry all his gear. When I was in the USAF back in the day they didn't have body armor in the military except those old chunky flak vests from the 'Nam days. And those weighed a short ton. When I recently tried on a friend's Interceptor vest it was like the thing was wearing me - heavy, but comfortable and now much worse than my IIIA with inserts. Just more wraparound and easier load distribution. I'm sure you can find plenty of stats online about how effective armor is or not.

That all said, the race between effective stop-everything armor that still allows one to move and the easier task of making weapons capable of defeating it will continue. Even in the imaginary world of Traveller, not even batteldress saves you from a plasma gun.

 

[tbeard1999]

A Defense of the First Hit Rule/CS3

I like it a lot because it allows the first hit to take you out of a fight, without necessarily killing you. It allows battles to end without everyone on the losing side being killed (way too common in many RPGs). This enhances drama IMHO and is a Good Thing.

Unfortunately, the CT combat system makes it way too easy to hit (particularly with Book 4 weapons and characters). When this is combined with the first hit rule, the first to shoot usually wins. Not dramatic at all.

Hence the double tap system, which decouples hitting and penetrating.

My current CT combat system, CS3, is really just a descendant of the CT. http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=17031

It uses a 2d6 to hit roll. If the roll is high enough, multiple hits can occur. Each hit must penetrate armor -- roll 1d6 + armor. If it penetrates, damage is allocated per CT. Since you roll 1d6 per hit to penetrate, you can roll all penetrations together. For instance, TL7 rigid armor has an armor value of 6. A TL7 assault rifle has a penetration of 2 and damage of 3d. Each hit needs to roll a 4+ to penetrate.

If the penetration roll is a natural "6", the armor is halved, which allows for hitting weak spots areas. And of course, if the campaign has a high John Woo Factor, cinematic effects can occur.

 

[sabredog]

I like it a lot because it allows the first hit to take you out of a fight, without necessarily killing you. It allows battles to end without everyone on the losing side being killed (way too common in many RPGs). This enhances drama IMHO and is a Good Thing.

Unfortunately, the CT combat system makes it way too easy to hit (particularly with Book 4 weapons and characters). When this is combined with the first hit rule, the first to shoot usually wins. Not dramatic at all.

I agree with your first point, and it has saved many a rash player's rear by getting pasted good in the first round and thus keeping him out of the fight and allowing sometimes cooler heads (or smarter) to prevail.

But while I also agree that the CT system with its all-or-nothing aspect makes it seem like the first to shoot wins and that's all there is - I think that also has to do with what you emphasize when running the game. It's all contextual: when I was younger combat in my games was more prevalent...when my players are older and/or more into the role-playing of the game it is less so, and becomes (due to that who shoots first wins thing) more about combat being the last resort.

So while I dislike the same things you dislike about it, which was what I liked about Striker, I came back to just the basic LBB1 system with very small modifications (just new weapons and some armor mods to reflect the difference between TL-10 Combat and TL-15 Combat let alone 13-15 BD) because it wasn't so lethal that combat was a sure thing before it even began (Striker) but it was dangerous enough that players would try to avoid it if possible. So that actually added drama and tension, too.

 

[Dragoner]

I think it is misinterpetation of the rules, unless one side has surprise, combat is simultaneous, so there is not a first shot and with the dm's (plus one minor tweak) it is hard to hit.

 

[mike wightman]

The rules are pretty clear - the first time you are hit the damage is applied to one characteristic.

All wounds are resolved at the end of the round by the way.

I consider this rule to be totally unrealistic and so use it as a critical hit result instead.

 

[Dragoner]

The wound applied does not effect the shot made, so in effect, two could shoot each other.

 

[mike wightman]

Yup, damage is resolved after everyone has rolled to hit. So both sides could end up unconscious...

sounds more like a combat system from monty python

 

[sabredog]

I never used the simultaneous damage rule for that reason - and it doesn't work like that in real life unless both sides were to enter opposites ends of the same hallway firing while firing as they enter.

If two guys were to fire at each other who have the same "speed" as determined by above then, yes, there is the chance they might take each other out at the same time, but that sort of thing might happen in RL, just not en mass. It rarely happens anyway since once one side slaps leather everyone dives for cover and blasts away at the closest target.

So....if neither side is surprised by the other I go in order of Dex + skill with the chosen weapon and everyone has to write their target down on a piece of paper for the first round (I give the players to the count of five to pick a target number) - after that, anyone left standing gets to start coordinating with the others and they can call their shots as they go. But the first one is a total free-for-all and this simulates the wild lead-slinging in the initial phase of a gunfight.

I have had it happen often, though, that several players will all choose the same first target (usually because that's the closest or most dangerous-looking guy) and blast him to pieces while the other bad guys then run in terror or take the opportunity to do the same. It get's kind of Sergio Leone at times.

 

[Dragoner]

Two people rolling natural 12's at the same time is pretty rare, people do sometimes shoot each other at the same time, so it isn't unheard of. Doesn't occur much in the game.

 

[Carlobrand]

... In the famous Gunfight at the OK Corral, 20-30 shots were fired, mostly from pistols at 10 feet or less. There were 9 hits (not including the shotgun blast that hit Tom McClaury), implying an overall hit rate of abour 30-50%. However, the real "to hit" percentage might be lower, as Billy Clanton was hit 5 times in rapid succession (he may not have been dodging effectively after the first hit) and Tom McClaury was shot once while collapsing from the shotgun blast. [Assuming Billy Clanton was a "sitting duck" after, say, the second hit, the overall hit rate drops to 15-25%...]
...
Frank Chadwick, in "Lethality in Roleplaying Small Arms Systems", analyzes a number of gun battles between US police and Mexican gangs on the US/Mexico border. They were using revolvers and a few shotguns. Some interesting conclusions:

--US police fired 90 shots and hit with 29.

--a "...total of fifteen officers and suspects were wounded ...and they were hit by a total of 32 bullets. ...

Sooooo ... game setting says base roll of 8+ on 2d6, with a +1 for the weapon, assume +1 to +2 skill. Short range is within 5 meters, medium 6 to 50 meters; assume short range: +2. Final to hit 3+ to 4+.

But ... the two documented instances imply something more like an 8+ or 9+ final in the heat of the fight; assuming the officers are decent shots on the target range, they suffered more than a 50% drop in accuracy under firefight conditions.

 

[Dragoner]

Most of the police shootings at the border in Chadwick's article were at night, dm -6 per rules. Much of the OK Corral was probably point shooting with notoriously inaccurate weapons.

 

[far-trader]

Classic Traveller's baseline is aimed shots from a relatively stationary position at a relatively stationary lethal opponent. Not snapshots, on the move, at moving targets, etc.. All of which is more realistic for a combat scenario even though CT LBB1 only had one of them as a DM, Evade for a -1 to -4 to be hit but no attack possible for the evading party. Other publications had more DM options though.